Cult Initiates

[Aprewett]

Quick questions:

i know one of my players will want to play a Sorcerer

I know I can play it my way, but I notice no Sorcerer occupation in the Sartar book, why is that?

Pg 143 says so long as you have one rune high enough that is associated with a god you can Initiate into that cult.

we were experimenting last night with a character (greenhorn style),a Sorcerer and when picking runes he did not pick truth. We then looked at the Lhankor Mhy cult and you must have truth to join. So just now I am doing some reading into cults and I came across the passage on pg 143. 

So which would be correct?

it also appears fairly ungamable to be an initiate of that god, as they are bound to scribing and study, it does mention some vague piece about being recognised as a full member after the initiation but does not detail what rank etc that is.? What are the duties etc.

[davecake]

There essentially are very few sorcerers in Sartar, and it isn't part of the local culture. While Lhankor Mhy worshippers often use sorcery, they aren't thought of as professional sorcerers but as sages (if urban) or lawspeakers (if in a traditional clan). 

A specialist sorcerer would be unusual, and considered very suspect for their use of foreign magic (the Lunars employ sorcerers,  but the Lunars are already suspect foreigners). If Sartarites had a sorcerer living among them for some reason, they'd probably be considered a weird form of sage.

And yes, playing an average Lhankor Mhy studious scholar in a major temple is a bit dull. But your PC will be different. Either they will belong to a more interesting sub cult (the Wild Sages (p165) are useful for more traditional RPG campaigns), or you may be a Lawspeaker for the clan and often asked by the chief to investigate problems facing the clan, or they may a quiet scholar at the start of the game who then gets caught up in great events and forced out of the quiet seclusion by circumstances.

[David Scott]

37 minutes ago, Aprewett said:

Quick questions:

i know one of my players will want to play a Sorcerer

I know I can play it my way, but I notice no Sorcerer occupation in the Sartar book, why is that?

The Sartar book is about the Orlanthi. The only acceptable sorcery is through Lhankor Mhy. So the occupation is not available. There are snippets throughout the book showing the Orlanthi dislike of sorcery - Godless Magic:

Quote

Who is your clan’s Ancient Enemy? Zzabur the Atheist, who tried to kill Orlanth with sorcery.

Great Renvald [...] Proud Renvald bore the Blue Sky Shield, which blocked the evil spells of the sorcerers [...] We offer sacrifices to him on Sword Day when we fear sorcery.

The Three Otherworlds - [...] “There are two other places, The first is the Inside World, and it is where the perversity of sorcery comes from.

 

[Richard S.]

He could rework his runes and take Truth, then become a wild sage like davecake said, or he could take Full Moon for his element and initiate to Irripi Ontor, who also uses sorcery, but is a bit more active of a cult. A final option is that he could be from a sorcery school from Heortland or God Forgot, in which case the rules for them aren't explained in HQ:G but are in the HQ2 core book. Basically it's like a cult but your status is based off of your rating in the school's central grimoire rather than a rune affinity. Also, for pure sorcery schools, it's more common for grimoires to be either stand-alone abilities or breakouts from a relationship like "Apprentice/Adept/Mage of [school]." Advancement for sorcery schools goes Apprentice -> Adept -> Mage, which is functionally similar to Lay Worshipper -> Initiate -> Devotee, except apprentices spend all their time studying their school's central grimoire and have no time for adventuring unless accompanying their master.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Aprewett said:

Pg 143 says so long as you have one rune high enough that is associated with a god you can Initiate into that cult.

Generally yes

1 hour ago, Aprewett said:

we were experimenting last night with a character (greenhorn style),a Sorcerer and when picking runes he did not pick truth. We then looked at the Lhankor Mhy cult and you must have truth to join. So just now I am doing some reading into cults and I came across the passage on pg 143. 

So which would be correct?

Both. Lhankor Mhy is one of the many exceptions.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Aprewett said:

it also appears fairly ungamable to be an initiate of that god, as they are bound to scribing and study,

Check out Jorjar Latish, one of the example characters in Paris GTA. Jorjar is a PC in @Jeff's campaign and certainly not boring. Every group needs a LM initiate to help with stuff!

1 hour ago, Aprewett said:

it does mention some vague piece about being recognised as a full member after the initiation but does not detail what rank etc that is.?

Initiate = Apprentice

after 6 years Initiate = Full member of the Temple

Priest = Devotee = Grey Sage

1 hour ago, Aprewett said:

What are the duties etc

What ever helps your game. "So you're going to the Rainbow Mounds then, get as much info on Newtlings as you can. I want a full report when you return". Snakepipe Hollow has an adventure just for a LM! 

There is a more up to date version of the cult in HQ Glorantha.

[Joerg]

Urban Orlanthi often have access to guild magics, which often are classified as sorcery. In Orlanthi society, certain knowledge based professions like perfumers, alchemists and of course scribes are usually initiates of the Knowing God.

In earlier editions of Heroquest, guild members could access "scripture blessings", a sort of specialized low sorcery augments for their profession, if they qualified as orderlies. This approach was given up when HeroQuest 2 became the default system, but quite a lot of guild magic remains sorcerous in nature. But the practitioners aren't named sorcerers. Instead, they are master crafters.

If you play a Lhankor Mhy initiate by the book, you either spend a long time as some sage's apprentice, or you skip the apprentice part, dedicate yourself to Lhankor Mhy and become a devotee and sage, doing your own research and library collecting work. Doing research will mean you join a group of hopefully not too brainless folk that accompany you out in the field.

 

Not all initiates of Lhankor Mhy end up as librarians. As I mentioned, quite a lot work in specialized crafts or trades that rely on knowledge. While these don't make adventurers as a rule, there are valid exceptions - whether perfumer, alchemist, or jeweler, they will need knowledgable folk doing field research in order to get high quality raw material. Scribes and linguists will be required to decipher ancient inscriptions that might lead to lost artifacts, like e.g. the Battle Banner of the EWF.

 

One of my favourite characters worships Lhankor Mhy as an initiate, he is a jeweler by trade, a guild master in Karse, when he doesn't gallivant about on the horses he and his Redaldan wife from around Jillaro (or rather their retainers) breed on a stead a little to the north of Karse, or on board of one of the ships of his far-flung Choralinthor Bay Pelaskite family - all that under the cover of having to obtain new exotic material for his guild, which he usually does, too.

He misspent part of his youthful years as an apprentice chasing the Humakti way before becoming disillusioned when his Humakti mentor was killed in a most dishonorable way. Later on he encountered Tosti Runefriend during the one year quarantine in Lur Nop in Kralorela, and decided to join Lhankor Mhy's sword sage subcult. His travels in Kralorela with the Jonstown sage served as most of his apprenticehood, until they were separated while escaping from some research trip that had run afoul of a local dragon shrine and he had to get back to Karse on his own (meeting the Redhair tribe of Pent on the way). His guild duties assaying gems and jewelry fall very much into the cult's portfolio, at least in urban environments. He lacks the knack for sorcery, though, and expresses his ties to the truth rune mostly through a personal code of honor and an unsatiable curiosity rather than through upstanding citizenship. (Some Pentans called him "Tricks with Truths". The Lanbril gang in Karse might subscribe to this.)

 

 

[JonL]

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

Generally yes

Both. Lhankor Mhy is one of the many exceptions.

I'll confess to finding it limiting. With Law being required for the sorcery, that's 2/3 locked down for starting characters. That excludes a lot of interesting combinations. 

 

6 hours ago, Aprewett said:

I know I can play it my way, but I notice no Sorcerer occupation in the Sartar book, why is that?

There is a Sartar Magical Union style Warlock among the HQG professions. The flavor text along with it seems to skew closer to an EWF revival than to sorcerery, but does use the term "magician" repeatedly.

[Aprewett]

Thanks all, again.

i think we might try for a start demo game next week.

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, JonL said:

There is a Sartar Magical Union style Warlock among the HQG professions.

Yes, when Argrath began putting together new magical units, he brought together all sorts of weird magical traditions.  These might include shamans, traditional devotees or priests, mystics, and sorcerers.  The latter might include:  Lhankor Mhy (and there are a number of schools and traditions among the sage god - I would say some of the temples in Nochet could be based on the Law Rune rather than the Truth rune), Esvulari 'priests' who use sorcery as common spells, sinister atheistic Ingareens who live in the Left Arm Islands, black Arkati (ala Sir Ethilrist), and more.  There are already Rokari in Nochet before the Great Winter, and that population grows with the Nolos diaspora as the King of Seshnela advances against them.

[soltakss]

Don't forget that Sartar borders on the Holy Country, where sorcerers are accepted. A Holy Country sorcerer with kinship ties to Sartar is not completely unreasonable and could provide some interesting roleplaying situations.

[Joerg]

There are plenty urban dwellers in the Holy Country with Sartarite background - roughly a quarter of the population of Nochet, a prominent Sartarite royal was active in Karse, Prince Temertain was dug up in the small Seapolis knowledge temple. These people may qualify as kin even though they maintain only tenuous connections with their birth clans, and their offspring will have been immersed in Kethaelan urban culture, with access to sorcery.

Unfortunately, the Esvulari sorcery is tied to Esvulari families, and they are now described as strictly caste-endogamous folk, so there isn't that much chance for their sorcery to leak out. God Forgot sorcery might be easier to access and learn, through some trade apprenticehood with the rather few God Forgotten inhabiting other Kethaelan cities. Other Malkioni sorcery is available in a couple of mercenary bands which have their own wizards.

Finally, there is the Book of Belintar, a sorcerous grimoire (similar to that of Pavis) lesser copies of which can be used by Kethaelan sorcerers devoted to the idea of the Holy Country. Many of these will be Lhankor Mhy initiates rather than Malkioni-like sorcerers.

The issue of guild spells (spell indicating magical knowledge, not a magical charm or a divine manifestation of runic power) hasn't seen any official treatment under HQ2 or HQG, and even less so in any incarnation of RQ. RQ2 did have products of guild sorcery, in alchemical potions that conveyed some magical effect, similar to Battle Magic. The system didn't call this sorcery, though.

Dwarf sorcery is another way, about as jealously guarded as are dwarf inventions like gun powder. Apostate dwarves may use their sorcery, but wouldn't teach it.

[Ian Cooper]

On 07/04/2017 at 0:05 PM, Aprewett said:

Quick questions:

i know one of my players will want to play a Sorcerer

I know I can play it my way, but I notice no Sorcerer occupation in the Sartar book, why is that?

Pg 143 says so long as you have one rune high enough that is associated with a god you can Initiate into that cult.

we were experimenting last night with a character (greenhorn style),a Sorcerer and when picking runes he did not pick truth. We then looked at the Lhankor Mhy cult and you must have truth to join. So just now I am doing some reading into cults and I came across the passage on pg 143. 

So which would be correct?

it also appears fairly ungamable to be an initiate of that god, as they are bound to scribing and study, it does mention some vague piece about being recognised as a full member after the initiation but does not detail what rank etc that is.? What are the duties etc.

Old thread but...

Lhankor Mhy's bread and butter is scribes for sure, as they know the secret of reading and writing, but Wild Sages, as David Cake mentions above can be the best way to go for adventurers. Think Indiana Jones, or even Gandalf as your model there. Of course, there will be some tension with the initiates who work away in the scriptorium, but that is the price of living a life 'in the field'.

As discussed, also remember the Warlock in HQG. The Warlock is about exploring magical practices considered taboo or odd amongst the Sartarites such as draconic magic, and Nysloariean illumination, but also God Learner sorcery. If you want a character who dabbles in arcane foreign texts and is trying to teach themselves the sorcerous secrets of the MIddle Sea Empire, then the Hero Wars is the place for them.

Always remember that PCs are exceptional, the rule breakers, not the conformists.

As for runes, it is worth having a discussion about what cult you want to play, at the time a player chooses their PCs runes. You can end up with some difficulties that you might want to reverse i.e. Humakti not taking the death rune etc if you don't have one eye on the 'end game' of character conception.

I'm considering a sort of 'playbook' that helps folks navigate these choices, when I get some time.

 

[Dimbyd]

Lhankor Mhy have a wider role than an equivalent to CoC's librarian or even Indiana Jones. They can be librarians or historians or archelogists or war poets/ artists or tactical advisors for war or spies or documentarians in world of limited literacy or mystical oracles - see the HQ feat for the cult (very Lightbringerish). You can also see them as the Law and law maker or the squalid thief. They could be obsessed with dragonewts and the EWF or with the undead (and end up as an necromancer?). They're closer to Timbuktu 's libraries than your local libraries...

 

Oh, how I long to play a Wild Sage again.....

[jajagappa]

On 5/22/2017 at 7:38 AM, Ian Cooper said:

it also appears fairly ungamable to be an initiate of that god, as they are bound to scribing and study

Every clan has a Lawspeaker (and likely another learning those ways), and there are also those who keep and recite the lineage of the bloodlines, and many of them are initiates of LM who has kept and maintained the knowledge of Law and Justice.  Cities and some temples and likely important merchants have scribes who record business transactions and legal records, and they are mostly initiates of LM.  These lawspeakers and scribes might get involved in any number of activities important to the clan or city as designated by the clan chief or city authorities.  Simply performing their roles satisfies their obligations to their god, though they likely must travel to the closest LM temple at least once per year to renew their vows and participate in important rituals.

[Noita]

My character, Deep Derik, is a Lhankhor Mhy Sword Sage, which seems to mean that he steals stuff, raids dungeons, lies, makes bad prose and fails in all things romantic. Oh yeah he has a sword too.

[soltakss]

15 hours ago, Iskallor said:

My character, Deep Derik, is a Lhankhor Mhy Sword Sage, which seems to mean that he steals stuff, raids dungeons, lies, makes bad prose and fails in all things romantic. Oh yeah he has a sword too.

In our RQ2/RQ3 campaign, Brankist Farlow was a Sword Sage. His background was in the mercenaries, so he saw himself as a Cavalier with a twiddly moustache and shaped beard, who told long, boring stories about his time fighting the Lunars "When I was in the cavalry ...", wrote long boring poetry and could never, ever destroy a scroll. He was an associate Priest of Orlanth Adventurous, as this tied in with being a Sword Sage, but LM came first. He went off the rails a little bit when he took the mantle of a Thanatri Hero (His rationale was that All Knowledge belongs to Lhankor Mhy and that having a LM Priest in the position would weaken Thanatar).

[davecake]

On 09/04/2017 at 2:09 AM, Joerg said:

Dwarf sorcery is another way, about as jealously guarded as are dwarf inventions like gun powder. Apostate dwarves may use their sorcery, but wouldn't teach it.

A bit of tangent, but - Not only do I believe that this is not strictly true, but Heretical dwarves teaching their sorcery to humans pretty much exactly describes the Flintnail cult (who teach a Rock Mostali grimoire to all cult members). Teaching dwarf sorcery to humans is certainly something an Orthodox Mostali wouldn't do, but it's clearly a thing that Openhandist Mostali would consider. 

This doesn't, of course, mean that they'll teach sorcery to just anybody, or do it without recompense. The Flintnail cult human sorcerers are still forbidden to teach it to outsiders.