can assistant shaman discorporate?

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

  Nope, the way to access spirit world is to face the Horned Man : the First Shaman is the One who Will Judge you ! You cannot teach or learn how to "walk". One must acquire/found his fetch through the ritual of awaking to be able to discorporate and travel to the spirit world. The Shaman teach you the rites, how to fight spirits, flew from them (dance) and the "Geography" of the spirit world. But a Shaman cannot discorporate someone else and the runespell is SELF use ONLY !!!

Not sure what you are saying here - are you saying that an assistant shaman cannot discorporate using the rune spell? Because Vishi Dunn has the spell, and he's an assistant, and they get Spirit Travel skill.

[Glorion]

4 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

 

MJ: unless you can discorporate, you can't face the Horned Man in the first place! The RQQ rules make that quite clear. The encounter with the Horned Man takes place on the spirit plane, and can't possibly take place anywhere else. So if you can't discorporate, you cannot become a shaman, it's that simple. End of story. I think doing it with hazia and so forth is a crutch, and the rune spell Discorporate an even more dubious crutch, since a true shaman isn't initiated into any divine cult at all. I think the solution is that starting on the path to shamanhood by days and days of fasting and meditation when you are ready, enabling you to discorporate yourself without artificial aids, is the only solution that makes any sense.

What's more, shamans (shamen?) can't discorporate anyone else, but they *have* to be able to discorporate their carefully chosen and bonded assistants, as otherwise, there is no way to train them in Spirit Travel, and very difficult to train them in Spirit Dance. Spirit Combat, I suppose the shaman can train the assistant by flinging spirits at him, school of hard knocks way. Spirit Dance, I'm not sure you can even do that if you are not on the spirit plane. Spirit Travel, no way jose.

4 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

 

4 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

Nope, the way to access spirit world is to face the Horned Man : the First Shaman is the One who Will Judge you ! You cannot teach or learn how to "walk". One must acquire/found his fetch through the ritual of awaking to be able to discorporate and travel to the spirit world. The Shaman teach you the rites, how to fight spirits, flew from them (dance) and the "Geography" of the spirit world. But a Shaman cannot discorporate someone else and the runespell is SELF use ONLY !!

 

 

[jajagappa]

45 minutes ago, Glorion said:

What's more, shamans (shamen?) can't discorporate anyone else

I'll disagree with that one on the grounds that it isn't MGF.  It's very dangerous for those untrained, but sometimes a shaman has got to have help and not even their assistant (if around and not off on some other task) is enough.  

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I'll disagree with that one on the grounds that it isn't MGF.  It's very dangerous for those untrained, but sometimes a shaman has got to have help and not even their assistant (if around and not off on some other task) is enough.  

Make it an ability they can gain.

[Lordabdul]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I'll disagree with that one on the grounds that it isn't MGF.

Using house rules is one thing, but disagreeing is another: as per RAW the Discorporate Rune spell is "self" only, and the shaman's Discorporation power only talks about the shaman's own spirit.  It's probably MGF indeed, however, to allow the shaman to use the Discorporate Rune spell to discorporate their assistant (so not for free, and not with the same freedom as the shamanic ability). I probably wouldn't allow it for anybody else but YMMV and all that.

IMHO, shaman assistants need to buy and have the Discorporate Rune spell for the same reason university students need to buy textbooks and cram on topics they will never use again in their career    You need to discorporate for your shamanic exam, too. Better get a bit of experience under your belt by doing it a few times before then.

Edited July 16, 2020 by lordabdul

[David Scott]

...and with the update to the rules that all assistant shaman have access to Discorporate, the problem goes away. (I got Jeff to add this to the upcoming gods book).

[jajagappa]

8 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Using house rules is one thing, but disagreeing is another: as per RAW the Discorporate Rune spell is "self" only, and the shaman's Discorporation power only talks about the shaman's own spirit.  It's probably MGF indeed, however, to allow the shaman to use the Discorporate Rune spell to discorporate their assistant (so not for free, and not with the same freedom as the shamanic ability). I probably wouldn't allow it for anybody else but YMMV and all that.

We were talking generally there about discorporation (lower case 'd'), not the spell Discorporate (capital 'D').  That could be via hazia, other herbs or techniques, etc.  So no house rule or argument with RAW needed - just different approaches as to how to bring a group into the Spirit World.

[MJ Sadique]

^^ I will try to make myself crystal clear ... 🤨

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

We were talking generally there about discorporation (lower case 'd'), not the spell Discorporate (capital 'D').  That could be via hazia, other herbs or techniques, etc.  So no house rule or argument with RAW needed - just different approaches as to how to bring a group into the Spirit World.

In the two case, my response and the rules are still valid and stay the same. The simple reason is linked to what Assistants shamans (or Sha- : to know, -man : person ) are and what they do :
-First, An assistant shaman is selected by shaman and after a year (at minima) if he "deemed worthy by their shaman mentor" then he can try the mini-heroquest for summoning a fetch. In this case, as assistant who just start to work in the spiritual path may not go be able to discorporate so soon. The very purpose of being an assistant is to be tested by the shaman and see if your are worthy of having such great power because being able to discorporate IS a great and dangerous power !!!

15 hours ago, Glorion said:

MJ: unless you can discorporate, you can't face the Horned Man in the first place! The RQQ rules make that quite clear. The encounter with the Horned Man takes place on the spirit plane, and can't possibly take place anywhere else. So if you can't discorporate, you cannot become a shaman, it's that simple. End of story.

Exactly, The problem do not exist in the first so why arguing about it ? 😵

And as the rules state about the summoning to become a shaman (RQ-G CHA4028, p354) : "The applicant must then Discorporate and the Horned Man escorts their spirit along the Great Path." And As jajagappa  clearly spot it precisely... it's "the spell Discorporate (capital 'D')". DURA LEX ES LEX.

"End of the Story" Glorion

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

...and with the update to the rules that all assistant shaman have access to Discorporate, the problem goes away. (I got Jeff to add this to the upcoming gods book).

To access the Discorporate Rune Spell, yes. As state in Assistant Chaman p352, any assistant is linked to Daka fal or Waha and can buy the spell ... so it's already in the rule 🙄

Second, I understand that some players want to have the liberty of an assistant shaman with the power of a shaman to discorporate at will; It's like the old acolyte controversy who want the same reusable power of the RuneLord without the limitations 😒. If an assistant chaman really want to be able to discorporate in less one year of training, he can make a sacrifice to DAKA FAL (or his chaman tutelar god) for being able to do such divine FEAT; It's he very purpose of the Discorporate Rune Spell / divine Feat. If the assistant chaman try to abuse the power, Daka fal/waha will just not respond to him (Rune Fixes 2).

Unlike Shiningbrow, I'm clearly against the assistant shaman to have the ability to discorporate at will; Any assistant shaman who were rejected during their year of practice could just become a real threat almost as dangerous as a bad shaman without a fetch... Seems stupid and dangerous.

 

PS : About discorporate ability, Some Gloranthan may have this as an innate ability but it's not the purpose of RQ-G unlike HeroQuest. You play heroquest, why not...  RQ-G... no ! Discorporate as step of an heroquest or a special event (Out of the body experience) is very different than discorporate at will which is the ability purpose.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, MJ Sadique said:

Assistants shaman ... are and what they do :

Just because you are an assistant shaman doesn't mean you have to become a shaman, just as initiates don't have to become rune levels, from the occupation:

Quote

The assistant shaman helps the shaman to perform ritual duties, and in return is instructed in the deeper knowledge of shamanism. This is a significant role within the tribe, with considerable abilities and responsibilities, and should not be chosen lightly.

I actually treat the assistant shaman role like real world shamans do. The students are the assistants, and the assistant is the apprentice. It's possible to switch between the two. The real world shaman I have met often have 2 or 3 assistants, but only one apprentice. The apprentice often stands-in for the shaman at ceremonies, but the assistants never do but may assist the apprentice. This likely a level of detail that you may not want in your game.

1 hour ago, MJ Sadique said:

To access the Discorporate Rune Spell, yes. As state in Assistant Chaman p352, any assistant is linked to Daka fal or Waha and can buy the spell ... so it's already in the rule 🙄

But not in Aldrya, Kyger Litor and Yelm who have shaman and not the Discorporate rune spell, hence the system wide update.

[Lordabdul]

8 hours ago, David Scott said:

...and with the update to the rules that all assistant shaman have access to Discorporate, the problem goes away. (I got Jeff to add this to the upcoming gods book).

W00t! So wait, do these forums end up being helpful in some way once in a red moon?  

5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

We were talking generally there about discorporation (lower case 'd'), not the spell Discorporate (capital 'D').  That could be via hazia, other herbs or techniques, etc.  So no house rule or argument with RAW needed - just different approaches as to how to bring a group into the Spirit World.

Ah sorry, yes, indeed, there are other ways to discorporate. Apologies for misunderstanding.

51 minutes ago, David Scott said:

The real world shaman I have met often have 2 or 3 assistants, but only one apprentice.

Oh that's interesting... more meat shield NPCs!

[Glorion]

7 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

 

Exactly, The problem do not exist in the first so why arguing about it ? 😵

And as the rules state about the summoning to become a shaman (RQ-G CHA4028, p354) : "The applicant must then Discorporate and the Horned Man escorts their spirit along the Great Path." And As jajagappa  clearly spot it precisely... it's "the spell Discorporate (capital 'D')". DURA LEX ES LEX.

"End of the Story" Glorion

 

You certainly havem't made yourself clear! You wrote: " I think the spell is NOT made for spirit travel but Mundane plane travel," in other words that the Discorporate spell doesn't do the trick. And in fact, since it only lasts 15 minutes, it doesn't do the trick! Jajagappa forgot that. The Discorporation spell, despite being divine and not spirit so inappropriate and downright impossible for a shaman who doesn't have a divine cult, just plain doesn't work. I don't care how many people claim that it does, Jeff, anybody. It's useless for the shaman ritual, you had it right the first time actually. It's a hole in the RQG rules as written.

I think my solution, namely that those days of fasting and meditation and prayer that are required are what enables someone to discorporate who has studied under a shaman for at least a year and seen as ready by the shaman--is the only one that makes any sense and feels right. It means the apprentice is actually *doing* something important in his time in the cave.

If you don't like it, then hazia or something similar is a requirement for becoming a shaman. That may actually be what Greg intended, he was not an opponent of unauthorized pharmaceuticals according to rumor. Argrath is notoriously into hazia. Still, though a better crutch for a hole in the rules, still a crutch.

[Glorion]

22 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I'll disagree with that one on the grounds that it isn't MGF.  It's very dangerous for those untrained, but sometimes a shaman has got to have help and not even their assistant (if around and not off on some other task) is enough.  

Ah. Now, that's another solution that actually works. In fact, that has to be the case, or how could the shaman teach the Assistant things like Spirit Travel and Spirit Dance? If the official rules state otherwise, then they should be fixed, or simply ignored by sensible GMs, YGMV you know. However, I don't think that's right for the ritual to become a shaman, because the apprentice is supposed to achieve that on his/her own. I think it is more appropriate that self-discorporation is the very first step on the path to shamanhood, only achievable by a shaman's apprentice who has studied at least a year and is deemed ready by the shaman, and then only after days of fasting, meditation and prayer. Not easy and automatic as it is for a full shaman.

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Glorion said:

However, I don't think that's right for the ritual to become a shaman, because the apprentice is supposed to achieve that on his/her own. 

Agreed.  Like any initiation into something new, if you can't achieve it yourself, you have not passed the test.

[David Scott]

The key point about the ritual of becoming a shaman is not the discorporation aspect, but meeting your fetch. The Horned Man's initiation caused by the Great Darkness caused his other self to awaken as his timeless other mirror. The fetch is in the spirit world, the shaman on the other. Moving between the two worlds is a side effect of having a fetch. It's possible to become a shaman without learning to discorporate or learning spirit travel. In real world shamanism, spontaneous initiation is a thing, you normally need to be struct by lightning or have a near death experience (in glorantha this would trigger the creation of your fetch and the encounter with the Bad Man). At this point you either seek help (training from another shaman), become self taught, or go mad.

HeroQuest Glorantha has the best example of this:

Quote

On Waha’s Birth Night, his shaman takes the candidate through the Spirit World to Waha’s birthplace. Here with the other spirit protectors, he must help guard Waha’s birth from the spirits who would try to kill him. Bad Man always appears and singles out the candidate, directing the foes of the Great Darkness to tear him to pieces. The candidate’s helper spirits take his pieces to Eiritha’s womb. There the Horned Man, the Father of all shaman, pores over the pieces slowly fitting the candidate back together.

There was a bit edited out:

Quote

If the Horned Man find an extra piece, this is the candidate's fetch and he becomes a shaman, if there is the correct number of pieces, the candidate has failed and may try again. If there is a piece missing, the candidate has failed and dies.

 

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

HeroQuest Glorantha has the best example of this:

HQ writing is so good. Reminded me to go back and read up on Odayla and Yinkin in the far and away best source for them, Storm Tribe.

[Glorion]

9 hours ago, David Scott said:

The key point about the ritual of becoming a shaman is not the discorporation aspect, but meeting your fetch. The Horned Man's initiation caused by the Great Darkness caused his other self to awaken as his timeless other mirror. The fetch is in the spirit world, the shaman on the other. Moving between the two worlds is a side effect of having a fetch. It's possible to become a shaman without learning to discorporate or learning spirit travel. In real world shamanism, spontaneous initiation is a thing, you normally need to be struct by lightning or have a near death experience (in glorantha this would trigger the creation of your fetch and the encounter with the Bad Man). At this point you either seek help (training from another shaman), become self taught, or go mad.

HeroQuest Glorantha has the best example of this:

There was a bit edited out:

 

This is all true. Figuring out how to discorporate is a very minor part of becoming a full shaman, merely the first small step on the path. Nonetheless, in RQG you need to follow the explanations laid out in detail in the book about how to become a shaman, probably quite different in HQ I assume. And there is a gaping hole in them as to how to discorporate so as to meet the Horned Man. I think my suggestion is the one that works best, and is best in the spirit, if not the letter, of the rules as written.

[PhilHibbs]

A practical example from my game: one of my players is running Vishi Dunn, who has Discorporate. It's the first rune spell that he cast in actual play, and he cast it 4 times before casting any other rune spells. So yes, it is a viable choice of spell for an assistant shaman. And no, I didn't contrive a scenario that needed lots of discorporation.

Edited July 17, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[Shiningbrow]

This really all comes back to why I started the "What.is a shaman?" thread.

Is it the ability to discorporate without use of spells or hallucinogens? Is it having a Fetch?

The simplest fix (if it needs one, and if you're so deadset on stopping your young apprentice from being able to do so themselves) is actually to.make Discorporation the first shamanic ability acquired ... And possibly for free.

However, personally, I'd just use Spirit Travel as a base discorporation ability.  The apprentice can use it, just very unreliably. Also, nothing says the shaman needs to teach the skill.... 

[jajagappa]

12 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Is it having a Fetch?

This is the core of being a shaman.  You have awakened a part of yourself and opened yourself to being part of two worlds instead of one. 

 

[David Scott]

13 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

This really all comes back to why I started the "What.is a shaman?" thread.

Is it the ability to discorporate without use of spells or hallucinogens? Is it having a Fetch?

A shaman is the mediator between the spirit world and the middle world. They bring the powers of one into the other, in return the spirits get to participate in the middle world and recognition. Shamans learn to access the spirit world by a number methods, drumming, rattling, singing, physical deprivation such as fasting or cold, or using drugs, some of which may be hallucinogenic. Combinations of these methods can be used or a single one. Drugs are problematic as they are generally uncontrollable.

Once in the spirit world it's important to have an ally there. Going alone is dangerous, the dangers are mainly falling prey to manipulative spirits. RuneQuest simulates this by having the shaman create the fetch, their spirit world ally. The idea of the fetch comes from Irish folklore and is similar in concept to the Norse fylgja. In real world shamanism, it's synonymous with power animal, spirit helper, or spirit guide, where it's important to have help/support/ in the spirit world too.

It's important to understand that anyone with practice can go to the spirit world, but it's dangerous without a fetch and or a real world guide. Runequest has a shortcut - Discorporation - an hour long ritual powered by a rune point, effectively bypassing the practice, allowing travel, but not removing the danger.

So what's the most import thing that a shaman teaches their apprentice? How to interact with spirits comes first as this is the primary function. Second to that is learning to travel in the spirit world. Runequest's discorporation makes this much easier, you can concentrate on the interaction, not the staying discorporate. With a fetch you can do do the discorporation easier as you have a spirit world presence.

I've taught real world shamanism for over twenty years now, worked with many different shaman, including Greg Stafford. I also wrote the spirit magic section of HeroQuest Glorantha. RuneQuest Glorantha's spirit world and shamanism draws on that and Greg's concepts of the spirit world. Much of this is based on how Greg worked with the spirits and their world.

[Shiningbrow]

12 hours ago, jajagappa said:

This is the core of being a shaman.  You have awakened a part of yourself and opened yourself to being part of two worlds instead of one. 

 

 

10 hours ago, David Scott said:

<Snip>

Both of which still leave open the possibility of being able to traverse the spirit world without being a "full" shaman, including the ability to discorporate as a skill/ability. Having a fetch isn't required. Nor is having fought the Bad Man... 

The fact it's more dangerous is irrelevant.

[soltakss]

In theory, you can use Discorporation to enter the Spirit World. Assistant Shamans have the advantage that they also learn the Spirit Travel skill, so can move around the Spirit Plane better than most.

Also, how do Assistant Shamans increase their Spirit Travel skill without having the means to Discorporate?

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Also, how do Assistant Shamans increase their Spirit Travel skill without having the means to Discorporate?

Occupational experience?

[soltakss]

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Occupational experience?

Yes, but what does that mean?

Is the Assistant shaman taken on a Spirit Journey and shown what to do? Does the shaman sit the Assistant down and carefully explain what would happen when Discoporate?

[Shiningbrow]

On 7/19/2020 at 11:24 PM, soltakss said:

Yes, but what does that mean?

Is the Assistant shaman taken on a Spirit Journey and shown what to do? Does the shaman sit the Assistant down and carefully explain what would happen when Discoporate?

This is why I think it should be the skill that allows them to discoporate, not the spell.

 

Or, a new shamanic ability that allows them to discorporate others.