can assistant shaman discorporate?

[Darius West]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

They both have Extension 1.... Yay, you can now discorporate for 1 hour... Which is still a lot less than a full shaman is usually spending (at least 1D6 hours)

Yeah, by RQ3 rules I would argue that a 1 hour extension should only allow travel in the Near Spirit Realm, not the Far Spirit Realm.  Aspirants/Assistants are noobs and should kick around in the wading pool while they learn to swim.

[Lordabdul]

15 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Yay, you can now discorporate for 1 hour... Which is still a lot less than a full shaman is usually spending (at least 1D6 hours)

I'm OK with the idea that assistants can't spend as much time in the Spirit World as a full shaman, except for those who spend a lot of energy (i.e. Rune Points) for it. There's a balance between "assistant shamans should only have a fraction of the powers of a shaman" and "assistant shamans need to be satisfyingly playable". That line probably varies from one GM/group to another, of course. One hour of spirit travel seems OK to me for assistants. Two hours at the very most. Maybe shamans have a special version of the Discorporate Rune spell that has a base duration of 1 hour, or 1d2 hours, or whatever, that they only teach to their assistants. There are many many ways to go about this... we'll see what Chaosium picks when the big books come out.

[Glorion]

On 8/5/2020 at 11:20 AM, lordabdul said:

I'm OK with the idea that assistants can't spend as much time in the Spirit World as a full shaman, except for those who spend a lot of energy (i.e. Rune Points) for it. There's a balance between "assistant shamans should only have a fraction of the powers of a shaman" and "assistant shamans need to be satisfyingly playable". That line probably varies from one GM/group to another, of course. One hour of spirit travel seems OK to me for assistants. Two hours at the very most. Maybe shamans have a special version of the Discorporate Rune spell that has a base duration of 1 hour, or 1d2 hours, or whatever, that they only teach to their assistants. There are many many ways to go about this... we'll see what Chaosium picks when the big books come out.

Which still leaves the problem of how they can manage to become full shamans. I cannot imagine the ritual to become a shaman taking less than a day. Basically the idea that assistant shamans get by on discorporating by rune spells, an idea not mentioned *at all* in the RQG rules, is a rules crutch to be avoided that would annoy players. If the big books when they come out throw that in, I suspect most GMs and players will quietly ignore them and chalk that up to Chaosium incompetence. Likewise, as it clearly states in the RQG rules that shamans because they are shamans can discorporate without difficulty, making that an Ability or requiring die rolls is a rules complication that GMs and players would dislike and ignore. Much better to use an idea such as mine, namely that due to the assistant bond shamans have the natural ability to bring *bonded apprentices* along when they travel to the spirit plane, and that assistant shamans after at least a year of training "*might,* if they are sufficiently powerful and charismatic, be able to get onto the spirit plane themselves after days of prayer and meditation, and due to the apprentice bond, their shamans will know whether they can or not. This concept has the tremendous advantage of precisely modeling the shamanism rules in the RQG book *as written,* without having to change anything.

[Shiningbrow]

Personally, I dislike the idea of a shaman having a 100% chance to discorporate anywhere anytime.

A teachable skill makes a whole lot more sense.

But then so does a special ability given when the fetch is awakened... Something that perhaps was the intent, but never specified.

[PhilHibbs]

23 hours ago, Glorion said:

Which still leaves the problem of how they can manage to become full shamans.

It's described in the rules. As part of the ritual, they become discorporate. It is not described any more than that, and I don't think it needs to be.

[Glorion]

7 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

It's described in the rules. As part of the ritual, they become discorporate. It is not described any more than that, and I don't think it needs to be.

The ritual doesn't really begin until *after* they discorporate, technically. Actually I agree with you, as opposed to all the posters here who think that a Discorporation runespell or hazia or something is necessary. I'm simply giving a technical reason for no further description in the rules for precisionists. Phil, if you don't think that's necessary, just read over this thread. Worse yet, there are claims here that Chaosium agrees with them and that when GoG comes out, assistant shamans will be required to learn an otherwise totally useless runespell. I hope that is not  true.

[Glorion]

13 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Personally, I dislike the idea of a shaman having a 100% chance to discorporate anywhere anytime.

A teachable skill makes a whole lot more sense.

But then so does a special ability given when the fetch is awakened... Something that perhaps was the intent, but never specified.

It's not a "special ability." If you have a fetch, part of you is already on the spirit plane. "Discorporation" for shamans is merely switching places with your fetch, and is not in fact "discorporation" at all. If you want to call that an ability, fine, as long as it's clear that it isn't an Ability. Perhaps it should require a successful Meditation roll, that would make sense. Which unless there is a fumble, only determines how long it takes for the shaman to switch places with the fetch.

Edited August 9, 2020 by Glorion

[David Scott]

On 8/9/2020 at 6:14 AM, Shiningbrow said:

Personally, I dislike the idea of a shaman having a 100% chance to discorporate anywhere anytime.

It takes an hour, for the ritual, so yes anywhere any time that you have a space to perform an hour long ritual.

14 hours ago, Glorion said:

"Discorporation" for shamans is merely switching places with your fetch, and is not in fact "discorporation" at all.

It's not the rune spell, but the process is called discorporation on page 357. There are at least two ways to achieve discorporation and one implied.

14 hours ago, Glorion said:

The ritual doesn't really begin until *after* they discorporate, technically.

The description on page 357 says:

Quote

To discorporate, a shaman must sacrifice a minimum of 5 magic points during a ritual that requires one hour to complete. After that, the duration of this discorporation is 1D6 hours.

The after that part would in my mind mean the discorporation happens during the ritual and properly starts at the end of the ritual.

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

It takes an hour, for the ritual, so yes anywhere any time that you have a space to perform an hour long ritual.

It's not the rune spell, but the process is called discorporation on page 357. There are at least two ways to achieve discorporation and one implied.

The description on page 357 says:

The after that part would in my mind mean the discorporation happens during the ritual and properly starts at the end of the ritual.

We aren't talking about the "regular discorporation" ritual. We're talking about the ritual to become a shaman, at which point the apprentice doesn't have the ability to discorporate.

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

We aren't talking about the "regular discorporation" ritual. We're talking about the ritual to become a shaman, at which point the apprentice doesn't have the ability to discorporate.

I realising I'm preaching to the converted but here's the actual lowdown:

In adding Discorporation to all assistant shaman, it allows assistant shaman an important activity:

• The assistant can Discorporate for 15mins and practice all the things needed to become a shaman on their own (not training with the shaman). 15 mins is an ideal time not to get into too much trouble. If the assistant is a shamanic cult member they can also get hold of Extension - Daka Fal, Waha and Yelm all give access to it if required in the core rules.

The Rune spell is not needed in Stage One - the departure. They are inside the Axis Mundi, acting as the locus of the transition to full shaman.

They've been in a mediative trace for days, "asking a Greater Entity to awaken the powers within", which of course happens, their powers awaken. What are the shamans powers awakened? The relevant powers at this moment are discorporation and second sight, the others apply later. 

"At the journey’s conclusion, the Horned Man, the First Shaman, appears to the applicant. He tells the assistant that it is time to begin. The applicant must then Discorporate and the Horned Man escorts their spirit along the Great Path." 

There's no reason to complicate the process at this point as adding more dice rolls increase the chance of failure. But if for some reason the shaman fails to discorporate (GM wanting to make them roll meditation, etc), the Horned Man does his usual stuff. Page 353:

Quote

Shamans are made as he snatches the candidate from their sacred starting place, and takes them to the end of the world to see if they change into their new shape.

I always imagine this as the new shaman teetering on the abyss, a million thoughts racing, can I do this? is this the right thing for me? At that moment the universe collapses and the Horned Man either grabs them or pushes them over the edge. This is the first initiation point. They have actually discorporated. On to stage two.

I'm sure others can find a different way to interpret this, but this is the basis.

[Glorion]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

In adding Discorporation to all assistant shaman, it allows assistant shaman an important activity:

• The assistant can Discorporate for 15mins and practice all the things needed to become a shaman on their own (not training with the shaman). 15 mins is an ideal time not to get into too much trouble. If the assistant is a shamanic cult member they can also get hold of Extension - Daka Fal, Waha and Yelm all give access to it if required in the core rules.

Is that your idea, or something that is in one of the drafts for GoG? If it is, that's not *precisely* what I've been suggesting, but amounts more or less to the same thing. I'd be quite happy with that.

[David Scott]

3 minutes ago, Glorion said:

Is that your idea, or something that is in one of the drafts for GoG?

Both.

[Glorion]

17 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Both.

Well good then. In practice, that comes out just about like what I suggested. If some assistant shamans want to be part of a cult and sac some points of POW for Extension to be able to spend too long on the spirit plane at their levels, no need to oppose that. Though I suspect their shamans would recommend against it.

[PhilHibbs]

14 minutes ago, Glorion said:

Well good then. In practice, that comes out just about like what I suggested. If some assistant shamans want to be part of a cult and sac some points of POW for Extension to be able to spend too long on the spirit plane at their levels, no need to oppose that. Though I suspect their shamans would recommend against it.

You don't spend POW for Extension. It's common divine, if the cult gives it then you can cast it with your Rune Points.

[Glorion]

9 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

You don't spend POW for Extension. It's common divine, if the cult gives it then you can cast it with your Rune Points.

Yes, but if you want more than Extension 1, you have to sacrifice more than one point of POW for Rune Points. Also, BTW, not all spirit cults have access to all the common runespells, and Extension would be an obvious one for them not to have, as not very spiritual.

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, Glorion said:

Yes, but if you want more than Extension 1, you have to sacrifice more than one point of POW for Rune Points. Also, BTW, not all spirit cults have access to all the common runespells, and Extension would be an obvious one for them not to have, as not very spiritual.

If you are starting off as an assistant apprenticed to a Daka Fal shaman, you choose your occupation and cult per the Adventurers chapter. You get 3 Rune points and get to choose 3 special cult spells. Let's say you choose Axis Mundi, Discorporation and Spirit Melding. Straight out of the box, you can Discorporate (1 Rune point and a meditation roll) and spend two Rune points using Extension (a common spell for Daka Fal) and extend your discorporation to a day.

As an aside, a few of my players figured it was better to spend a POW during character generation for an extra Rune point and spell, so high levels of Extension are easily obtainable.

All of the shamanic cults in the core book have access to Extension, including the two spirit cult examples.

Aldrya in the Bestiary can only access it as a Dryad, but this is a very cut down version of the cult. Kyger litor has access to it as well.

[Glorion]

23 minutes ago, David Scott said:

If you are starting off as an assistant apprenticed to a Daka Fal shaman, you choose your occupation and cult per the Adventurers chapter. You get 3 Rune points and get to choose 3 special cult spells. Let's say you choose Axis Mundi, Discorporation and Spirit Melding. Straight out of the box, you can Discorporate (1 Rune point and a meditation roll) and spend two Rune points using Extension (a common spell for Daka Fal) and extend your discorporation to a day.

As an aside, a few of my players figured it was better to spend a POW during character generation for an extra Rune point and spell, so high levels of Extension are easily obtainable.

All of the shamanic cults in the core book have access to Extension, including the two spirit cult examples.

Aldrya in the Bestiary can only access it as a Dryad, but this is a very cut down version of the cult. Kyger litor has access to it as well.

 

[Glorion]

T

24 minutes ago, David Scott said:

If you are starting off as an assistant apprenticed to a Daka Fal shaman, you choose your occupation and cult per the Adventurers chapter. You get 3 Rune points and get to choose 3 special cult spells. Let's say you choose Axis Mundi, Discorporation and Spirit Melding. Straight out of the box, you can Discorporate (1 Rune point and a meditation roll) and spend two Rune points using Extension (a common spell for Daka Fal) and extend your discorporation to a day.

True enough, but most PCs are Sartarite, and by and large Sartarite PCs are going to prefer to be Orlanthi to Daka Fal, for cultural reasons and also because the three Orlanth spells would be more useful. Hm. come to think of it, the Orlanthi assistant shamans would have all the Extension they need. Still, by the new dispensation, a sensible assistant shaman is not going to *want* to spend more than 15 minutes on the spirit plane anyway until full shamanhood is attained. Safer. A daily 15 minutes on the spirit plane, with or without guidance from the shaman, should be enough for training purposes. And there is no rules modeling for assistants getting extra training by risking longer trips, so there is no motivation for that except possibly roleplaying glory.

Just now, Glorion said:

As an aside, a few of my players figured it was better to spend a POW during character generation for an extra Rune point and spell, so high levels of Extension are easily obtainable.

Absolutely, unless you are an assistant shaman, for whom every point of POW is extremely precious. An Ernaldan magic user who doesn't spend *at least* one point of POW for an extra rune spell is foolish.

[g33k]

2 minutes ago, Glorion said:

...

Absolutely, unless you are an assistant shaman, for whom every point of POW is extremely precious. An Ernaldan magic user who doesn't spend *at least* one point of POW for an extra rune spell is foolish.

Or they just have different priorities than you do... that's a rather minimax choice, IMHO.

Myself, I'm working hard to restrain my own minimax/analysis impulses as I design 2-3 "support NPCs" ... I plan to run one or two as members of the adventurer-group, alongside some new-to-Glorantha players.  I want to make sure the NPC doesn't Mary-Sue all over the players!

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Glorion said:

but most PCs are Sartarite, and by and large Sartarite PCs are going to prefer to be Orlanthi to Daka Fal

Why? At the moment in my game I have no Orlanthi and one Daka Fal assistant shaman.  And in the game I'm playing in there are also no Orlanthi, and I'm playing the Daka Fal assistant shaman.  And in both cases I'm enjoying how those characters are working in their respective games.

2 hours ago, Glorion said:

Absolutely, unless you are an assistant shaman, for whom every point of POW is extremely precious.

Personally, I spent 2 additional POW points for my Daka Fal asst shaman.  Whether or not I'll use the Discorporate, I don't know, but it fit for the character.

[PhilHibbs]

I can't imagine playing a shaman member of the Orlanth cult. Makes no sense to me.

[David Scott]

9 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I can't imagine playing a shaman member of the Orlanth cult. Makes no sense to me.

In the core books it's not possible at the moment. There's no multiple cult joining in the Adventurers chapter, and no spirit cults or societies available.

In outline, the adventurer would join the Kolat spirit society, a group of spirit cults with Kolat at the head. You'd get a package of skills and spells as step 6. You don't have to join Orlanth, but can if you want.

[David Scott]

9 hours ago, Glorion said:

but most PCs are Sartarite, and by and large Sartarite PCs are going to prefer to be Orlanthi to Daka Fal

As RQG has six homelands, that's not my experience at all. I've only one Sartarite, two Tarshites, one old Tarsh and an Esrolia. My other game is all Praxians, except one Tarshite.

If you want to be a Sartarite assistant shaman, Daka Fal would be the usual path. Kolat is a spirit cult, so joining that in addition would also work. Kolat is very limited.

[Austin]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

There's no multiple cult joining in the Adventurers chapter

It's in the Rune Cults chapter. Page 275, "Membership in Multiple Cults".

[David Scott]

25 minutes ago, Crel said:

It's in the Rune Cults chapter. Page 275, "Membership in Multiple Cults".

In the Adventurers chapter - not part of creating your adventurer. There's no combined package system. You can do it in game.