can assistant shaman discorporate?

[PhilHibbs]

On 8/10/2020 at 7:44 PM, Glorion said:

Also, BTW, not all spirit cults have access to all the common runespells, and Extension would be an obvious one for them not to have, as not very spiritual.

I'd have thought Extension would be one of the most likely for them to have.

[Glorion]

On 8/11/2020 at 2:09 AM, David Scott said:

In the core books it's not possible at the moment. There's no multiple cult joining in the Adventurers chapter, and no spirit cults or societies available.

In outline, the adventurer would join the Kolat spirit society, a group of spirit cults with Kolat at the head. You'd get a package of skills and spells as step 6. You don't have to join Orlanth, but can if you want.

Why impossible? If an assistant shaman can be Yelmi, an assistant shaman can certainly be Orlanthi. Yes, you could join Kolat instead if you wish, even though that is *also* not listed as one of the three choices in the Assistant Shaman description, which I'm sure are intended as examples not rigid rules. Me, I think Kolat is a bit limiting. The assistant shaman in my campaign, a Wind Child, naturally joined Orlanth as most Wind Children do. My old RQ3 shaman Jirenx or Jaranx, one of the original playtesters of RQ3, was a Eurmal shaman, an idea to which Sandy raised no objections whatsoever.

[David Scott]

I‘m talking about what is currently possible in the core books. Not everyone has access to old publications. There are currently no guidelines or details for an Orlanth or Kolat shaman in RQG.

[HreshtIronBorne]

From what I understand Daka Fal is Ancestor Worship. When sources talk about the Clan Ring calling the Ancesrors to ask what they think about a thing, that is a Daka Fal shaman they are bringing in/utilizing right?

[Shiningbrow]

On 8/10/2020 at 3:03 AM, Glorion said:

It's not a "special ability." If you have a fetch, part of you is already on the spirit plane. "Discorporation" for shamans is merely switching places with your fetch, and is not in fact "discorporation" at all. If you want to call that an ability, fine, as long as it's clear that it isn't an Ability. Perhaps it should require a successful Meditation roll, that would make sense. Which unless there is a fumble, only determines how long it takes for the shaman to switch places with the fetch.

This is obviously your personal interpretation of what goes on... Not all will agree. Especially since the bit about discorporation actually goes against the RAW.

Personally, I can see the possibility of a character having awakened their Fetch, but unable (hasn't learned/been taught) to discorporate (e.g., HQ reward - great for the extra POW & CHA)

[MJ Sadique]

16 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Personally, I can see the possibility of a character having awakened their Fetch, but unable to discorporate (e.g., HQ reward - great for the extra POW & CHA)

 

I envision a Great Trolling Moment when the horned man (with Eurmal advice) give you your fist Taboo : "You cannot discorporate unless for doing a taboo pilgrimate". MUAHAHAHAH 🤣

 

[Glorion]

18 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

This is obviously your personal interpretation of what goes on... Not all will agree. Especially since the bit about discorporation actually goes against the RAW.

Personally, I can see the possibility of a character having awakened their Fetch, but unable (hasn't learned/been taught) to discorporate (e.g., HQ reward - great for the extra POW & CHA)

Except the fetch is a part of you, and is already *on* the spirit plane 24/7. So if you have a fetch, you are always already partially discorporated. PS, what does RAW stand for?

[Lordabdul]

On 8/10/2020 at 8:01 AM, David Scott said:

The Rune spell is not needed in Stage One - the departure. They are inside the Axis Mundi, acting as the locus of the transition to full shaman.

[...]

There's no reason to complicate the process at this point as adding more dice rolls increase the chance of failure. But if for some reason the shaman fails to discorporate (GM wanting to make them roll meditation, etc), the Horned Man does his usual stuff.

So it looks to me like this could be addressed with a simple wording change... instead of "The applicant must then Discorporate", it could be "The Horned Man then helps the applicant discorporate" ?

Note that some of the confusion also comes from the fact that "Discorporate" (with a capital D) seems to designate the "Discorporation" Rune Spell, even though it's not the same term exactly. This is because a couple places in the rulebook refer to that specific spell under that name.... for instance, on p357 ("Should for some reason the shaman wishes to use the Discorporate spell instead of the natural ability..."). And if this looks like rules-lawyering, that's only an impression... I'm just explaining the (probable) mental process by which many people assumed that the shamanic initiation ritual included the casting a Rune spell and, therefore, an extra dice roll. If the designers didn't intend for this extra dice roll because their playtests showed that it's less fun, lowers the chances of success too much, or something else, then that's really good to know, and the text should be maybe clarified.

On 8/10/2020 at 8:01 AM, David Scott said:

They've been in a mediative trace for days, "asking a Greater Entity to awaken the powers within", which of course happens, their powers awaken. What are the shamans powers awakened? The relevant powers at this moment are discorporation and second sight, the others apply later.

That seems good to me. Again, it might be good to amend the rulebook's text with something like "The Horned Man's visit indicates that the applicant's journey is starting, and their first two shamanic powers are awakened"........ although on a pure "player psychology" level, it feels a bit weird to get powers without succeeding a roll... I guess technically the player had to succeed the "worthiness" roll first (POW+CHA)/2x5), so maybe that's OK, but now I wonder if it might be more interesting to roll that at the end of the 1D6+1 days of trance, as opposed to before... mmmh.

[Austin]

7 hours ago, Glorion said:

PS, what does RAW stand for?

RAW = "Rules As Written"

[David Scott]

On 8/13/2020 at 10:14 AM, HreshtIronBorne said:

From what I understand Daka Fal is Ancestor Worship. When sources talk about the Clan Ring calling the Ancesrors to ask what they think about a thing, that is a Daka Fal shaman they are bringing in/utilizing right?

It depends on what the sources say. Which sources? If it's an Orlanthi Ring there are numerous options. For example in an orlanthi worship ceremony, the ancestors get attention as well as the gods. They could just appear in a sacred space. I wouldn't always assume there is a RQ rule to cover this. Other options could be summon cult spirit. Orlanthi shaman are uncommon, so IMO it's unlikely that's what they are doing.

[PhilHibbs]

On 8/13/2020 at 10:14 AM, HreshtIronBorne said:

When sources talk about the Clan Ring calling the Ancesrors to ask what they think about a thing, that is a Daka Fal shaman they are bringing in/utilizing right?

I think the ancestors speak through the wyter a lot of the time, it tells the chief that the ancestors are upset about something. Sometimes they just show up as ghosts and complain loudly that you are ignoring the clan's traditions.

 

[HreshtIronBorne]

On 8/15/2020 at 2:03 AM, David Scott said:

On 8/13/2020 at 2:14 AM, HreshtIronBorne said:

From what I understand Daka Fal is Ancestor Worship. When sources talk about the Clan Ring calling the Ancesrors to ask what they think about a thing, that is a Daka Fal shaman they are bringing in/utilizing right?

It depends on what the sources say. Which sources? If it's an Orlanthi Ring there are numerous options. For example in an orlanthi worship ceremony, the ancestors get attention as well as the gods. They could just appear in a sacred space. I wouldn't always assume there is a RQ rule to cover this. Other options could be summon cult spirit. Orlanthi shaman are uncommon, so IMO it's unlikely that's what they are doing.

How is any of that represented in the new RQ:G material? Daka Fal is Ancestor Worship, from a mechanical standpoint whatever you call the dude asking the old dead people questions would be modeled similarly to the Daka Fal writeup? 

[soltakss]

14 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

How is any of that represented in the new RQ:G material? Daka Fal is Ancestor Worship, from a mechanical standpoint whatever you call the dude asking the old dead people questions would be modeled similarly to the Daka Fal writeup? 

For me, the Orlanthi Ancestors are not the same as ancestors in Daka Fal.

The ancestors in an Orlanthi Clan are a mass of spirits acting as a mob, a group. They lose all their individualism and simply conform to the Ancestors. They are the voice of conservatism, the ones who say "Don't do that, we have never done that" or "We are turning in our graves" when you do something they don't approve of.

With Daka Fal, you honour individual ancestors, you give them a voice, you name them, you keep their memory alive, you allow them to retain their personality and individuality through worship.

So, for me, worshipping certain orlanthi Ancestors through Daka Fal actually weakens the role of the ancestors in an Orlanthi clan, as you have taken those individual ancestors out of the Ancestors Pool, keeping them as individuals so they don't add to the collective voice of the Ancestors.

Edited August 18, 2020 by soltakss

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

So, for me, worshipping certain orlanthi Ancestors through Daka Fal actually weakens the role of the ancestors in an Orlanthi clan, as you have taken those individual ancestors out of the Ancestors Pool, keeping them as individuals so they don;t add to the collective voice of the Ancestors.

I would say :

worshipping ancestor through Daka Fal is as you say, you name your ancestor

worshipping ancestors of the clan is just worshipping your wyter. (and if your clan wyter is destroyed, this "ancestors clan pool" is destroyed too, as your clan, but you keep your "daka fal" own ancestor)

[Lordabdul]

11 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

worshipping ancestor through Daka Fal is as you say, you name your ancestor

worshipping ancestors of the clan is just worshipping your wyter.

I would probably go with the KoDP treatment, where Orlanthi ancestors are mostly the famous people of your clan and tribe, going all the way back to before Time. They are worshipped as part of the general Orlanthi rites, and they might show up when they're happy or angry with you. But I let them keep their personality: it's more fun to see a bunch of ghosts each with their own quirky traits, rather than some impersonal mob of old translucent dudes.

Daka Fal, in contrast, would let you worship your great uncle or great great grandmother or some other person that only matters to your own family. You'd need Daka Fal to setup your own personal shrine in your stead... that is, unless your great great grandmother was a beloved Queen in which case she would be part of the clan's ancestor (as above), but even in that case you might like to have her personal phone number in your living room.

 

[tnli]

In my Glorantha, assistant shamans need help to discorporate, either with various herbs or drugs (like the samples from the Glorantha Bestiary), or the Discorporate rune spell. And I would assume that they do this regularly as part of their studies with the shaman. 

Once a full shaman, it takes just a bit of time and MP's. 

Oh, and the book does mention that the cult might give you access to the cult's special rune magic spell in exchange for a donation of about a handful of cows, or as a special reward, so yes, you can learn more special rune magic than you have rune points. 

[davecake]

On 5/7/2019 at 10:14 PM, PhilHibbs said:

From what I understand, that's one of Argrath's special magical tricks, but one that he can teach.

We don’t know how it works in the rules. Could be that the White Bull Spirit Cult can teach Discorporation as a rune spell, for example.