can assistant shaman discorporate?

[Austin]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Or, a new shamanic ability that allows them to discorporate others.

Isn't that just drugs?

[Glorion]

On 7/19/2020 at 8:24 AM, soltakss said:

Yes, but what does that mean?

Is the Assistant shaman taken on a Spirit Journey and shown what to do? Does the shaman sit the Assistant down and carefully explain what would happen when Discoporate?

Clearly, they have to be taken on a Spirit Journey. Verbal explanations of Spirit Travel are worthless, you have to feel it in your soul. Which means that the shaman has to be able to take an assistant with him onto the spirit plane if he discorporates. The deep spiritual assistant bond is what makes that possible, which otherwise it is not. However, the shaman is not going to do that for the assistant when it is time for the assistant to meet the Horned Man, the assistant must be able to discorporate his/her self. After a year of training and being taken on Spirit Journeys and days of meditation, fasting and prayer, the assistant can do this, if the shaman knows the assistant is ready (measured by that POW+CHA roll).

[Glorion]

On 7/15/2020 at 8:35 PM, lordabdul said:

Using house rules is one thing, but disagreeing is another: as per RAW the Discorporate Rune spell is "self" only, and the shaman's Discorporation power only talks about the shaman's own spirit.  It's probably MGF indeed, however, to allow the shaman to use the Discorporate Rune spell to discorporate their assistant (so not for free, and not with the same freedom as the shamanic ability). I probably wouldn't allow it for anybody else but YMMV and all that.

IMHO, shaman assistants need to buy and have the Discorporate Rune spell for the same reason university students need to buy textbooks and cram on topics they will never use again in their career    You need to discorporate for your shamanic exam, too. Better get a bit of experience under your belt by doing it a few times before then.

For shamans to use of all things divine magic to discorporate just plain doesn't feel right to me. What if a shaman simply isn't in a divine cult at all? Using the Discorporation runespell for this key task is a crutch used to cover a hole in the rules, and a bad one. Shamans are not professsors, and their assistant are not college students. If it is explicitly stated somewhere that this is how it's done, as far as I know it hasn't beem, that was a minor mistake on Chaosium's part, to be ignored. Not the only one.

[Glorion]

Actually, the idea that assistant shamans can use the Discorporation spell to meet the Horned Man and go through the ritual to become a shaman is simply wrong. Why? Because it only lasts 15 minutes. Q.E.D.

Hazia, that works more or less. The Discorporation spell does not.

[David Scott]

4 minutes ago, Glorion said:

Actually, the idea that assistant shamans can use the Discorporation spell to meet the Horned Man and go through the ritual to become a shaman is simply wrong. Why? Because it only lasts 15 minutes. Q.E.D.

Hazia, that works more or less. The Discorporation spell does not.

This goes beyond the mechanics of RuneQuest. The spell starts you on the path and the heroquest takes over, shamanic initiation is a classic heroquest format.

Have a look at SHAMANISM, Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy by Mircea Eliade. Chapter 2 & 4 covers most shamanic initiatory forms with examples. I'd look around for a second hand copy as it £25 new or you get read some of it at https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=2UQqSwAACAAJ

 

[Lordabdul]

24 minutes ago, David Scott said:

This goes beyond the mechanics of RuneQuest. The spell starts you on the path and the heroquest takes over, shamanic initiation is a classic heroquest format.

Interesting... still, I think Glorion's reasoning is sensible (about Discorporate lasting only 15min, I mean). How would someone who only has the RQG rulebook know any of this?

53 minutes ago, Glorion said:

For shamans to use of all things divine magic to discorporate just plain doesn't feel right to me. What if a shaman simply isn't in a divine cult at all?

Is that possible? The rulebook doesn't seem to give any way to make a cult-less shaman?

Edited July 21, 2020 by lordabdul

[PhilHibbs]

18 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Or, a new shamanic ability that allows them to discorporate others.

15 hours ago, Crel said:

Isn't that just drugs?

The ability may involve the correct and safe use of the right drugs.

[Austin]

8 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

The ability may involve the correct and safe use of the right drugs.

Isn't that just Plant Lore?

[PhilHibbs]

14 hours ago, Crel said:

Isn't that just Plant Lore?

I don't think so. I haven't heard that discorporation is a commonly known technique among herbalists.

Edited July 22, 2020 by PhilHibbs
don't need no double negatives

[jajagappa]

46 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't think so. I haven't heard that discorporation is a commonly known technique among herbalists.

Plant Lore would allow you to identify plants that you know and are aware of, and what their properties are (e.g. hazia allows your spirit to separate from your body, but is highly addictive).  It would also let you know whether the plant must be prepared in some manner in order to make it effective.

If there is nothing special required (e.g. you just have to smoke or ingest hazia), then no other roll is needed.

If the plant must be prepared, then you need a skill like Alchemy or Prepare Healing Potion.  These are specialist skills known by Lhankor Mhy, Chalana Arroy, and a few others.

[PhilHibbs]

16 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Plant Lore would allow you to identify plants that you know and are aware of, and what their properties are (e.g. hazia allows your spirit to separate from your body, but is highly addictive).  It would also let you know whether the plant must be prepared in some manner in order to make it effective.

If there is nothing special required (e.g. you just have to smoke or ingest hazia), then no other roll is needed.

If the plant must be prepared, then you need a skill like Alchemy or Prepare Healing Potion.  These are specialist skills known by Lhankor Mhy, Chalana Arroy, and a few others.

The specifics of how to use them to safely discorporate, however, I would say are not known by those specialists.

The fact is that, in general, only shamans can discorporate. If Lhankor Mhy and Chalana Arroy were known to be able to discorporate, then I think we'd have heard about it by now. Therefore it isn't covered by the knowledge skills that we know about.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

If Lhankor Mhy and Chalana Arroy were known to be able to discorporate, then I think we'd have heard about it by now. Therefore it isn't covered by the knowledge skills that we know about.

Those who accidentally consume too much hazia (or other similar substances), likely find their soul separated from their bodies and unable to find their way back.  Those who discover their dead bodies simply confirm that they consumed too much and died, and treat it as a poison.

[David Scott]

On 7/21/2020 at 5:26 PM, lordabdul said:

Interesting... still, I think Glorion's reasoning is sensible (about Discorporate lasting only 15min, I mean).

I covered this in the example I did on contacting a Greater Entity last year, it also covers the returning problem:

On 7/21/2020 at 5:26 PM, lordabdul said:

How would someone who only has the RQG rulebook know any of this?

They don't, they just play it as it is. I think there's too much overthinking in a lot of this. My experience is that we just get on with the game, tiny nuances of the rules never come up. I've had a few people do the shaman's initiation and we just play the game. It runs like the example above.

On 7/21/2020 at 5:26 PM, lordabdul said:

Is that possible? The rulebook doesn't seem to give any way to make a cult-less shaman?

The rulebook doesn't let you start as a shaman, that occupation is missing. But as an assistant shaman at step 6, just don't join a cult. You won't get any rune points unless you join some spirit cults - do that, up to 3 (to spread your spells). Decide what skills are important to those spirits at 20/15/10% to those then spread the Cult Lore (deity) +15%, Worship (deity) +20%, Meditate +5%. around the spirit cults you've chosen. etc.

 

[PhilHibbs]

On 7/21/2020 at 4:36 PM, Glorion said:

For shamans to use of all things divine magic to discorporate just plain doesn't feel right to me.

It's rune magic. There is no divine magic. The name was changed back for a reason, divine magic was a misleading term. In any case I don't think they do need the spell.

Edited July 23, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[Lordabdul]

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

I covered this in the example I did on contacting a Greater Entity last year, it also covers the returning problem:

Thanks!

I'm curious about what you say in the beginning: "There's also the Shamanic ability of take others with you".  I can't find that ability in the rulebook.... is that a house rule at your table, or some general suggestion to consider it a shamanic ability? Or did I miss something?

[PhilHibbs]

7 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Thanks!

I'm curious about what you say in the beginning: "There's also the Shamanic ability of take others with you".  I can't find that ability in the rulebook.... is that a house rule at your table, or some general suggestion to consider it a shamanic ability? Or did I miss something?

Maybe it is not a standard, widespread ability and so is not listed in the core rule book. Glorantha has much more in it than the RQG books cover.

[Lordabdul]

16 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Maybe it is not a standard, widespread ability and so is not listed in the core rule book. Glorantha has much more in it than the RQG books cover.

Yes, and that's called a "house rule"   (and after it's published in the GM Guide or some other book, it's called an "optional rule"). The fact that it makes total sense is irrelevant since, well, hopefully you don't make house rules that don't make sense   (and for the record, house rules are awesome, I love house rules)

So yes, it's a good optional ability for a shaman, and now that it's been suggested I might very well add it to the abilities list. But my question was merely whether I missed something in the rulebook or not.

Edited July 23, 2020 by lordabdul

[Glorion]

On 7/23/2020 at 10:46 AM, David Scott said:

 

They don't, they just play it as it is. I think there's too much overthinking in a lot of this. My experience is that we just get on with the game, tiny nuances of the rules never come up. I've had a few people do the shaman's initiation and we just play the game. It runs like the example above.

The rulebook doesn't let you start as a shaman, that occupation is missing. But as an assistant shaman at step 6, just don't join a cult. You won't get any rune points unless you join some spirit cults - do that, up to 3 (to spread your spells). Decide what skills are important to those spirits at 20/15/10% to those then spread the Cult Lore (deity) +15%, Worship (deity) +20%, Meditate +5%. around the spirit cults you've chosen. etc.

 

Discorporation for the shaman doesn't cost a rune point, the shaman just does it. It's not a spell, it's something all shamans know how to do. Indeed, just go ahead and do it and don't worry about the technical rules details is, in practice, what I suggest. It does *not* thank goodness say anywhere in the rules that an assistant shaman needs to know the Discorporation rune spell.

I merely gave a "proper" rules justification for not needing it, namely that the ability to discorporate oneself after days and days of fasting and meditation is something that it is possible to gain after a year of thorough training in the ways of the shaman--though not certain, your shaman will know if you have attained that (that POW+CHA roll). The idea that a shaman, who isn't necessarily even a worshipper or initiate of a deity, needs to get a rune point from a deity of some sort in order to become a shaman in the first place is sad and totally against the spirit of the rules, whether or not it matches the technical details in the RQG book.

[Glorion]

1 minute ago, Glorion said:

Discorporation for the shaman doesn't cost a rune point, the shaman just does it. It's not a spell, it's something all shamans know how to do. Indeed, just go ahead and do it and don't worry about the technical rules details is, in practice, what I suggest. It does *not* thank goodness say anywhere in the rules that an assistant shaman needs to know the Discorporation rune spell.

I merely gave a "proper" rules justification for not needing it, namely that the ability to discorporate oneself after days and days of fasting and meditation is something that it is possible to gain after a year of thorough training in the ways of the shaman--though not certain, your shaman will know if you have attained that (that POW+CHA roll). The idea that a shaman, who isn't necessarily even a worshipper or initiate of a deity, needs to get a rune point from a deity of some sort in order to become a shaman in the first place is sad and totally against the spirit of the rules, whether or not it matches the technical details in the RQG book.

YGMV of course. If you really want to require all shamans in your Glorantha to be initiates of a divine cult go for it. If you want all shamans to be hazia addicts, go for that too. This is my house rule in my campaign.

[Nick Underwood]

On 7/18/2020 at 5:08 PM, David Scott said:

I've taught real world shamanism for over twenty years now, worked with many different shaman, including Greg Stafford. I also wrote the spirit magic section of HeroQuest Glorantha. RuneQuest Glorantha's spirit world and shamanism draws on that and Greg's concepts of the spirit world. Much of this is based on how Greg worked with the spirits and their world.

Excellent!! There always seems to he exactly the person on this forum you wish you could bump into in a quiet bar with a whole evening of nothing to do...

@David Scott I've been wondering how to make more of Gloranthan shamanism. The Gloranthan religions cults are rich with meaning and philosophical concepts that make them fascinating to explore and can give players and GMs a hugely rewarding sense of wonder. Gloranthan shamanism, by contrast, can often feel a little rules bound  - like we have been given the grammer, but only glimpses of the poetry.  I suspect it's just harder to encapsulate and hasn't been given the necessary space in print. 

But, how do you do it? How do you invite players to experience a little of the spiritual questing of shamanism. How do you make events meaningful for modern players? I guess this is also the question of what does (Gloranthan) shamanism teach, and how do you approach that in gameplay. 

Actually, I don't suppose that has a simple answer at all... If you could just point to any useful materials, that would be much appreciated! Is HQ the place to start?

Edit... 

Oh... Maybe you had already answered my question... 

"Have a look at SHAMANISM, Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy by Mircea Eliade. Chapter 2 & 4 covers most shamanic initiatory forms with examples." 

Edited July 25, 2020 by Nick Underwood

[Shiningbrow]

On 7/25/2020 at 4:29 AM, Glorion said:

I merely gave a "proper" rules justification for not needing it, namely that the ability to discorporate oneself after days and days of fasting and meditation is something that it is possible to gain after a year of thorough training in the ways of the shaman--though not certain, your shaman will know if you have attained that (that POW+CHA roll). 

The one thing I disagree with here is the idea that the skill/ability to discorporate only at the end of the year.. I think many are saying that it should either be a skill learned a lot earlier in the training, or an ability given by the Bad Man... (or at least on that quest somewhere).

Achieving stable, regular discorporation is a skill in this world... Drugs initially help with unstable spirit journeys. Getting out is easy. Controlling it is not.

Edited July 26, 2020 by Shiningbrow
Autocorrect typo

[PhilHibbs]

On 7/23/2020 at 10:38 PM, lordabdul said:

Yes, and that's called a "house rule"   (and after it's published in the GM Guide or some other book, it's called an "optional rule").

The specifics of how it works would be a house rule, but if it’s documented as existing in a canon publication (and I’m not sure if it is or not), then it’s part of Glorantha. And all rules are optional, RQG and the Bestiary and the GM Screen Pack are all on an equal footing in that respect.

[Shiningbrow]

On 7/21/2020 at 2:35 PM, Crel said:

Isn't that just drugs?

Unless you're a well-trained alchemist with access to Moon Flowers, that means a strong likelihood of getting a drug addiction... At least for some time in your training.

[g33k]

On 7/24/2020 at 5:07 PM, Nick Underwood said:

...

@David Scott I've been wondering how to make more of Gloranthan shamanism. The Gloranthan religions cults are rich with meaning and philosophical concepts that make them fascinating to explore and can give players and GMs a hugely rewarding sense of wonder. Gloranthan shamanism, by contrast, can often feel a little rules bound  - like we have been given the grammer, but only glimpses of the poetry.  I suspect it's just harder to encapsulate and hasn't been given the necessary space in print. 

...

I too would LOVE to see Shamanism given a good solid foundation of fluff ... and a few additional mechanical elements.

Discorporate Other runespell, discorporation ability taught "before" full-shaman status, Hazia/MoonFlowers/etc, and I presume other methods... different shamanic traditions may prefer different methods to get their padawan's to meet Bad Man (and frankly, I'd love to see some other options / archetypes for this challenge).

Might we see some love for Shamans in the Horned Man write-up?  Resolutions and RAWs for these lingering questions?

[g33k]

On 7/23/2020 at 10:46 AM, David Scott said:

I covered this in the example I did on contacting a Greater Entity last year, it also covers the returning problem:

... I've had a few people do the shaman's initiation and we just play the game. It runs like the example above.

A lot of players don't have the background to "just play the game" like the example above.

More fluff, with or without accompanying mechanics, would be VERY welcome.  Especially 2 or more nice mutually-contradictory Gloranthan items, to help explore varying traditions... Kolat, Daka Fal, Serdrodosa, Jakaleel, etc...

FrEx, I could see Kolat fulfilling the role of "Bad Man" not as a "foe" but as a gambling opponent, "betting" taboos &c...