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M Helsdon

Swords of Central Genertela

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2 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

Not sure if you were looking for feedback/polite disagreement; but a couple of points.

1) Light Orlanthi would probably use a spear more commonly than a sword due to cost and expense of a sword.

2) Sword Orlanthi probably would use the sword before spear due to the prestige of the expensive sword that they have, and as its a warriors weapon rather than a common weapon.

This is derived from the canonical information in Wyrms Footnotes #15 in an article by Greg Stafford.

Edited by M Helsdon

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19 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

This is derived from the canonical information in Wyrms Footnotes #15 in an article by Greg Stafford.

and Greg never got anything wrong or changed his mind on anything?

I'm not sure if all the old Wyrms Footnotes are still canon as such?  I wait to be corrected on that one.

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7 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

I'm not sure if all the old Wyrms Footnotes are still canon as such?  I wait to be corrected on that one.

They are if they agree with your point and are not if they disagree with your point. 

Some information in old WFs are just plain wrong, some things have changed over the years, but most of it is still valid.

Edited by soltakss

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10 minutes ago, soltakss said:

They are if they agree with your point and are not if they disagree with your point. 

Some information in old WFs are just plain wrong, some things have changed over the years, but most of it is still valid.

lol ....

The view stated is counter intuitive to all the real world information i get,

Skirmishes tended to be poorer warriors without the quality kit, heavier infantry tends to be more professional warriors with better kit.

Thus swords being better kit are more likely to be used by sword thanes  than skirmishes. Glorantha may vary for various reasons , but its counter intuitive compared to RW history.

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22 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

This is derived from the canonical information in Wyrms Footnotes #15 in an article by Greg Stafford.

 

2 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

lol ....

The view stated is counter intuitive to all the real world information i get,

Skirmishes tended to be poorer warriors without the quality kit, heavier infantry tends to be more professional warriors with better kit.

Thus swords being better kit are more likely to be used by sword thanes  than skirmishes. Glorantha may vary for various reasons , but its counter intuitive compared to RW history.

The information is, indeed, canonical in that it is by Greg, although anyone who has been Gregged knows just how much that means...

The article also lists it as the primary weapon IIRC (lots of material still in boxes following house move), which does not imply that it would be used by skirmishers, but is the weapon of choice for the wealthy and well equipped.  IRW I don't think many skirmishers carried swords until organised units of Spanish foot in the early medieval, but again, open to correction.  Most skirmishers carried distance weapons, light shields if any, wore little armour, and went unencumbered by a hand weapon heavier than a small hatchet, club or knife.

Which description certainly makes them unlikely to be the choice of your average player even if not a combat-monster. 

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7 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

lol ....

The view stated is counter intuitive to all the real world information i get,

Skirmishes tended to be poorer warriors without the quality kit, heavier infantry tends to be more professional warriors with better kit.

Thus swords being better kit are more likely to be used by sword thanes  than skirmishes. Glorantha may vary for various reasons , but its counter intuitive compared to RW history.

Um, no it isn't, because in fyrd warfare, whether terrestrial or Gloranthan, more of the fyrdmen and women will have cheaper weapons, such as spears. Swords are high cost prestige weapons. In a clan, only the thanes (and then primarily weaponthanes and housecarls) will have expensive armour and weapons, and they are the clan professionals - a wealthy tribal king probably has no more than thirty to fifty well-armed housecarls (equivalent to heavy infantry or cavalry) in their service.

In our world, for example, only wealthy Saxons and Vikings had metal helmets (very few have been found, and not many more probably existed) and finds of spearheads well outnumber expensive swords or axes. But the less well equipped still fought in the shield-wall, and outnumbered the best-equipped.

Context is everything:

Light Orlanthi tend to herd or hunt more than farm, and so will tend to use hunting weapons over expensive ones.

Sword Orlanthi herd, farm, and hunt, and fight incessantly. The wealthiest will own swords.

4 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

The article also lists it as the primary weapon IIRC (lots of material still in boxes following house move), which does not imply that it would be used by skirmishers, but is the weapon of choice for the wealthy and well equipped.  IRW I don't think many skirmishers carried swords until organised units of Spanish foot in the early medieval, but again, open to correction.  Most skirmishers carried distance weapons, light shields if any, wore little armour, and went unencumbered by a hand weapon heavier than a small hatchet, club or knife.

Very true. In real world terms, Gloranthan skirmishers, probably have the tertiary weapons (javelins, slings, bows) as the primary seem to be the most common, and the secondary (mostly) the preferred elite weapons.

This is why, in part, the Lunar army, well-armed, well-equipped professionals would beat any Orlanthi fighting them on their own terms (ignoring the massive Lunar advantage in tactical magic). After the Dragonkill, and the plundering of Lunar troops and depots, Argrath's army suddenly received a wealth of state-of-the-art armour and weapons. Much like in real history the victors plunder the dead and have an opportunity to uplift their equipment.

Edited by M Helsdon

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7 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

I'm not sure if all the old Wyrms Footnotes are still canon as such?  I wait to be corrected on that one.

WF#15 was published in 2012. Not exactly old...

Edited by M Helsdon

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3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Context is everything:

Light Orlanthi tend to herd or hunt more than farm, and so will tend to use hunting weapons over expensive ones.

I'd agree thus I was surprised to see see sword as secondary and spear as tertiary, as spears are hunting weapons and sword are expensive ones.

Quote

Sword Orlanthi herd, farm, and hunt, and fight incessantly. The wealthiest will own swords.

Agreed on the points again, but we seem to disagree on the outcome. Depends what you defined as primary and secondary. There will be more spears than swords but swords will be the weapon of choice of professional warriors.

Also depends how you define light Orlanthi and Sword Orlanthi, i assume light orlanthi were skirmishes and sword orlanthi were thanes, is there another definition?

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11 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

I'd agree thus I was surprised to see see sword as secondary and spear as tertiary, as spears are hunting weapons and sword are expensive ones.

You'll find that in terrestrial warfare spears have been more widely used in war than swords.

As far as Light Orlanthi are concerned, as hunters they mostly use the bow, with swords being prestige weapons, with spears coming a third. To some extent they appear to reverse the usual pattern, in that most of their potential fighters appear to be skirmishers, not fyrdmen but given that they are not wealthy, that isn't surprising.

11 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

Agreed on the points again, but we seem to disagree on the outcome. Depends what you defined as primary and secondary. There will be more spears than swords but swords will be the weapon of choice of professional warriors.

In Orlanthi clan and tribal fyrds, professionals are in the minority, unless the chief or king hires mercenaries.

11 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:


Also depends how you define light Orlanthi and Sword Orlanthi, i assume light orlanthi were skirmishes and sword orlanthi were thanes, is there another definition?

It's a way of classifying the different groups of settlers in Dragon Pass. Light Orlanthi are so named because they are mostly lightly armed skirmishers; Sword Orlanthi are mostly from Heortland, and relatively wealthy. You'll have to buy the magazine (PDF available) for the full details.

Edited by M Helsdon

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A few more thoughts...

Favored Weapons

Preferred

Formations

Group

Primary

Secondary

Tertiary

Dark Orlanthi

Club or Mace

Sling

Javelin

Shield-wall

Skirmishers

Earth Tarsh

Spear

Axe

Bow

Shield-wall

Skirmishers

Light Orlanthi1

Bow

Sword

Spear

Skirmishers

Shield-wall

Old Hendriki

Spear

Sword

Javelin or Sling

Shield-wall

Skirmishers

Sword Orlanthi

Spear

Sword

Javelin

Shield-wall

Skirmishers

Tarshite

Spear

Short Sword

Bow

Shield-wall

Skirmishers

Yelmalion2

Bow

Long Spear

Javelin

Skirmishers

Phalanx

1.        So named for their weapons, not any Solar associations.

2.        In Sun Dome County the militia form the auxiliaries of a Templar regiment.

 

In this context, primary denotes the weapons most commonly carried by members of the fyrd. Swords and axes are more expensive than spears or clubs and are usually the preserve of weaponthanes and housecarls. Shield-walls in which spears predominate are effectively proto-phalanxes.

 

The Orlanthi of Dragon Pass

 

Class

Equipment

Fights in…

Wergild

Wealth

High King

Metal armor and helmet, shield, favored weapons, horses or chariots.

Shield-wall

2000

50+

Eorl

600

30

Tribal King or Queen

200

30+

Chieftain

Metal armor and helmet, shield, favored weapons, sometimes a horse.

100

15+

Thane

50

5

Housecarl

50

5

Carl

Leather armor, leather or metal helmet, shield, often only the cheapest favored weapons.

Shield-wall

rear ranks

25

1

Cottar

Skirmishing weapons.

Skirmisher

10

 

Thralls

Servants and bearers.

 

 

 

Orlanthi Social Class and Warfare

Edited by M Helsdon
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Orlanthi weapons by social rank:

The rank of carl isn't limited to the head of the household, but applies also to the other adults of a household. (I am not so sure about the social rank of a thane here, though.) The household's wealth and weaponry thus gets divided among its contributors to warband and fyrd.

 

 

Where did you get the rank of an eorl from? I used Anglo-Saxon terminology in my early explorations of Heortland, including the archaic form eorl, but that never was anything official. Apart from the place-name Eorlsbroch in History of the Heortling Peoples I couldn't find it in any Glorantha publication.

 

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10 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Where did you get the rank of an eorl from? I used Anglo-Saxon terminology in my early explorations of Heortland, including the archaic form eorl, but that never was anything official. Apart from the place-name Eorlsbroch in History of the Heortling Peoples I couldn't find it in any Glorantha publication.

King of Sartar p147 the Mularik Fragment

Quote

After the second year the nobles of Tarsh came and Eorl
Josdantor was their spokesman.

 

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The rank of carl isn't limited to the head of the household, but applies also to the other adults of a household. (I am not so sure about the social rank of a thane here, though.) The household's wealth and weaponry thus gets divided among its contributors to warband and fyrd.

I know. A carl's household isn't very wealthy.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Where did you get the rank of an eorl from? I used Anglo-Saxon terminology in my early explorations of Heortland, including the archaic form eorl, but that never was anything official. Apart from the place-name Eorlsbroch in History of the Heortling Peoples I couldn't find it in any Glorantha publication.

Dragon Pass and the Wilds, Stafford and Friends, Chaosium.

King of Sartar, Stafford, Moon Design.

I know the former is out-of-date, but for a Royal Army (as compared with a Tribal or Clan army) intermediate officers with royal authority would be required. As the term is in canon, in KoS, I used it instead of making something up from scratch.

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Here are the mini versions of sketches of various Gloranthan warriors/soldiers...

[Note: the images are only roughly to the same scale, and reins and harness for mounts not the final version.]

 

Edited by M Helsdon
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On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 5:18 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

I assumed it was intentionally small in order to act as a teaser, since all the previous images were removed.

It's a teaser. Actual versions of the images appear either twice or four or five times that size.

For context, here's a sample page. Note that the text has been altered.

[Earlier images were removed after the antics of a non-uz troll nearly caused me to leave the forum.]

 

Edited by M Helsdon
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2 hours ago, JanPospisil said:

Is it super tiny just for me?

Just a teaser. There are two 'finished' versions of these sketches: one twice the size and one much larger, often with shading.

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On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 8:10 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

Love the horses. Can't wait to see what all this'll come together to. Thank you for sharing. :D

These sketches resulted from a review comment that there needed to be illustrations labelled to display the pieces of armour. I couldn't afford to pay a professional artist to do these, so had to sketch out a few. So the first four were drawn (the first four on the top line) but didn't really show a very wide variety. Then it was obvious that animal armour needed an illustration. A few more were drawn, and slotted into the Regional Warfare chapter, and then it was obvious that more were needed for the Battlefield chapter for the components of a shield-wall or phalanx... You see where this was going? Meanwhile, the smaller versions were used to illustrate the Army Lists.

The whole project started from a chat at Dragonmeet two years ago, and has just... grown into a 300+ page document which now regularly crashes Word. Excerpts were due to appear in the next Wyrms Footnotes, but may have been dropped to reduce the page count.

 

Edited by M Helsdon
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On ‎11‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 3:18 PM, Steve said:

You drew this yourself, Martin? Wow, great work.

These sketches are made using pen and ink, and then digital corrections and shading using Paint and Word (very primitive). The latest is a composite of three sketches: zebra, harness and rider.

A very long time ago, I used to draw, but arthritis and lack of time meant that there are the first drawings I've made in about twenty or thirty years. Some of my very old stuff can be seen here:

https://www.deviantart.com/atlancalli

Below is the Zebra rider 'in context' - unfortunately the text about lancers is on the facing page. The armor is derived from Jan's illustration; I did deliberate making it striped black and white or 'chequerboard' but thought it might be too much. The Dacian style helmet seemed to fit - I experimented giving it a black-and-white crest and decided it didn't need it.

 

 

Edited by M Helsdon
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