Joerg

You, construction unit 30, have fallen victim to the heresy of individualism. The greatness of the mostali allows any unit of the appropriate caste to step in for a unit that has become dysfunctional and continue its work with hardly any decrease in efficiency.

More or less disagreeing. There were vast regions of not so densely settled but flowering agricultural communities with very little difference in material culture over distances that span half of Genertela. But then our archaeological record might be just enough to tell that these folk were Hill Barbarians. Not that using the current (or basically post gold-rush) population of California bears comparison with a world based on muscle power. Both these places have been drowned out of vastly bigger former lands (in case of Teshnos) or at least some of their best rice-growing land. The culture of Kralorela is ancient, that of Teshnos saw some longer foreign domination, but maintains a continuity similar to the claim that Ptolemaic Egypt had. Even the Zaranistangi somehow acculturated before their magical leaders disappeared. Their (mixed?) offspring remained. True. Kralorela is large enough for the provinces to have significant local flavor. Teshnos consists of four regions which had some history as separate political and possibly cultural entities, but post-colonial Teshnos has only started splintering with Harstar seceding with Melib. Both offer sufficiently different input to the current whole that the analogies make sense as far as they go. I couldn't say whether Teshnos is an alternate India or rather an alternate Khmer empire. It would even make sense as an alternate Sri Lhanka only. Both are splinters of the former Vithelan empire, which still has political continuity in Vormain, never mind the fragmentation by the floodings. Those (mythical) empires (Vithela, Murharzarm's Dara Happa) beat anything a Bronze Age empire could have hoped to achieve. But then they never were anything like comparable to the Bronze Age, either, but mythic realms. The closest terrestrial analogies would be Atlantis or Shangri-la.

I am more curious about what keeps the impala riders on the backs of their steeds. "Glue" doesn't work on bare buttocks, and doesn't last long enough anyway... Without stirrups, I imagine that there will be no parting shots, only shots from the left broadside. While demonstrating a quite different reality check topic (showing both buttocks and boobies of a super-heroine), a contortion artist demonstrated her inabiity to twist her body that much. (She did manage to twist the shoulders almost 180 degrees to the hips.) But then I suspect Golden Bow and related steed-mounted archery deities to grant magic tthat corrects an arrow's flight path after release from the bow.

This "Bronze Age" is going to haunt us forever... I am perfectly happy to say "it is Iron Age technology level with bronze as the ubiquitious metal", because that's what we have. Coins, the occasional chainmail, stirrups, opus caementitium, glazed pottery, unnecessarily Athenian triremes... And it isn't even like muscle power is the only source of force used. People have put elementals as engines in multiple applications, and the dwarf manikin automatons of all sizes don't quite use muscles and skeletons either. Also, the effects @M Helsdon ascribed to the mongols on the Chinese and Baghdad is rather weak compared to what hit the Gloranthan civilizations repeatedly. I have no problem with a Second Age technologically more advanced than the Third Age, and some leak-overs, and likewise with "Atlantean" pre-Gods War technology for other populations than the Mostali. Those Feldichi of Dorastor, whatever the Gold Wheel Dancer cyborgs were up to, Kadeniti and possibly others that have forgotten they ever had such splendor, or won't touch it again (Doraddi).

I would advise against getting that clone. It might take Jeff away from his keyboard for too long. On the other hand, things may be delegated - Cults of Terror consists of submissions to Chaosium, and while these were heavily rewritten by house staff, a lot of the initial work was done by volunteers/freelancers.

Back when I ran local conventions, I experimented with several independent groups researching the same setting at the same time. We prepared a bunch of locations with encounters, information, etc, and if one party chose to go there, the GM would grab the location write-up and set off to run it for his party. If a second party approached the same locations, the GMs would exchange info, and the parties would become their mutual encounters. If I had to do this for Cthulhu, I guess I would undust my Mythos CCG and select locations, potential allies or at least sources of information from there, and apply it to investigative roleplaying rather than the CCG rules. And yes, this would bring the different parties of investigators into direct influence of cultists plotting against other cultists. It isn't "shoot any caped person wielding a grimoire" style of pulp. Investigators would be encouraged to dabble in Mythos magics, to learn from their semi-monstrous contacts. It might include sending one type of Mythos creature to combat another. Player characters might end up as full cultists, in which case they would step over to the cousins/nephews/etc. And not every cultist will want to end the world tomorrow, some may be in almost sane campaigns of consolidating power. But that's a somewhat different topic, playing CoC in Mythos CCG style. Anyway, the Mythos CCG offers plenty of locations and leads, and might prove as good GMing tools for a multi-party game.

I would like to remind people that Glorantha isn't all about fighting Chaos. The cosmic conflict goes on between the four guardians of the directions and the four or five major contestants for the center of the world, including Orlanth, the Red Goddess, and Kyger Litor. There is one Chaos contestant (who isn't the Red Goddess), but that plot remains shrouded in mystery for the time being. There are enough dangerous things to do, like fighting Sir Ethilrist or trying to reason with Harrek. A somewhat verbose Bestiary with a few sample spells/powers should be enough to introduce broos, vampires or scorpionmen to your game. I'm not entirely sure that I am looking forward to a book "Gods of Chaos". Compared to Gods of Glorantha, this appears to end up as a rather slim volume. I would like to get more Otherworld/Outer World entities and their deities/divine ancestors. We have seen quite a few underworlds mentioned, with denizens like the Diokos horse-like demons of Ethilrist, or the Shadzorings of Greater Darkness and Dawn Age Alkoth. There are Luatha, Altinelans and similar Outer World entities to encounter, whether on explorative journeys or on the hero planes.

Looking at central European Bronze Age, at least the differences in material culture weren't that great. The Unetice culture which produced the Nebra Disk spread over an area from central Germany into the Ukraine. Hallstatt culture and its successor La Tene covered the entire region around the Alps and then some, and Urnfield before sat somewhat further to the east but with a similarly large area. Those small scale differences between rivaling cities is found mainly in Greece and in Mesopotamia. Anatolia had fairly large units, with the Hittites taking the biggest chunks, but Lydia and Phrygia similar unison as far as material culture went. But then we have a hard time discerning the different rider tribes that entered ancient Persia or the Danubian plains from their material cultures. We know about there being different ones from cuneiform and later Greek texts. There are no such textual references for central Europe, and so we don't have the slightest idea who could have gathered warriors from the Rhineland to Moravia (from memory, details may vary) for the battle at the Tollense crossing. (We do know that those folk came from there, using isotope analysis of their teeth.) Peloria with its mainly Dara Happan ordered, Pelandan (re-) built cities among a huge variety of rural folk pursuing quite different forms of agriculture or horticulture. Between Glorious ReAscent and the Perfect Sky several varieties of "rice" and food grasses are mentioned, and likewise e.g. the grass seed tribute upgraded to barley by that offensive Kitori tax collector that resulted in Double Tribute. All this hodgepodge is the result of various migrations, especially up and down the Danube. WIthout different tribal kingdoms by Germanic tribes adopting the Latin culture and those infamous Frankish inheritance splits, the previous Roman culture would have assured a fairly continuous culture. Those tribes that lost their autonomy to any incarnation of Imperial Rome - like the Vandals after conquest by Belisar - were undistingishable from their Roman neighbors. The small states of the Holy Roman Empire did not provide separate cultures, only separate dynasties. In the Dara Happan river valley you have weeders (a culture with a material culture similar to the Basra reed swamp Arabs, or considerably less), rice farmers, upland dry farmers (still dependent on irrigation, though), Manimati swamp and hill dwellers with probably their own traditions of agriculture, Naverians, Jernotians, Spolites, Oronin/Poralistor folk, Sweet Sea Harangvats, and all manner of remnants of Orlanthi-like pastoral groups theyalanized in the Dawn Age. The Lodril/Turos worshippers have some things in common, but are divided by many other details to which they cling with tribal pride. Pelandan city states come across as a fairly homogeneous culture but divided by favourite deities, then overlaid with Dara Happan and later Carmanian overseers. The rivers used to have their own populations, too. It might be the fact that we have stories, local names and local myths, but the diversity in central Genertela beats everything I have seen in the Old World Bronze Age. Not to mention Elder Races... Gloranthan diversity is a good thing, but I don't see it as a Bronze Age feature, more as a consequence of the living myths just on the Other Side, with meaningful interaction by the various populations.

I think that the Solanthi folk or at least some of their ruling families are a branch of the Pendali refugees who settled Basim. But then a majority of the Pendali were absorbed in Serpent King Seshnela, their ancestral ties to the lion spirit possibly remaining strong in some of the lineages, so there is a possibiltiy that some noble family among those Trader Princes who flocked in after the destruction of Old Slontos had this inheritance. If both his paternal and his maternal lineages had lion ancestry, that might explain how Greymane manifested it much stronger than previous chiefs of the Solanthi. But all of this is speculation.

No need to, when reality writes the funny stories. And yes, I basically tried to be helpful.

Ok, let's speculate. Taking a look at Sylila might help here. I have no idea whether the concept of "pants and tunics" has been edited out of canon, but for me this still works. The bear/storm worshippers of Sylila have accepted the role of their deity as the (non-chaotic) steed of the Goddess, and their upper crust has taken most of the Heartlands styles, but retains a few barbarian peculiarities. I tend to think that the rest of the Provinces, except maybe Tarsh with its direct connections to Glamour, look no farther than Sylila to loan Imperial trappings. I expect helmets to be imitated. The Roman legionary helmet and the standard Gaul helmet both inherited from the Etruscan design, so there is some potential here. Only there are quite a few influences of helmet design in Peloria. The Stonewall phalanxes originating in Daxdarian Pelanda possibly have slight variations to their helmet styles, or at least ornamental patterns, making them easily identifyable. (This means that the Lunar Dragoons also share that design, as they donned the hoplite armor of vanquished Carmanian units and took to horses, never mind that those cuirasses were made for foot soldiers.) Fronelan designs came with Syranthir and his 10,000, and probably still dominate Carmanian cavalry helmet design. Given the warrior beast society totems, various beast features might be replicated in those helmets, but certainly lions and bulls. Given the origin of the Lunar Empire in Rinliddi, I can see raptor-beak-shaped helmets featuring in some units. Now, which of these designs would the Orlanthi wish to inherit? Carmanian bull designs will do nicely for Storm Bull worshippers. The Yanafali ram design might be popular in the hills, too. Sun Domers will quite likely borrow from the phalanxes. Not sure about avian trappings other than feathers, though. Footwear. Imperial sandals may be the mark of the person with status. Possibly plateaued ones (think Japanese Geta, rather than heels). Military sandals are quite the high-tech product - Roman sandals had iron studs through the lower soles, offering similar grip to soccer boots. Gloranthan studded sandals probably use some bronze. The Sun Dome Templars are likely to use something like this, possibly mass-fabricated in the Empire. Togas rather than cloaks probably should be reserved for the most Lunarized places, like the Tarshite court or Jillaro. Dara Happa has very strict rules who gets to wear togas. But that doesn't mean that Orlanthi chieftais don't don their cloaks in imitation of Toga style on certain occasions. Belt and cloak clasps: Looking at examples from the Visigoths, imperial workmanship style might be adapted to traditional designs, creating hybrid forms - possibly fabricated in Sylila or Jillaro. The Seven Mothers might provide promotional designs to a wider populace, sneaking Lunar depictions into the everyday dress. Fabrics: Native hill folk textiles are wool or linen. Contact with Dara Happa might provide cotton. Kralori silk hand-me-downs would be rather rare, as silk would be highly coveted by the Heartlanders, but the most affluent Provincials (again the Tarshite court) might get them just so they could show those snot-nosed Heartlanders that they aren't that elevated. A lot of exotic dyes might come across Dragon Pass, giving the Provincials an advantage over the Heartlanders. We know that Moirades and probably Phargentes before him paid good money for Heartland artists to help create Furthest as a modern Lunar city. Those styles will have spread to the wealthy in Tarsh, too, and possibly even aped by people like Kangharl of the Colymar. First of all Orlanthi long swords. IIRC, Orlanthi bronze working has a secret to make their blades almost as durable as iron blades. For those who dont like Lunar curved blades, at least. Runic tattoos, or at least face- and bodypaint or henna. Chariots are ancient traditions for both Dara Happans (though maintained by their Horse warlord oppressors), and of the Orlanthi. That image of Jar-eel and Beat-Pot in the Guide may be such a case. Gladiatorial gear and getup. Denim pants for rebellious youth...

Hmm. I never imagined the Praxians as doing their own pottery, either, but the oasis folk probably do. I don't recall seeing dried animal dung under the main imports to Pavis. The trope of the hamstrung smith plotting his revenge is alive and well in The Coming Storm. There are numerous cultures that never had their own metal production, but relied on trade, tribute or raiding to get their hands on the tools for their main activity. For Praxian purposes, a weak sorcerer able to form/set metal would be a bona fide metalworker.

May I notice that the krater would be the large communal wine mixing container from which the servants would scoop the drinks that would be poured in the skyphos (high cup) or skylix (flat bowl) at the drinker would be filled. The Krater would be refilled with wine and water (under the eyes of the drinkers, so that they knew what potency to expect). Somehow the Greeks managed to produce wine in "cask strength", possibly by adding dried fruit to the mash (or however that is called in wine making). But then I think that wine is rather the exception than the rule in Orlanthi beverage consumption, a sign of status (except in wine-making clans). "You think the beer is weaker these days, Horanth? Well, if your hens aren't laying, I don't have the eggs to give it more substance. I have to be careful with pig blood, overdo it and the entire cauldron will turn bitter." That's the kind of exchange I would expect between a Sartarite brewer providing his thane or chief with the beverage for his public hall and a somewhat disgruntled customer.

The Paps are part of the Praxian culture. Why would you find a metal worker there? Basically, because it is the center of their culture, and so service folk will go there to work for them. Possibly skilled slaves. The presence of a Third Eye Blue smith in Gringle's retinue who works on imported iron rather than smelting his own is a similar case. There were glass-workers at Hedeby, in an otherwise glass-less Viking culture. The merchant population of Hedeby apparently didn't move there entirely voluntarily, either, but were convinced to abandon their original Vik in Mecklenburg. While no The Block might be the place where the metal worker would find most of his customers, but then there he will find too many of his customers' customers, from the nearby marsh. But the likelihood of a metalworking slave or two at the Block is quite high, too.

"Not yet", as in "Do you know the name of this metropolis in Esrolia?" Along with Corflu one of the more fancy ways of naming in Glorantha.

So basically this tells us that wine and other liquids aren't (usually) stored in barrels. That doesn't mean that there are no barrels for other commodities. The taste of barrels (or of resin on skin) is an acquired taste in beverages. As we are unlikely to have cognac, rum or whisky, this doesn't really matter much. I am a bit torn about beer. It has been present since neolithic times and is one of three major ways to make grain comestible (the other two are porridge and bread). It can be prepared in ceramics, but those need to be suitable for cooking (not a great deal, since most cooking is going to be done in ceramic vessels, but then those may be usually a bit more porous, like the Roman clay pot that is still in use in modern kitchens. But then cauldrons are quite bronze-agey, too - the Gundestrup cauldron may have come to Denmark in the Roman Iron Age, but it draws on Hallstatt motives, and the exact date of its fabrication is unknown. Its purpose doesn't seem to have been connected to any fire, possibly as a mixing basin for wine (which would indicate Greek influence rather than Roman, since those Roman barbarians drank wine straight). Decorated items are a major theme. Sword hilts might look like animal mouths with the blade symbolizing a tusk or the tongue. Greaves won't be smooth but might for instance recall tree stems, providing the wearer with a stand rooted in the earth, or have winged designs to allow swift (forward) movement. Ceramics require quite a bit of firewood or charcoal, which needs to be imported to Pavis as well. This reminds me a bit of the teak-wood sugar chests which created a furniture industry in the colonial period, making the container just another ware in addition to the content. So, yes, Pavis will receive a lot of goods in wooden containers because those containers provide a secondary line of business, and quite a bit less in ceramic containers because those aren't that high in demand. This doesn't apply to the elevated society that comes with the occpation force, though. Although the Paps is one place where you would go to find a metalworker. There's also the possibility to combine baskets with bladders or sewn skins, creating a container that is lighter than either amphorae or barrels and as protected from impacts. The main drawbacks are less durability over time and an influence on the taste, but like with modern cask effects praised by connoisseurs of various brandies, this will be an acquired taste. (I suppose un-chlorinated tapwater will taste funny to people who don't have any other tapwater, too.) Or where transportation by waterway is limited. For overland transportation on wagons, amphorae will most likely be put into basket-like protectors or surrounded by lots of (valuable, to the farmers) straw (but as valuable to the recipients in say Pavis). Clay, water, and fuel (or some other source of fire). For Pavis, the water requirement can be a show-stopper, too. On the other hand, use of waste water with urea may improve the quality of the stuff in the kiln. Barrels are boats that go around all the way, instead of stopping halfway around. Any culture that builds boats with planks will produce tubs. The main difference from barrels to boat building are the hoops, but funnily those are inherited from an older boat-building technology, reed boats, or bound rafts. Basically an inheritance from basket-making. Creating the planks for a barrel or for a boat requires the same skills, the same tools and the same problems with water-tighting. Using metal (as nails, for hoops, or for surface protection) for boats or barrels may be a quite recent development - possibly one initiated by the Jrusteli Free Men of the Seas. The God Forgot tin tubs appear to be the extreme of this development. There will be dugout wooden vessels, too, in both senses of vessel. The Roman clay cooking pot can be upscaled as a container, and is like made for keeping meat. You don't transport sausages in flasks, either, but in glasses with a wide top and some form of non-glass lock (needn't be a screw-on metal lock, anything that takes a seal with some available sealant like wax will do). Wide-opening earthware with an earthware lid is common in kitchens, so why not on the road?

In that regard, the Orlanthi sacrifices are quite similar to the Norse blot - blood and certain other parts for the gods, the rest for the worshippers. In the Norse blot the blood would be used similar to holy water, sprinkling the attendants. The tithes are covering the communal service - the annual crop blessing, defense strengthening and weather correction magics. Those cover the days when the priest and godspeakers are too busy to cater for your selfish needs. But there are other days, and dependants never stop asking for food.

Congratulations, and isn't it delightfully ironic that the origin of the D&D magic system now resides within the BRP family?

There appear to be fixed demands for specific cattle (even up to the coloration) for certain rites, like "on the Dark Season holy day, sacrifice five black bullocks". Those are for communal sacrifices and blessings, however. There appears to be no direct connection between the sacrifice's POW and the POW value of the magic in mainstream cults' sacrifices. If there was such a practice, it would reek of evil sorcery or vampirism. There are other forms of symbolic sacrifice, like sacred items reusably sacrificed, which makes the process more like a dedication of the item to sustain this blessing than a destruction. In such a case, it would be interesting what happens if the item sacrificed this way was lost to the community (and entire scenarios or mini-campaigns could result from this if removing such a blessing would create a major weakness in an enemy organisation). But there is another point to this: such blessings through sacrifice often have a duration way beyond the up to three combat scenes duration of RQ divine magic, although with a much lower impact. There hasn't been anything like this in RuneQuest except for Bless Crops and Earthwarm.

I have similar reservations about the masks of the Emperor following Takenegi's disappearance. There will be no 100% identity in any of these take-overs, and the original person will shine through at times. But there will be demonstrable identity. Maybe it is a state of being stuck in heroforming, and maybe there will be waves or cycles of stronger presence of Being Arkat. There might be confusion with Arkat's closest (undisclosed) companions who underwent the Troll Rebirth with him, too. If you read the description of the ritual, there were seven participants, and seven instances where one participant failed, but Arkat performed flawlessly. How much was the Arkat retrieved from Hell the original Arkat, anyway? With every heroquesting experience, a person changes its self. How do you measure identity against that?

I don't think that the Red Emperor counts. While the new masks bear strong resemblance to one of the new members of the Egi, and that person's family may be granted more favor than prior to their member's ascension to the Egi and providing the face, the new body is likely to have features of other Egi as well. But then, I think a similar change in body happened when the first (and only) Takenegi took over much resemblance with Doskalos. About the rebirths of the Great Sister I cannot say much. She is supposed to be made up of all the portions lacking in the Emperor, but I cannot find any evidence that she changed her mortal shell every time the Emperor did. I think the five future Arkats in Ralios fall into this category. One day a power-hunting hero or noble, the other day one of the Arkats. GilamDestau, the western mask of Shang-Hsa MhNbC, apparently did a "reincarnate in your newborn son" stunt as acting Kralori emperor. Forang Farosh is more of a victim as a cursed spirit in his new body. Sorana Tor in Tarsh might be such a case, too.

Getting a grip on the Lunars is hard, as they work only in connection with the multitude of Pelorian local cultures and pantheons. They have followed everywhere where Dara Happan administrators supervise the population, which is pretty much all lowland Peloria. A rather complete set of stories about the Red Goddess, her mortal experience, her big quests, her enemies, and her successors in Peloria might be a good start, and given that there are several novellas or stories by Greg that have been circulated to very small audiences or read at conventions, that should be possible. I realize that few of those stories will be finalized, but I would be fine reading what is there in sidebars next to more factual descriptions of the Goddess, her religion, and her foes. Presenting mystical world view in a way that allows people to grasp it and play it is a lot harder, as the preceding discussion in this thread shows. To directly worship the Red Goddess you must be mystically awakened, "sevened" in their own terms, "illuminated" in Cults of Terror terminology. Providing spell lists and cyclical magic effects is not that big a deal, but conveying what the deeper Lunar mythology wants to bring about is almost as bad as trying to predict dragonewt behavior. For instance, how much is the Lunar Empire instrumental or necessary for the goals of the Goddess? Has it already fulfilled its purpose? There are devout worshippers of the Goddess and her pantheon outside of the Empire who have little track with the Red Emperor and his decrees.That might mean that they are missing out on something important, but it might also mean that those living inside the Empire might miss out on important insights those non-imperial Lunar worshippers might have. There are other manuscripts, like stuff about the Lunar army, with adventures you may experience should you have joined. Even without the subcultitis of the Hero Wars era, stuff like this will have to deal with regimental deities, homeland customs of the place of origin for the unit, etc. The Champions of the Red Moon supplement was a valiant attempt to give some impression of interlocking interests of an association in the Empire. But again, too many subcults, too many obscure and not really player friendly groups, and no real direction where a campaign inside that structure could go. And of course no information on the setting where all of these branches would be active. That supplement had a massive information overload, too many characters to follow - easily more than the number @Ian Cooper kept in his Red Cow campaign. But any realistic campaign anywhere near the Silver Shadow would easily have more than 120 major families with agendas of their own, networks of alliances, etc. Keeping track of those requires a mind like Varys from Game of Thrones. Since that publication, the Guide now offers some local detail for the Empire, possibly doubling or tripling the overview the old Genertela Box offered. But each city mentioned in the Guide will have administrators from powerful families from the Tripolis or Glamour, locally powerful families at odds with one another, devout lunatic agitators igoring the politics (and getting snuffed ever now and then, and easily replaced), trade networks, crime, and other local color. I would love to see one or two of these places elaborated and given a sandbox campaign, but one such project takes several years of work by a single creator, and maybe half that if a group of five coordinates their efforts. A work by any more far-flung committee like Champions of the Red Moon won't provide enough cohesion. The Stafford Library is not really forthcoming with directly playable stuff about Peloria. The Glorious ReAscent ends with the Battle of Argentium Thri'ile in the Dawn Age, and complicates the "unified Yelm" cult that we had for RQ3. But then that syncretic cult write-up always felt to me like it described an ideal composite cult that wasn't reality anywhere Yelm or one of his cognates were worshipped. The Fortunate Succcession offers a catalog of rulers with a few deeds and events of their reigns - useful historical background, few of which translates into gaming sessions unless you play Dara Happa Stirs in a Second Age campaign. (And try getting the EWF right for that...) The Entekosiad is the most confusing of the works that deal with Peloria. It offers local myths and history, but fails to provide a coherent overview. We get to know some of the local cultures in the western half of the Empire, and the quest of Valare Addi, which is either too mystical or too scholarly to spawn a game (and look who states that), and set in the first or second wane, in the past. Some of the unpublished stuff by Greg is even more confusing. Personally, I would like an official supplement for Lunar Tarsh, which has enough advanced Lunar culture in Furthest to offer a glimpse of what goes on further north, and two very Lunar factions (around Fazzur and Pharandros) badly at odds with one another and with a number of powerful players from the Heartlands (like Tatius). This should keep things relatable. Putting the Paulis Longvale narrative from Cults of Terror into a campaign sandbox would be another interesting approach from the fringes. So, getting into the Lunars is problematic if you want to go right into the middle of them, unless you are willing to make up things as you go and to know that you will be contradicted by canon on more than 75% of your creation.

Elmal definitely is worshipped as one of the rival suitors for Esrola, with Heler being his rival. In Nochet a deity named Harono might be worshipped instead. At least used to be worshipped. Magasta will be worshipped by the coastal folk, many of whom are culturally Pelaskite, although probably having adopted some features of the neighboring Esrolians into their culture. But then there is little point for inland folk to worship any sea deities, except at sites like Ezel (or Hrelar Amali in Ralios).

The date of his birth coincides with the rebirth of Teelo Estara, so that makes him and Teelo Estara the connected pair. There was no Red Emperor at AgartuSay's birth. So basically, the pair of Red Emperor and Great Sister together are Sheng's Other. I'll refer you to the Yelm myth of discovering the existence of his Other. I'll have to check where this was, might have been the Basko Black Sun story, might have been in GRoY, or might have been in the RQ3 full cult write-up. Now who is the God Learner here? We have the story about Yelm's Other, which happens to be his shadow. Nysalor's "at the edge of light" also mentioned a shadow. Bad wording here. "Once apotheosized"? Or "once transcended beyond the Ultimate", which quite evidently neither Sheng nor Rufelza are, yet. By the time she rises into the Middle Air, she has won her fight for a place in the Cosmos. That's what Castle Blue was all about. And no, Owning a Rune is not Being a Rune. You may have an Other as a Great Deity. It doesn't have to be another Great Deity. Usually it is revealed to you in a struggle. Rashorana is a Lunar deity version of Rashoran. Rashoran is the original teacher of illumination, according to Cults of Terror, and known in Orlanthi circles. Apotheosized to the Other Side... IMO clear evidence that he is there. Out of contact, but that's different from dead and gone. There was no Arkat on the Other Side prior to his apotheosis. Ever since, there is. Or, in other words, in the timelessness of the Other Side there was an Arkat, but unreachable for denizens of the Middle World before his apotheosis. Sorcerous magics usually don't rely on an Other Side presence other than the Grimoire node (the energy channel to these spells). Five times, last I checked. Yeah, I'll go for other, too. Still the fact remains that AgartuSay was triggered by Teelo Estara. That she may have passed this on to her physical representations in the Middle World is something else, so I don't mean to contradict the status quo which (semi-correctly) mentions the Red Emperor only.

That's what the Guide says. On the other hand, AgartuSay was born in the moment that Teelo Estara entered the Surface World, very much like Arkat and Nysalor. To me that indicates that he is the shadow at least of Teelo Estara's office - which may have gone over to Takenegi. If so, Takenegi is only the third embodiment of that office, following Teelo Estara and Doskalos. I wonder about the physical continuity between Doskalos (who died at Castle Blue) and Takenegi, too - the History of the First Wane tells us that the Red Emperor left his son Vakthan in charge of Carmania, after troubles in the first years of the Wane. Who exactly is the father of Vakthan? And how old was Doskalos in 1247? At best barely over 20, so how old could a son of his have been? Nowadays we know about the Egi, a small group of individuals on the Red Moon jointly creating the mask of the Emperor, and Vakthan's father could have been any one of them besides Doskalos. But not her Shadow. Rashoran(a) is the overarching concept of which Nysalor - and by necessity Arkat - are expressions. Until their reunion on top of the tower in the City of Miracles, neither of them was complete. The way I understand it, each of them lived in a separate reality, perceiving the other as Gbaji. Only the being that returned from that battle was complete, and no longer separated by Gbaji, the need for different realities gone. What is your source for that? The God Learners may have cut off ways leading to Arkat on the Other Side, but they were never able to erase him. The beef between Orlanth and Rufelza/Sedenya is rulership of the Middle Sky, aka Middle Air.