Humakti Weapon Gifts vs Sorcery

[Tywyll]

So, if a Humakti has a gift to double damage past armor, and they hit a target warded with the sorcery spell that compares damage on the resistance table...how does that work? Since the damage the target takes is figured after armor, but the spell triggers before armor...?

Is it rolled damage vs Sorcery, the armor, then double remainder? Even if the sorcerer is wearing no armor and all the damage would get doubled?

[HreshtIronBorne]

We have been playing it so that all of the Humakti gift multipliers apply if and only if damage penetrates to flesh/body parts.So, we would have it roll on the resistance table with rolled damage versus the strength of the Ward Against Weapons before any multipliers for gifts. If the damage penetrates the Ward then it would perform as normal.

 

Now I will note that Ward against Weapons is pretty much Garbage versus anything other than newbies or woodland creatures. A new Humakti can hit for 2d8+2+1d6+4 which averages 18.5 or something crazy? you would need an epic Strength Ward against Weapons to matter much past character gen, and I just cannot see it scaling. that same sorcerer probably has Boon of Kargan Tor on his weapon for lets say +2d6, his staff does 1d8+2d6, even the philosopher can get through his own Ward. Weaksauce. 

[Tywyll]

50 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

We have been playing it so that all of the Humakti gift multipliers apply if and only if damage penetrates to flesh/body parts.So, we would have it roll on the resistance table with rolled damage versus the strength of the Ward Against Weapons before any multipliers for gifts. If the damage penetrates the Ward then it would perform as normal.

 

Now I will note that Ward against Weapons is pretty much Garbage versus anything other than newbies or woodland creatures. A new Humakti can hit for 2d8+2+1d6+4 which averages 18.5 or something crazy? you would need an epic Strength Ward against Weapons to matter much past character gen, and I just cannot see it scaling. that same sorcerer probably has Boon of Kargan Tor on his weapon for lets say +2d6, his staff does 1d8+2d6, even the philosopher can get through his own Ward. Weaksauce. 

Agreed. I have always hated how sorcerer defence magic works. As you say it's garbage. But I am not sure how to fix it. It's only real advantage is that it can stop a crit, but again the damage value had better be low. If you dump a bunch of POW it can be strong but...what doesn't get strong with a bunch of POW added?

[Kloster]

49 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

We have been playing it so that all of the Humakti gift multipliers apply if and only if damage penetrates to flesh/body parts.So, we would have it roll on the resistance table with rolled damage versus the strength of the Ward Against Weapons before any multipliers for gifts. If the damage penetrates the Ward then it would perform as normal.

I have the same read as you. This is clearly a port from RQIII.

 

51 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Now I will note that Ward against Weapons is pretty much Garbage versus anything other than newbies or woodland creatures. A new Humakti can hit for 2d8+2+1d6+4 which averages 18.5 or something crazy? you would need an epic Strength Ward against Weapons to matter much past character gen, and I just cannot see it scaling. that same sorcerer probably has Boon of Kargan Tor on his weapon for lets say +2d6, his staff does 1d8+2d6, even the philosopher can get through his own Ward. Weaksauce. 

Agreed, but the low probability to avoid completely the damage is better than nothing: A Ward against weapons with 10 Strength would have 10% chance to avoid said 18 points of damage and 90% of doing nothing. I would not bet my life on it, but I am happy to get it in addition to my armor. In fact, the difference between Sorcery defenses vs Spirit/Rune magic defenses is the same as the one between Dodge and Parry.

[HreshtIronBorne]

I don't want to drag things entirely off track but, for most of our game a Ward against Weapons has a 5% chance of doing something no matter what Strength it is cast at, practical ones anyway. My Humakti PC does BONKERS average damage of something like 4d8+2d6+2d6+8 when in Battle Mode. No Ward Against Weapons will slow that down very often. We have decided it just isn't worth remembering or rolling extra dice every swing for it. We telecommute, so efficiency helps. 

[Tywyll]

9 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

I don't want to drag things entirely off track but, for most of our game a Ward against Weapons has a 5% chance of doing something no matter what Strength it is cast at, practical ones anyway. My Humakti PC does BONKERS average damage of something like 4d8+2d6+2d6+8 when in Battle Mode. No Ward Against Weapons will slow that down very often. We have decided it just isn't worth remembering or rolling extra dice every swing for it. We telecommute, so efficiency helps. 

Wut???

I get the 4d8+2d6. Where does the last 2d6 and the plus 8 come from???

[Shiningbrow]

MRQ had this version of the spell basically doing the same as Protection - but you could ramp up (or down) the strength. Each point was worth 1 AP - no resistance roll stuff.

So did Lunar Sorcery at one point - but subject to the Lunar Cycle (down to no manipulations during Dark Moon!)

[HreshtIronBorne]

Greatsword 2d8 + Truesword 2d8 + Strength Bonus with Strength spell 2d6 + Boon of Kargan Tor from the LM Philosopher in the party 2d6 + Bladesharp 8 (4 + 4 from Enhancing crystal). Without any Humakti Damage related gifts he is pumping out something like 42 AVERAGE damage. Lol

 

RQ: G scales pretty crazily. I have always been a fan of high level RQ though.

Edited May 14, 2019 by HreshtIronBorne

[Kloster]

7 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

MRQ had this version of the spell basically doing the same as Protection - but you could ramp up (or down) the strength. Each point was worth 1 AP - no resistance roll stuff.

So did Lunar Sorcery at one point - but subject to the Lunar Cycle (down to no manipulations during Dark Moon!)

IIRC, RQIII Lunar magic was Spirit magic manipulated with skills like sorcery, so yes, there was a Lunar Protection spell that could be manipulated to great effects and that was subject t moon cycles

[Kloster]

2 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Greatsword 2d8 + Truesword 2d8 + Strength Bonus with Strength spell 2d6 + Boon of Kargan Tor from the LM Philosopher in the party 2d6 + Bladesharp 8 (4 + 4 from Enhancing crystal)

This is power!

[HreshtIronBorne]

Compare Ward Against Weapons Versus Boon of Kargan Tor. Boon can buff a weapon to 2d6 which brings the spell to 8 Strength with whatever duration you please, 8 strength in a Ward Against Weapons gives a 50% chance of ignoring 8 damage... Even a coin flicked casually at you with Boon of Kargan Tor on it has more chance to get through an equal Ward Against Weapons than it really has any right to. A sword swung by a big dude would be doing 1d8+1+1d6+2d6, WAY more than the Ward Against Weapons can hope to ever reliably deflect ever. Wizards have GOT to have some better form of defense. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by HreshtIronBorne

[Brootse]

36 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Compare Ward Against Weapons Versus Boon of Kargan Tor. Boon can buff a weapon to 2d6 which brings the spell to 8 Strength with whatever duration you please, 8 strength in a Ward Against Weapons gives a 50% chance of ignoring 8 damage... Even a coin flicked casually at you with Boon of Kargan Tor on it has more chance to get through an equal Ward Against Weapons than it really has any right to. A sword swung by a big dude would be doing 1d8+1+1d6+2d6, WAY more than the Ward Against Weapons can hope to ever reliably deflect ever. Wizards have GOT to have some better form of defense. 

They have. They can attack their enemies from longer ranges than swordmen can.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Wizards have GOT to have some better form of defense. 

They stand out of harms way as they are philosophers and scribes. Or the smart ones create new spells based on the guidelines in the core book:

Shatter Weapon

Dispel, Summon, Stasis, Death,

4 Points

Self, Passive, Temporal

As a weapon hits its the caster, the hit points of the weapon are compared to the strength of the spell. If the Strength of the spell is equal to or greater than the hit points of the weapon, it shatters before causing damage. Otherwise no effect.

Arrow Rain

Summon, Combine, Water, Earth.

4 points

Ranged, Passive, Temporal

Causes arrows to turn into raindrops.

Creates a hemisphere of light mist around the caster at the range of the spell. As arrows cross the barrier they turn to rain drops.

In the West I suspect spells like this are the norm and everyone knows about them, so warriors steer clear of Wizards.

Edited May 14, 2019 by David Scott
add west info

[Shiningbrow]

Command Air Stasis

Creates a field of solid air around the indiivdual that acts as armour

[Joerg]

When faced with Humakti or a berserker, a sorcerer had better cast Dampen Damage on their weapon(s). That will put the incoming damage way more into the Ward Against Weapons useful range.

 

(Does Boon of Kargan Tor increase the required spell strength for Dampen Damage?)

[Brootse]

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

When faced with Humakti or a berserker, a sorcerer had better cast Dampen Damage on their weapon(s). That will put the incoming damage way more into the Ward Against Weapons useful range.

 

(Does Boon of Kargan Tor increase the required spell strength for Dampen Damage?)

Dampen Damage doesn't affect magical bonuses.

[gochie]

Quick question while we're on dampen damage... Casting a spell on your enemy's weapon can't be resisted, right? 

[Joerg]

12 minutes ago, gochie said:

Quick question while we're on dampen damage... Casting a spell on your enemy's weapon can't be resisted, right? 

Only by allied spirits residing in that blade, I would guess. To be fair, most weapoins protrude significantly from their wielder's aura.

[gochie]

49 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Only by allied spirits residing in that blade, I would guess. To be fair, most weapoins protrude significantly from their wielder's aura.

I thought so... It does say a spirit residing in the weapon can resist in a spell description (was it dull blade?), but wasn't sure if that meant the holder never resists.

Definitely an easier way to dispatch of weapon-centric runelords.

Thanks! 

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, gochie said:

Quick question while we're on dampen damage... Casting a spell on your enemy's weapon can't be resisted, right? 

The Crack spell specifically says that items held are subject to a resistance roll, but I think that is a special case. Some magic is more subtle, and some less so, so the rules can be different. If there were a rune spell that stole an item from someone, that would probably be subject to a resistance roll as well.

[gochie]

8 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

The Crack spell specifically says that items held are subject to a resistance roll, but I think that is a special case. Some magic is more subtle, and some less so, so the rules can be different. If there were a rune spell that stole an item from someone, that would probably be subject to a resistance roll as well.

Damn that's true... I feel like this needs an official answer now.

[soltakss]

On 5/14/2019 at 8:03 AM, Tywyll said:

So, if a Humakti has a gift to double damage past armor, and they hit a target warded with the sorcery spell that compares damage on the resistance table...how does that work? Since the damage the target takes is figured after armor, but the spell triggers before armor...?

Is it rolled damage vs Sorcery, the armor, then double remainder? Even if the sorcerer is wearing no armor and all the damage would get doubled?

We played that it did double Penetrating Damage.

So, you take the normal damage, see if it penetrates armour/magic then double it.

In the example given, I'd roll damage, match it against the spell and double it if it gets through. We played that the Sorcery Spell acted after armour, so you subtracted APs, then matched against the spell and doubled if it got through.

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

We played that the Sorcery Spell acted after armour, so you subtracted APs, then matched against the spell and doubled if it got through.

In RQIII, Resist  Damage and now, Ward Against Weapon  are described as having damage matching the spell on the resistance table before removing armor (RQIII Magic book p45 and RQG p401). YRWV.

[Tywyll]

14 hours ago, Kloster said:

In RQIII, Resist  Damage and now, Ward Against Weapon  are described as having damage matching the spell on the resistance table before removing armor (RQIII Magic book p45 and RQG p401). YRWV.

True, but RQ4 (the unpublished one) did it Soltakss way, which in play I've found to be the only way to really make the spell worthwhile.

Granted, the spells in RQ4 were gated at  1/10th of skill, so you would end up with a smaller defense. 

[Kloster]

On 5/18/2019 at 1:30 PM, Tywyll said:

True, but RQ4 (the unpublished one) did it Soltakss way, which in play I've found to be the only way to really make the spell worthwhile.

Granted, the spells in RQ4 were gated at  1/10th of skill, so you would end up with a smaller defense. 

I didn't knew it. I don't have this one.