can assistant shaman discorporate?

[David Scott]

6 hours ago, g33k said:

Discorporate Other runespell

It's a shamanic ability in my mind, not a rune spell. Number of people taken tased on level Level 1 = +2, 2 = + 4, 3 = + 8, etc.

[PhilHibbs]

11 hours ago, g33k said:

...a good solid foundation of fluff ...

🤣rofl👌
I agree though, more fluff is good. There’s a huge variety of theistic cults presented, but shamanism is just a homogenous thing (other than Aldrya and Kyger Litor, but that’s theism’s detail leaking over). The only distinction we have is “Daka Fal, Waha, Other”.

Edited July 26, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[PhilHibbs]

10 hours ago, g33k said:

A lot of players don't have the background to "just play the game" like the example above.

You don’t need any background to just not worry about something that is not a problem. Saying “but how does the assistant discorporate” and bringing the game to a halt over the question is entirely unnecessary. It honestly never occurred to me until this thread. It happens, it’s part of the ritual.

Edited July 26, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[Glorion]

On 7/25/2020 at 8:57 AM, Shiningbrow said:

The one thing I disagree with here is the idea that the skill/ability to discorporate only at the end of the year.. I think many are saying that it should either be a skill learned a lot earlier in the training, or an ability given by the Bad Man... (or at least on that quest somewhere).

Achieving stable, regular discorporation is a skill in this world... Drugs initially help with unstable spirit journeys. Getting out is easy. Controlling it is not.

The idea that it's a skill learned a lot earlier is possible. I prefer the idea that your shaman can Discorporate you due to the apprentice bond, and takes you to the Spirit Plane to train you. However, that it's an ability the Bad Man or the Horned Man gives you doesn't work, as you have to Discorporate to meet them on your spirit quest for shamanism first.

[Glorion]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

You don’t need any background to just not worry about something that is not a problem. Saying “but how does the assistant discorporate” and bringing the game to a halt over the question is entirely unnecessary. It honestly never occurred to me until this thread. It happens, it’s part of the ritual.

Well sure, but large numbers of both GMs and players are rules mongers who are not satisfied with anything if it doesn't work according to the rules. Even on this thread, half of the posters seem to think that assistant shamans need to learn the Discorporate rune spell, and now you have posters inventing a brand new shamanic ability to gain a taboo for. I have provided a reassuring practical justification to satisfy those of us (self included) who are not satisfied with something that looks like a glitch in the rules and want it to be just part of the ritual (the first part, the days long cave meditation) in a way that works ruleswise, while avoiding unnecessary annoying complications that just make life harder for the players and don't feel shamanic anyway.

[David Scott]

23 minutes ago, Glorion said:

Well sure, but large numbers of both GMs and players are rules mongers who are not satisfied with anything if it doesn't work according to the rules.

Fortunately, that's not my real world experience. The highest concentration of rules mongers is on this forum. 🙂

 

[MJ Sadique]

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

Fortunately, that's not my real world experience. The highest concentration of rules mongers is on this forum. 🙂

 

👍👍👍

It's Sooo TRUE ! 🤣🤣🤣

RQ always hold the palms in hosting rules mongers and House-rulers. (I'm part of the mass too).

5 hours ago, Glorion said:

Well sure, but large numbers of both GMs and players are rules mongers who are not satisfied with anything if it doesn't work according to the rules. Even on this thread, half of the posters seem to think that assistant shamans need to learn the Discorporate rune spell, and now you have posters inventing a brand new shamanic ability to gain a taboo for. I have provided a reassuring practical justification to satisfy those of us (self included) who are not satisfied with something that looks like a glitch in the rules and want it to be just part of the ritual (the first part, the days long cave meditation) in a way that works ruleswise, while avoiding unnecessary annoying complications that just make life harder for the players and don't feel shamanic anyway.

Glorion ... today you see a green T-shirt and the color does not please you. I can assure you one thing ... when the time come, you will also see that this T-shirt is not green it's a magnificent Blue-Face Shamanic color. (I surely merit a big stick on my head for this ...). But I can understand your actual you and I found a loopholes (hum.. humm) in the rules to satisfy the "I-don't-want-a-rune-spell-to-discorporate" groups : CHA4029/Spirit Combat Fumble 96-98 : No-a-shaman-guy, the spirit combatant’s body and spirit separate (combatant discorporate).

Now you have your green T-shirt rules ! you want to discorporate without being a shaman nor use rune spell !!! Problem-solved 😇

[Glorion]

23 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

👍👍👍

It's Sooo TRUE ! 🤣🤣🤣

RQ always hold the palms in hosting rules mongers and House-rulers. (I'm part of the mass too).

Glorion ... today you see a green T-shirt and the color does not please you. I can assure you one thing ... when the time come, you will also see that this T-shirt is not green it's a magnificent Blue-Face Shamanic color. (I surely merit a big stick on my head for this ...). But I can understand your actual you and I found a loopholes (hum.. humm) in the rules to satisfy the "I-don't-want-a-rune-spell-to-discorporate" groups : CHA4029/Spirit Combat Fumble 96-98 : No-a-shaman-guy, the spirit combatant’s body and spirit separate (combatant discorporate).

Now you have your green T-shirt rules ! you want to discorporate without being a shaman nor use rune spell !!! Problem-solved 😇

Eh. I'm an old guard RQ'er and me and everyone in my group have been playing since the '80s. Every last one of my players is a rules lawyer who will argue anything and everything at the drop of the hat. But anyway, YCWV (do I have to spell that out)?

BTW, if my interpretation is adopted, GMs whose players are not veteran rules lawyers like mine who know the whole corpus and every word of the official rules forwards and backwards can simply disregard the whole issue, not required annoyed wannabe shamans to sacrifice for a spell they don't want to sacrifice for and have no use for, and simply never even mention the whole issue to them at all, ever. Now, isn't that MGF?

[Shiningbrow]

On 7/27/2020 at 12:35 AM, Glorion said:

The idea that it's a skill learned a lot earlier is possible. I prefer the idea that your shaman can Discorporate you due to the apprentice bond, and takes you to the Spirit Plane to train you. However, that it's an ability the Bad Man or the Horned Man gives you doesn't work, as you have to Discorporate to meet them on your spirit quest for shamanism first.

It could be an ability given (free of charge) after the apprentice has done the cave thing... Or perhaps the actual ability is that the Shaman can get Discorporate Others as a paid ability, and discorps the apprentice and takes them up to the Horned Man, and then the appreciate continues alone, getting the ability to discorporate themselves along the way.

In.that way, a tribe can have multiple shamans, but only a few able to effectively teach all the new ones. A tribe with only one capable shaman is a very poor tribe. And losing that one person who can fight (and talk with) the spirits would be very bad. 

But, having lots of people doing it also isn't helpful to the tribe. (And runs the risk of one of the apprentices leaving with all the knowledge)

But again, not being able to take other tribe members along on a journey seems to be not quite right... 

So, Discorporate Others makes sense, and fixes multiple problems in one go (and can thus allow for Discorporate Self)

[PhilHibbs]

11 hours ago, Glorion said:

...GMs ... players ... can simply disregard the whole issue... Now, isn't that MGF?

Absolutely. Don't worry about something that doesn't need worrying about.

[Akhôrahil]

I think this is a problem of a kind. A game that's constructed the way RQG is tells you how activities in the world are performed using the rules, such as Discorporation. If you handwave this away and say that the shaman can always bring the apprentice, then the next question becomes "Oh, so shamans can bring other people along? How many? This might be useful!" Internal consistency of the rules matters in a game of this type. It's part of MGF that the rules actually model the world in a simulationist game, and having to handwave is bad and against the design objectives.

The sensible fix instead would be to say that all apprentice shamans receive the Discorporation spell as a known rune-spell for free (or if you're feeling stingy, as mandatory first rune spell). Or just that they can discorporate the same way shamans can (but never should on their own, as this is super dangerous).

Edited July 28, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think this is a problem of a kind. A game that's constructed the way RQG is tells you how activities in the world are performed using the rules, such as Discorporation. If you handwave this away and say that the shaman can always bring the apprentice, then the next question becomes "Oh, so shamans can bring other people along? How many? This might be useful!"

Sounds good to me. That's exactly the way MGF works. I'd certainly let my players go down that route.

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

The sensible fix instead would be to say that all apprentice shamans receive the Discorporation spell as a known rune-spell for free.

And that is what it will say in the upcoming Gods of Glorantha (as I said previously). Although they still have to pay the usual cost to learn spell, which is not a problem as when they become shaman they can use the point to power other Rune spells. The spell isn't wasted as there's no limit on Rune spells.

[Akhôrahil]

7 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Sounds good to me. That's exactly the way MGF works. I'd certainly let my players go down that route.

At this point, you have to wonder if you're playing the right game, though. There seems to be little point of having a heavy, detailed rules system if it's not being used because it can't cover the activities the characters do.

8 minutes ago, David Scott said:

And that is what it will say in the upcoming Gods of Glorantha (as I said previously). Although they still have to pay the usual cost to learn spell, which is not a problem as when they become shaman they can use the point to power other Rune spells. The spell isn't wasted as there's no limit on Rune spells.

 Interesting, so they always have a cult to sacrifice to for Rune Points? Horned Man provides this?

[Glorion]

On 7/27/2020 at 9:36 PM, Shiningbrow said:

It could be an ability given (free of charge) after the apprentice has done the cave thing... Or perhaps the actual ability is that the Shaman can get Discorporate Others as a paid ability, and discorps the apprentice and takes them up to the Horned Man, and then the appreciate continues alone, getting the ability to discorporate themselves along the way.

In.that way, a tribe can have multiple shamans, but only a few able to effectively teach all the new ones. A tribe with only one capable shaman is a very poor tribe. And losing that one person who can fight (and talk with) the spirits would be very bad. 

But, having lots of people doing it also isn't helpful to the tribe. (And runs the risk of one of the apprentices leaving with all the knowledge)

But again, not being able to take other tribe members along on a journey seems to be not quite right... 

So, Discorporate Others makes sense, and fixes multiple problems in one go (and can thus allow for Discorporate Self)

Ability to discorporate after the cave is exactly what I'm suggesting. I see no need to add a whole new Discorporate Others ability for this purpose. It is simpler to just assume that the apprentice bond enables the shaman to bring his apprentice along with him to the spirit plane. The ability to discorporate others *in general,* not just the shaman's solitary apprentice whom he spends so much of his time and effort training and to whose soul he is intimately connected, could indeed be a special Discorporate Others ability, which some shamans might perhaps want to accept a taboo for.

[Glorion]

On 7/28/2020 at 9:50 AM, Akhôrahil said:

At this point, you have to wonder if you're playing the right game, though. There seems to be little point of having a heavy, detailed rules system if it's not being used because it can't cover the activities the characters do....

True, which is why I saw a hole in said detailed rules system and came up with what I think is a nice plug.

[Glorion]

On 7/28/2020 at 6:14 AM, Akhôrahil said:

I think this is a problem of a kind. A game that's constructed the way RQG is tells you how activities in the world are performed using the rules, such as Discorporation. If you handwave this away and say that the shaman can always bring the apprentice, then the next question becomes "Oh, so shamans can bring other people along? How many? This might be useful!" Internal consistency of the rules matters in a game of this type. It's part of MGF that the rules actually model the world in a simulationist game, and having to handwave is bad and against the design objectives.

The sensible fix instead would be to say that all apprentice shamans receive the Discorporation spell as a known rune-spell for free (or if you're feeling stingy, as mandatory first rune spell). Or just that they can discorporate the same way shamans can (but never should on their own, as this is super dangerous).

Yeah, I don't like the idea of shamans just randomly bringing *anybody* along. Given the profound intensity of the apprentice bond, that they can bring their apprentice (and I don't think a shaman can ever have more than one apprentice) with them to the spirit plane makes sense to me. Handing out runespells to shamans and their apprentices merely to fix a hole in the rules I find distasteful. And the ability to discorporate should not be simply a gift to the apprentice, whether or not sac'ing a point of POW is necessary. It needs to be struggled for, and a year of training followed by days of fasting, meditation and prayer in a cave definitely has the right Gloranthan feel.

[Glorion]

On 7/28/2020 at 9:40 AM, David Scott said:

And that is what it will say in the upcoming Gods of Glorantha (as I said previously). Although they still have to pay the usual cost to learn spell, which is not a problem as when they become shaman they can use the point to power other Rune spells. The spell isn't wasted as there's no limit on Rune spells.

David, I hope not, because that would create another hole in the rules requiring another clumsy fix. Discorporate is *not* a common rune spell! So either they'd have to make it one, highly problematic indeed just plain wrong, or the apprentice would have to join Horned Man or some such to be able to get it, having to sacrifice two points of POW not one. Definitely not MGF. Especially since probably most actual played shamans, like the Wind Child shaman in my campaign, are Orlanthi shamans due to most of the material published so far being Sartarite. And Orlanth definitely doesn't have Discorporate, and shouldn't.

Also, there definitely is a limit on rune spells, though a pretty generous one for full shamans. Your CHA, plus your fetch's CHA.

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, Glorion said:

I don't like the idea of shamans just randomly bringing *anybody* along.

Just because they can bring anybody along doesn't mean they would bring anybody along   But if you want, I think it would be appropriate for the "Discorporate Other" ability to work only on people who have "communed" with the shaman for, say, a day, or whatever, which would limit it nicely to (mostly) the shaman's assistant(s).

Note that (unlike the "assistants get Discorporation" fix), you'd need a limit on this ability... that is, unless you want to see shamans amass large numbers of "assistants", and then going into the Spirit World with an entire spirit murdering mob. It could be that each instance of the ability lets you take 1 person, or that you can take as many as your CHA or whatever.

On 7/27/2020 at 9:36 PM, Shiningbrow said:

It could be an ability given (free of charge) after the apprentice has done the cave thing...

I do prefer a "Discorporate Others" ability rather than giving a Rune Spell to assistant shamans, but I think I'll make the ability paid. This will make shamans more varied: the nice "teacher" shaman who takes you on trippy adventures all the time, the hippie "stoner" shaman who gives you drugs all the time, or the "tough love" shaman who forces you to discorporate yourself and gets mad when you don't last long enough in the Spirit World.

Edited July 30, 2020 by lordabdul

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, Glorion said:

Ability to discorporate after the cave is exactly what I'm suggesting. I see no need to add a whole new Discorporate Others ability for this purpose. It is simpler to just assume that the apprentice bond enables the shaman to bring his apprentice along with him to the spirit plane. The ability to discorporate others *in general,* not just the shaman's solitary apprentice whom he spends so much of his time and effort training and to whose soul he is intimately connected, could indeed be a special Discorporate Others ability, which some shamans might perhaps want to accept a taboo for.

The Discorporate Others is a nice ability, which would mean that only a dedicated tribal shaman is likely to have it (especially if it's only given by the tribal totem for tribal taboos), and thus means you wouldn't have lots of pseudo-shamans running around teaching others how to discorporate (e.g., Discorporation spell).

The issue I see with the one week of fasting, meditation etc is that the proto-shaman then only knows how to do it after a week of fasting and meditating under the watchful gaze of the teacher.

IRL, some people will have an Out Of Body experience first time, and then never again... others will spend months (years) and never have one. (Sure, Earth is less magical). So, one single week *alone* isn't really sufficient to make one an expert who can discorporate at will..

The mechanic of it being an ability works well both thematically and for the rules lawyers. And, without the time and cult limitations the Rune Spell brings with it.

[Shiningbrow]

48 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I do prefer a "Discorporate Others" ability rather than giving a Rune Spell to assistant shamans, but I think I'll make the ability paid

I was thinking that Discorporate Self is free. Discorporate Others costs. Someone mentioned above, 1-1, 2-4(?), 3-??? (Level-people)

[Austin]

7 hours ago, Glorion said:

 And Orlanth definitely doesn't have Discorporate, and shouldn't.

Orlanth doesn't, but Kolat probably does.

[Glorion]

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

The Discorporate Others is a nice ability, which would mean that only a dedicated tribal shaman is likely to have it (especially if it's only given by the tribal totem for tribal taboos), and thus means you wouldn't have lots of pseudo-shamans running around teaching others how to discorporate (e.g., Discorporation spell).

The issue I see with the one week of fasting, meditation etc is that the proto-shaman then only knows how to do it after a week of fasting and meditating under the watchful gaze of the teacher.

IRL, some people will have an Out Of Body experience first time, and then never again... others will spend months (years) and never have one. (Sure, Earth is less magical). So, one single week *alone* isn't really sufficient to make one an expert who can discorporate at will..

The mechanic of it being an ability works well both thematically and for the rules lawyers. And, without the time and cult limitations the Rune Spell brings with it.

After a week? No. After a year of intensive training, an assistant shaman *may* be able to discorporate after days and days of fasting, meditation and prayer. Or may not be, might need another year or more of training (modeled by that POW+CHA roll). Nobody who isn't a shaman or an apprentice shaman ready to meet the Horned Man should be able to discorporate self without dangerous artificial aids like hazia. Discorporate Others as another Ability a full shaman can pay a taboo for would be something else altogether, totally separate and a good idea. IMHO a shaman with that Ability who is training an apprentice *would not* use that Ability to get the shaman in training onto the heroplane to meet the Horned Man, as that is something the would be shaman needs to accomplish though his/her own spiritual abilities.

Getting our assistant shaman onto the spirit plane in this fashion is not as bad an idea as doing it with a Rune spell, but still not a good idea. Getting onto the spirit plane to meet the Horned Man is to be struggled for, not handed to you on a silver platter by either a deity or your mentor. 

[David Scott]

8 hours ago, Glorion said:

Discorporate is *not* a common rune spell!

Discorporate is not a common Rune spell, but has the Magic rune as its designator, page 317:

Quote

Spells identified with the (the Magic Rune) can be used with any cult Rune affinity.

An Orlanthi assistant shaman would be a member of the Kolat spirit cult, and use the Air rune. However the Rune is not used in activating this ritual, meditation is, so is irrelevant anyway.

8 hours ago, Glorion said:

the apprentice would have to join Horned Man or some such to be able to get it, having to sacrifice two points of POW not one.

The Horned Man doesn't give any magic and has no cult. In the above case, the assistant shaman when joining Kolat would receive Discorporate as the first rune spell. Remember, initiation ritual costs 1 POW and give auto access to all common magic. Spirit cults rarely have any common magic, but as per page 275:

Quote

and chooses one cult special Rune spell.

So that would be Discorporate.

8 hours ago, Glorion said:

 And Orlanth definitely doesn't have Discorporate, and shouldn't.

Kolat is the key spirit cult for Orlanthi shaman. It's subservient to Orlanth and the shaman can also be an Orlanth cultist if they wish, but Orlanth leaves the spirits to his brother. Kolat is detailed in a number of places, (very rough RQG outline here - https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/11764-kolating-spirit-cults/?tab=comments#comment-180243 just add wind spells).

 

 

8 hours ago, Glorion said:

Also, there definitely is a limit on rune spells, though a pretty generous one for full shamans. Your CHA, plus your fetch's CHA.

What's your reference for this?

 I've been using the limit is on Rune points as per page 313:

Quote

The maximum number of Rune points an adventurer can have with a single cult is equal to their CHA.

and the Expanded Charisma rules for shaman on page 357.

[Glorion]

12 hours ago, David Scott said:

Discorporate is not a common Rune spell, but has the Magic rune as its designator, page 317:

(Which merely means the Magic rune can be used to cast it. Doesn't mean just anyone can cast it-JH)

An Orlanthi assistant shaman would be a member of the Kolat spirit cult, and use the Air rune. However the Rune is not used in activating this ritual, meditation is, so is irrelevant anyway.

(He could be, but our Wind Child shaman, like most Wind Children, is an initiate of Orlanth Thunderous, which works nicely but does not provide Discorporate. I'm shifting over to player, and my character will be a trickster shaman initiated to Eurmal. BTW, that is in honor of my old trickster shaman Jirenx. I was one of Sandy's original playtesters for the original RQ3 playtest. Jirenx died in a particularly humorous fashion.-JH http://www.seiyuu.com/okamoto/writing/campaign_log_2_0.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0epdeAt-1RrTQIG2K_y8BhZRDJV1nRze9_IvKtzVo4aENoEmTU1tbRmeo)

The Horned Man doesn't give any magic and has no cult. In the above case, the assistant shaman when joining Kolat would receive Discorporate as the first rune spell. Remember, initiation ritual costs 1 POW and give auto access to all common magic. Spirit cults rarely have any common magic, but as per page 275:

So not even the Horned Man? The shaman joins any ol' spirit cult. and get Discorporate and nothing else. A pure, clumsy rule crutch to annoy players with, reduce MGF, and add nothing whatsoever to the game.

12 hours ago, David Scott said:

What's your reference for this?  I've been using the limit is on Rune points as per page 313: and the Expanded Charisma rules for shaman on page 357.

Rune spells, rune points, picky picky, amounts to the same thing. You are just saying what I said with different wording.

[PhilHibbs]

9 minutes ago, Glorion said:

Rune spells, rune points, picky picky, amounts to the same thing. You are just saying what I said with different wording.

It's not the same thing at all. The vast majority of characters are going to end up with more RP than they have spells. I suppose you could rule that once you have filled your CHA limit of RP then you can't learn any more spells, but I wouldn't rule it that way. I'm not sure what a strict reading of the rules would imply, nor do I care.

Edited July 30, 2020 by PhilHibbs