Guide to Glorantha Group Read Week 2 - Hsunchen

[David Scott]

Hsunchen Section thread here!

Main thread: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6467-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-2/

Week 2 errors: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6432-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-2-errors/

Here's one of the sketches for the Hsunchen illustration by Jeff Laubenstein.

Edited July 4, 2017 by David Scott

[jrutila]

So, Fronela seems to be the place to go if you want to meet some Hsunchen people. And there seems to be pretty straight forward beasts (at least in the major influences) that it is easy to think how they would act. I remember there was a RuneQuest scenario (I don't remember the name of it) way back then that introduced these turtle people on an island. Nice to match them now to represent Hsunchen.

The relation with their totem animals is interesting. After reading "Beast Brothers" and "Food" I am not sure what I would answer if someone would ask for example do Uncolings eat reindeer? So is it forbidden or seen as a way to fully .. hmm, utilize... your brother. On the other hand for example Rathori are wearing a bear hide and others also wear their totem animals.

Picture of the Hsunchen hunter and shaman is really interesting and inspiring. These pictures paint the picture of how Glorantha would look the best way. I always try to spot the runes from these images. Do Hsucnhen tattoo themselves with the runes? Every item on the shaman and the hunter is for some magical use. Not just decoratives.

These Hsunchen people worship greater spirits. Is there an explanation how this would happen somewhere. A god can be present everywhere at the same time, but does this also apply to these greater spirits? Or do the worshipers have to travel to some spot everytime or does the travel happen by shamans in the spirit plane?

I have heard Hykim and Mikyh mentioned before but didn't really know what they (it?) were. This genealogy of course tunes with our animal taxonomy. Is the Mammal Mother also the mother of platypus-god in Glorantha?

[Akhôrahil]

Something I would have enjoyed seeing more of is the differentiation between various Hsunchen peoples. I'm not getting much help if I want to play, a Sofali character - the section is about the general, and I would imagine that the closer you look at individual peoples, the more differences show up (isn't it always like that?). Obviously there is a space constraint, but boxes no larger than the Rathori and Uncoling descriptions would have been helpful (as would have a "group photo" of all the various peoples). Also, as the section is so generic, it's not very "grabby" - at least for me, I don't feel a lot of plot hooks here. 

I also find the concept - brought up here about the Basmoli, but something we will see again and again - of Hsunchen people "evolving" (with heavy scare quotes) out of their traditional niche.

The language thing is gloriously weird. The God Learners must have loved it! :-)

"Wake the dragon" instantly makes me think of A Song of Ice And Fire, as it's something of a catchphrase for the unlamented Viserys. ;-)

Edited July 3, 2017 by Akhôrahil

[Oracle]

The Hsunchen chapter seems to be based on the respective chapter in the Player’s Book from the RuneQuest III box Glorantha: Genertela, Crucible of the Hero Wars, but was heavily enhanced and updated (especially the Distribution and Subtypes as well as the Mythology section). The following parts seem to be completely new (at least from my perspective):

• Hsunchen Population numbers
  in conjunction with the distribution map this gives a good impression, where you can meet Hsunchen people

• Appearance section
  it’s always good to have an idea of how people look like ...

• Beast Brothers section
  very interesting information, that beast brothers are handled differently depending on which type of Hsunchen is involved.

• Hsunchen distribution map
  although small this map is a good overview, where you may meet people of this culture in Glorantha, which is very useful, if you’re preparing a game in a certain area … or where to locate a game, if you want you’re players to meet people of this culture

• Language section

• The Telmori Werewolves boxed text
  short explanation how Gloranthan werewolves became, what they are now … not exactly what I’ve imagined so far.

• one-page illustration displaying a Rathori hunter and an Uncoling shaman plus boxed descriptions of the two. This is just great. You get an immediate feeling how it would be, meeting these people in a game …

• Hykim and Mikyh boxed text
  another fascinating bit of mythology … I've already heard about Hykim and Mikyh, but that's the first time, that I've had a focus on that topic.

Over all this chapter triggered my curiosity to create a Hsunchen player character. Certainly the information given here is not enough (no occupations, no description of spells, etc.), but at least it is a start. I’ve always wanted to play a werewolf, so I’ve even dived into the Telmori description in The Coming Storm. Even that is not yet enough (it is even stated, that description is only included for creating HeroQuest NPCs, but not real player characters), it contains some hints. Some more work would be needed, but it should be possible.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Oracle

[Joerg]

Hsunchen marriage types

One thing I had nodded through even on the most recent re-read was the remark that Uncolings (unlike other Hsunchen types) have several wives.

How much does Hsunchen culture reflect the social structures of their totemic beasts? A partnership for life is rather the exception than the rule in the animal kingdom.

This is especially difficult when the totemic beasts are solitary by nature, with the typical family group being the mother and the cubs in case of bears, whereas the human hunter-gatherer culture has the mother and her brothers – a multi-generation version of mother and cubs.

The text implies that there is marriage rather than free-for-all coupling at tribal festivals and the sibling group taking care of child-raising.

 

Matings (or births) in animal shape, with their animal kin, aren’t mentioned either, although I am fairly sure that such events occur. (And this is not just re-enacting Wendi Pini’s wolf riders in the shape of the Telmori, with their first chief as ancestor of both the riders and the wolves…)

 

Hsunchen polities appear to have been a thing in Godtime Ralios, and their temple cities were present and active in the Dawn Age, too. I wonder that the Pujaleg empire of Laskal doesn’t get mentioned in the intro, or the Basmoli/Pendali kingdom.

Some Hsunchen polities survived, but ceased to be Hsunchen in nature. I’d name Safelster as the Enerali empire, the Kralori dragon empire, and the bear kingdom of Jonatela.

1 hour ago, jrutila said:

So, Fronela seems to be the place to go if you want to meet some Hsunchen people.

Northern Fronela, these days. At the Dawn, everything except a few Malkioni territories was Hsunchen or civilized Hsunchen (Enjoralini - civilized Tawari bull people).

Civilized Hsunchen were trending in the Gray Age and at the Dawn - Pendali lion folk in Seshnela (former Basmoli), Enerali in Ralios (former Galanini), and the Enjoralini. The Jonating bear folk may be another such group, although the name Jonating is derived from a late Second Age hero rather than a Dawn Age one.

 

1 hour ago, jrutila said:

And there seems to be pretty straight forward beasts (at least in the major influences) that it is easy to think how they would act.

In case of the Telmori, that would be built on the old cliche based on an old observation of an artificially large wolf pack in captivity.

 

1 hour ago, jrutila said:

I remember there was a RuneQuest scenario (I don't remember the name of it) way back then that introduced these turtle people on an island. Nice to match them now to represent Hsunchen.

The Sofali have been Hsunchen since RQ3 times.

1 hour ago, jrutila said:

The relation with their totem animals is interesting. After reading "Beast Brothers" and "Food" I am not sure what I would answer if someone would ask for example do Uncolings eat reindeer?

As a rule, yes, they do. There isn't much else in terms of large prey in Porent. Their relation to the reindeer herds isn't much different from that of the Praxians.

1 hour ago, jrutila said:

So is it forbidden or seen as a way to fully .. hmm, utilize... your brother. On the other hand for example Rathori are wearing a bear hide and others also wear their totem animals.

Years ago we discussed the sacred bear hunt that most bear worshippers practice, and the consensus was that it had to be a Rathori rite, too.

1 hour ago, jrutila said:

These Hsunchen people worship greater spirits. Is there an explanation how this would happen somewhere. A god can be present everywhere at the same time, but does this also apply to these greater spirits? Or do the worshipers have to travel to some spot everytime or does the travel happen by shamans in the spirit plane?

Greater spirits have as much pluripresence as ordinary or greater gods. It took a huge collective ritual for Harrek to be able to slay and skin the White Bear God in its entirety.

1 hour ago, jrutila said:

I have heard Hykim and Mikyh mentioned before but didn't really know what they (it?) were. This genealogy of course tunes with our animal taxonomy. Is the Mammal Mother also the mother of platypus-god in Glorantha?

Gloranthan taxonomy is sometimes quite similar to ours, but there are differences, too. Horses for instance are related to birds and to feathered dinos, all of which are sky creatures, while most ungulants and carnivora are mammals (descendants of Mother Mammal). Carnivores are descendants of Fralar, the primal carnivore, ancestor of lions, tigers, tomcats, alynxes (not a Hsunchen type beast, but still Fralar descendants), wolves, dogs (no extant Hsunchen connection), bears, Andrewsarchii (even though they were hoofed animals rather than carnivora), badgers, otters, other weasels, mongooses, hyenas, sabretooths, etc.

Not sure about orcas, dolphins, whales, seals, or other almost fully aquatic beasts - Fralar may not have been in their ancestry. (And I am aware that seals are carnivora, and that otters are a borderline case.)

[David Scott]

It was nice to finally have an overview of the Hsunchen. The criticism of not enough detail is bound to be levelled, but as Jeff always had to remind me:

Quote

The Guide is a view of Glorantha from 30000 feet

This is one of those areas that I really would have liked to see more, but of course a specialist Hsunchen supplement would be better. The overall issue with this section is that animals are very varied in look, behaviour and distribution. Because of this, this section can never do it justice. Likewise with the art, two illustrations will never do it justice. These guys are definitely cool weather people. It would have been nice to see warm weather hsunchen and what they wear. The religion was good to see too, as these are pure animists.

[Akhôrahil]

"The Guide is a view of Glorantha from 30000 feet"

From the top of Kero Fin, then? :-)

[Steve]

The Hsunchen section is very nice. The population distribution boxes, here and in the following sections, are interesting when combined with the map (see my entry in the error thread about the map legend being too small/pixellated, though).

I was surprised that there were so many types of Hsunchen. I never read the RQ3 Genertela books if that was already in there, so this was new stuff to me and quite fascinating. Of course it makes sense though that if there are "beast peoples" that this would not be restricted to just one or two beast types. The descriptions seemed very good to me, and I can understand that the Hsunchen can only be skimmed here - a large book could easily be taken up on all the Hsunchen and still miss out on lots of information, I would have thought.

Ok, the Laubenstein art. I have a few problems here. But first, It's very nice to see this full-page art and the Hsunchen page just gives us a tantalising glimpse of two types, perhaps posing even more questions about what there wasn't room to show. The problems, though. The proportions look off to me. Something doesn't seem quite right to my eye. But interestingly, my eye doesn't object in the same way to the sketches that @David Scott has kindly posted above. I wonder if the art was compressed slightly vertically to make it fit on the page, or something like that. Or it might just be my eyes.

Secondly, I have an even bigger problem. This is common to all these depictions in this section. Unfortunately the descriptions on the page following don't quite match the art. It's as if the descriptions are the original art direction, then the artist went off and did something that didn't match 100% the direction (which is perhaps understandable), but then it's jarring when the apparent description of a picture doesn't seem to go totally with the art. Specifically here, the Rathori's shoes are described are "wide". Hmm, not in this picture they're not. They look regular width to me, and the same as the Uncoling standing next to him. The shoes' netting mentioned in the description is also missing. This bothers me because it seems "off". I will give other examples in the other sections for similar mismatches.

 

 

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, Steve said:

It's as if the descriptions are the original art direction, then the artist went off and did something that didn't match 100% the direction (which is perhaps understandable)

That is what they are.  Once you realize that (and it is done throughout the entire Guide), it makes it a bit less jarring, and a bit more thought provoking.

[Akhôrahil]

That's what I gathered upon first read. It still makes for a decidedly odd image text, when it contradicts the actual image.

[Jeff]

I did that quite intentionally. I felt there was value in providing the actual art direction (which often contains pretty detailed descriptions of things) and then the final art. Especially when the two didn't completely jive.

[Akhôrahil]

It is cool to see just how close, but not perfectly so, the images stick to the art direction. 

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

It is cool to see just how close, but not perfectly so, the images stick to the art direction. 

Welcome to my life!

[B. Cephalus]

I, on the other hand, would rather have a text that describes and explains the image that's actually there, rather than the one that exists in the author's mind. I find that really jarring.

But it seems that I'm in the minority about that.

[Byll]

[Steve]

18 hours ago, Jeff said:

I did that quite intentionally. I felt there was value in providing the actual art direction (which often contains pretty detailed descriptions of things) and then the final art. Especially when the two didn't completely jive.

That's fair enough. But in that case, the boxes should be clearly labelled as "art direction" or similar. Otherwise the reader just assumes they are straightforward descriptions of the art.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Steve

[davecake]

I thought that providing the art direction even when it did not match the art was an odd choice, but it worked for me, and rewriting the art description so it matched the art would have made the book seem more polished but not really added to the Glorantha content at all. 

[davecake]

I've tended to think of Pamaltela as more hsunchrn dominated than Genertela, so it was a big surprise to me that around 40% of all hsunchen are in Fronela. 

Also interesting that the areas we are most familiar with from published material (Prax, Dragon Pass, Lunar Empire) are all areas where hsunchen are a small minority. We really don't know much of the detail about the areas where the hsunchen are a big percentage of the population, and not much about complexity of a big thriving hsunchen culture.

And once we do dive in, even the small and despised Telmori have a whole second shamanic tradition (the Ituvanu, in The Coming Storm and Dorastor). There are hints that there is a lot more going on in hsunchen groups like the Rathori, Uncolings and Pujaleg people. 

[davecake]

The gender stuff is interesting. I assume in practice that most of those not happy with their gender end up as shamans (or die in the attempt). Otherwise it seems like exile (unless those secret trans communities really exist). 

The waken the dragon line is especially interesting considering the relationship of the Dragon people to the Kralorela hsunchen. Perhaps the Dragon People were all sexually genderqueer and also all shamans!

i will mention one further way in which sexual ambiguity of magicians can manifest on earth, though I'm not surprised it's not mentioned in a book for a general audience - genital surgical modification as an initiatory practice. In some traditions (I'm aware of some Australian Aboriginal practices) this is explicitly considered to magically change gender, sometimes to be both genders (i.e. Men having access to women's rites). Now that I've made several of us uncomfortable...  

[davecake]

So note that the Korgatsu tradition includes not just the totem animal, but many local flora and fauna, ancestor worship, local spirits, and even great spirits like Oakfed. So it seems that while all hsunchen have the strong relationship with their totem animal spirits, they can develop other animist magical relationships in addition, and this is normal. Again, it looks like the hsunchen previously looked at in detail like the telmori and basmoli are atypical weak minority groups, and large hsunchen groups have access to a much wider range of Magic (while still remaining hsunchen, and mostly pure animist). 

[Dogboy]

On 04/07/2017 at 3:42 PM, Steve said:

Specifically here, the Rathori's shoes are described are "wide". Hmm, not in this picture they're not. They look regular width to me, and the same as the Uncoling standing next to him. The shoes' netting mentioned in the description is also missing. This bothers me because it seems "off". I will give other examples in the other sections for similar mismatches.

 

 

Here I think it is referring to the snowshoes on his back

[Dogboy]

Am I the only one who wonders what an Uncoli shaman knows about snake dances? Are there Ice snakes there? Or possible it is like the Siberian Death-Worm.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Dogboy
Death-Worms!