Lascerdans

[Manu]

Hi,

I wonder if there is a image of what lascerdans should look like.

[Joerg]

I haven't seen any. The description in the Umathea chapters of Missing Lands has them as quadrupeds and weird heads (horned, alligator-like snouts), otherwise possibly similar to Permian synapsid herbivores, like the Moschops.

The Guide talks about lascerdan slash-and-burn methods, but those don't necessarily mean farming for plants. Fire-farming is an ancient method used by hunter-gatherers to clear undergrowth and attract fresh growth of plants, whether for hunting or for grazing. But we learn from this that the lascerdans had mastery over fire, and apparently also dam building.

Edited June 21, 2019 by Joerg

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, Manu said:

Hi,

I wonder if there is a image of what lascerdans should look like.

Quote

a placid Elder Race of
reptilians known as lascerdans. They were a race of
quadrupeds with a body shaped like a cross between a
crocodile and a seal, with a strange head common to
neither, involving a protruding forehead, horns, and
an alligator-like jaw.

Guide p621

I assume they are related to the Slarges in an attempt to make sense of the mythical events of the region.

[alakoring]

In 1996, Sandy Petersen wrote
 

Quote

 

The Lascerdans fed primarily off freshwater manatees, and their infamous slash-and-burn practices were not true slash-and-burn. Rather, the Lascerdans chopped out huge tracts of forest, burnt the wood, and hauled the greenage back to the rivers to use as manatee fodder. They recognized that they got more useful fodder from cleared areas than from the huge tree-covered portions, so they became tree-enemies.

The exact relationship of the Lascerdans and merfolk is still unclear to me. But then, Pamaltela has enough unanswered questions even in the Third Age, let alone earlier times.

 

 

[g33k]

The quoted official material appears to say that (officially) Lascerdans are extinct.

Is that so, or my mis-reading?

[Sir_Godspeed]

I'm pretty sure that's correct. Everything I've read has said they're gone.

[Lord High Munchkin]

6 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I'm pretty sure that's correct. Everything I've read has said they're gone.

Until the heroquest....

[davecake]

On 6/21/2019 at 11:44 PM, metcalph said:

I assume they are related to the Slarges in an attempt to make sense of the mythical events of the region.

While that is a natural assumption, I'm not sure it is correct. They seem quite distinct from the slarges both racially, and in mythic origin. 

Though we have several reptilian mysteries in Pamaltela to consider:

• Why are there no dragons or dragonnewts in Pamaltela? 
• Why are there so many hydrae?
• The Pelmre of Doraddi myth explains the origins of the slarges to the Doraddi - but are the pelmre really the same as the slarges? In particular, have the slarges always had their peculiar alternating generations reproductive cycle, or did this change at some point? 
• The slarges themselves are of course an ongoing mystery, as regards both the eccentric practices of the giants, and the more regular practices of the regular sized slarges. 
• The Earth titans (Genert and Pamalt) are both represented as reptiles below the waist - and perhaps this means the minor earth female spirits/temple guardians that are known in Genertela have male equivalents, even are somewhat fertile or otherwise more numerous in Pamaltela?

[albinoboo]

34 minutes ago, davecake said:

While that is a natural assumption, I'm not sure it is correct. They seem quite distinct from the slarges both racially, and in mythic origin. 

Though we have several reptilian mysteries in Pamaltela to consider:

• Why are there no dragons or dragonnewts in Pamaltela? 
• Why are there so many hydrae?
• The Pelmre of Doraddi myth explains the origins of the slarges to the Doraddi - but are the pelmre really the same as the slarges? In particular, have the slarges always had their peculiar alternating generations reproductive cycle, or did this change at some point? 
• The slarges themselves are of course an ongoing mystery, as regards both the eccentric practices of the giants, and the more regular practices of the regular sized slarges. 
• The Earth titans (Genert and Pamalt) are both represented as reptiles below the waist - and perhaps this means the minor earth female spirits/temple guardians that are known in Genertela have male equivalents, even are somewhat fertile or otherwise more numerous in Pamaltela?

Most dragonnewts allowed themselves to be slaughtered with the coming of chaos. Only in Kralorela and Dragon Pass did the Dragonnewts  resist. Dragonnewts form the Dragons Eye sent out colonies later.

[scott-martin]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Though we have several reptilian mysteries in Pamaltela to consider:

Adding to list

• Who is Noruma really? 
• How does his/her shamanic system differ from the tantra of Kendamalar and other Pamaltelan magic?
• Who [were] the Amuron or Horned Snake People? [spell it backward or "left handed," sure, but then what?]
• Is the Hydra of Dragon Pass native to the southern continent?
• Who or what is the Flame Dragon Argrath calls from the second direction? Does Hunralki bring it?
• Are there Pamaltelan dinosaurs even in Sandy's lost world?
• Dinosaur hsunchen in Slon. How, why, who, huh?

Edited June 26, 2019 by scott-martin

[metcalph]

6 hours ago, davecake said:

While that is a natural assumption, I'm not sure it is correct.

Please do not respond to old posts telling people they are wrong.

6 hours ago, davecake said:

They seem quite distinct from the slarges both racially, and in mythic origin. 

And have you compared the Slarges to the original Pelm-re?  Revelaed Mythologies p45 describes them as  having "large eyes, a gaping
mouth, a long tail, and small, nearly useless arms" which is closer to a Tyrannosaur than a Slarge.  So if the Pelm-re are related to Slarges, the Lascerdans can be to.

6 hours ago, davecake said:

Though we have several reptilian mysteries in Pamaltela to consider:

• Why are there no dragons or dragonnewts in Pamaltela? 

Bolongo prevented their rise when he murdered the dragon Langamul.

 

[Bill the barbarian]

47 minutes ago, metcalph said:

And have you compared the Slarges to the original Pelm-re?  Revelaed Mythologies p45 describes them as  having "large eyes, a gaping
mouth, a long tail, and small, nearly useless arms" which is closer to a Tyrannosaur than a Slarge.  So if the Pelm-re are related to Slarges, the Lascerdans can be to.

Sir metcalph, I am glad he did. Otherwise I could not read your reply. I have already benefited as have we all. I love reading you both.

Cheers

[g33k]

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

Please do not respond to old posts telling people they are wrong.

Dude.

That was like... a few days ago.  Less than a week.  Not really an "old post," my man, not by this forum's standards.

What's goin' on?

 

[jajagappa]

On 6/26/2019 at 10:54 AM, scott-martin said:

Dinosaur hsunchen in Slon. How, why, who, huh?

Because they are the People that Time Forgot living in the Land that Time Forgot! A little dose of Edgar Rice Burroughs will help you piece it together. 😉

Or blame Zzabur. When Slon gets fractured off the great Earth cube, it gets partially fragmented into the Green Age. Earthshakers still roam, humans are born, the Earth goddess is broken and not there to push them in other directions, so only the spirit of Hykim and Mikyh speaks to them (aside from the dwarfs frantically trying to keep Slon from being pulled completely away by Sramak's River).

Edited June 27, 2019 by jajagappa

[scott-martin]

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

blame Zz-b-r.

Somebody spoke and I went into a dream. His work on the western corner undoubtedly birthed plenty of monsters, jungian shadows, echoes, ghost others . . . some "dragons" like the first children of HYKM/MKYH, some maybe not. Wonder if the sorcerers met the pel-mre on the margin and what they would've thought.

But then there's a lot we still don't know about dragon influences in the west. Serpent kings and likitae, sure, but what else? Did the blue meanies tame "dragons?" 

Come to think of it any culture that venerated Annilla in the form recorded by Thorloss in Troll Gods associated her with dragons as well as the Great Giants. Leaping Lorion, First and Oldest. 

 

[davecake]

19 hours ago, metcalph said:

And have you compared the Slarges to the original Pelm-re?  Revelaed Mythologies p45 describes them as  having "large eyes, a gaping
mouth, a long tail, and small, nearly useless arms" which is closer to a Tyrannosaur than a Slarge.

And the Pelmre are never mentioned as having the unusual breeding cycle of the slarges - I think there may be a story about how the Pelmre became the slarges, likely involving either the Artmali and/or the Vadeli. The Guide treats the Pelmre and the slarges as identical (eg references to pelmre in RM were replaced by slarges).

But I still don't think that implies the slarges and the lascerdans are the same thing, just because they are both reptiles. And the lascerdans seems different in multiple other ways. 

 

[jajagappa]

14 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Did the blue meanies tame "dragons?" 

Brithos is Pepperland? Now if only the dwarves of Slon would lend us their Yellow Submarine...

[scott-martin]

10 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Brithos is Pepperland? Now if only the dwarves of Slon would lend us their Yellow Submarine...

Lost Brithos, once the unearthly paradise, lately sunk and bluely. Four Beatles, four castes, four heirloom instruments. A little nowhere man. Yellow for talar magic. Save the world. Rub noses with the blue boss who hates us and maybe he'll come out in roses.
 

Strange fish to get there though, dragon teeth.
 

[jajagappa]

2 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Rub noses with the blue boss who hates us and maybe he'll come out in roses

Ah, poor Zzabur! What is to become of him when even his nose grows a rose?!

[scott-martin]

29 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Ah, poor Zzabur! What is to become of him when even his nose grows a rose?!

He can finally come back out here with his brothers and sister and participate in the world. We have to forgive that monster first though and that's my personal death rune to bear. Not today. Today the grudge continues. He started it when he murdered God. We're just defending ourselves.

Edited June 27, 2019 by scott-martin
stinger

[Bill the barbarian]

21 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Because it's they are the People that Time Forgot living in the Land that Time Forgot! A little dose of Edgar Rice Burroughs will help you piece it together. 😉

 

I have never wanted to play in Pamaltela (Sorry Sandy!) before this, I have always wanted to play in Pellucidar however. What a great idea!

Edited June 27, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Manu]

Coming back to my question ;), Moschops or Manatee, They seem to be intelligent species, capable of building dams or burning forest. Most probably worshiping gods.

 

Slarge are humanoid creatures. Should I also imagine Lascerdans as a humanoid form of the Moschops or Manatee (depending on the source)?

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Manu said:

Coming back to my question ;), Moschops or Manatee, They seem to be intelligent species, capable of building dams or burning forest. Most probably worshiping gods.

River gods, explicitely mentioned on p.622 of the Guide. I wonder why they are mentioned specifically as Lascerdan river gods, though - I would have expected the local Orlanthi to have taken up some river worship, too, at least the fisherfolk and boating traders.

 

3 hours ago, Manu said:

Slarge are humanoid creatures. Should I also imagine Lascerdans as a humanoid form of the Moschops or Manatee (depending on the source)?

 If you can imagine a humanoid quadruped, go ahead... I thought that the "cross between the body of a crocodile and a seal" (will that give them some sort of tail, or hind limbs like flippers?) combined with "a strange head common to neither, with a protruding forehead, horns, and an alligator-like jaw" was somewhat similar to the synapsid image I linked. Manatees were mentioned by Peter as possible herd animals of these creatures, although I am fairly dubious about the sustainability of manatees as food-providing livestock, or feeding them with plants grown on slash-and-burn forest soil.

I am inclined to give them a similar manual dexterity as Morocanth have, with their fore-limbs unencumbered by their weights while they are semi-submerged in the rivers (which would aid their dam-building), and a three-leg trot for their dry land activities that require manual activity.

[Joerg]

This might be how a Lascerdan looked. (Testing out my new graphics tablet)

(Owes a lot to the Moschops image I posted early in this thread.)

Edited January 7, 2020 by Joerg

[Akhôrahil]

On 6/26/2019 at 3:36 PM, albinoboo said:

Most dragonnewts allowed themselves to be slaughtered with the coming of chaos. Only in Kralorela and Dragon Pass did the Dragonnewts  resist. Dragonnewts form the Dragons Eye sent out colonies later.

But Pameltela also had a lot less problems with chaos.