Joerg

Obviously your idea of a "port" is my idea of a fishing hamlet that doesn't regularly see any sizeable ship, except for slavers and similar raiders. Such decentralized places use boats for trading, or overland routes. If you look at the population numbers for Heortland, you will notice the rather small population for the County of the Isles. I would be astonished if the bayward coast beneath the cliffs had half as many inhabitants. Life below a cliff brings an additional risk of rock slides and nowhere to run in case of storm floods - even the islands offer better protection. Most of the fisherfolk population stick to the wider lowlands around the estuaries where their farming and gardening on the side has better conditions, too. You also over-dramatize the beaching of a keeled boat. So what if it tilts by a few degrees, the sailors are used to worse angles when fighting waves. Cargo can be secured without any additional problems. These small hamlets don't have any cargo that would require a grain barge sized ship to drop anchor. If they still are the destination for such a ship, these hamlets have boats that go out to meet the ship, take on the cargo, and that's it. If the crew wants to make landfall anyway, they probably make use of these boats, too. I have been a coast dweller for all of my life. I have some hands on experience with coastal fishing from boats, using boats on coasts (or avoiding to do so on other coasts), and I have taken a special interest in the separate fisherman communities next to cities which rarely allow strangers into their ranks. Fish and other seafood is hard to conserve if you don't live in very cold conditions (where air-drying of cod is an option - I lived there for a while, too, and took an interest in their ways of life in old times). Admittedly, my experiences of the Mediterranean are limited. But there isn't any sea approaching the Mediterranean in Glorantha. The Homeward Ocean is an ocean, with conditions like the Atlantic coast. The marshlands south of Prax are in all likelihood saltwort-bedecked mudflats of rather treacherous footing, with tidal pools and channels where rocks or rocky outcrops create some places that traps water. Occasional beach ridges (where sediment from against the dominant current are deposited) will protect genuine marshland with brackish water, a few possibly stable enough to be the home for a small adult newtling population. Some such places might even have sand dunes. Even without rocks sticking up now and then, such coasts are extremely treacherous, and sailors avoid landfall unless they have an estuary or other bay offering some protection from the wave action. Flat bottom or not, if a storm drives a ship on a sandbar while there are significant waves, the hull will be shattered - even modern steel hulls. A little bit of statistics here. The Jutland coast between Römö and Skagen saw 3608 registered beachings in the years between 1850 and 1925, with 2111 of these total losses. That's almost one ship per week, on average. There is a good reason why people sought alternative routes across the peninsula, even if that meant multiple cases of transshipping and even some overland transport, or building canals. Actual ships rarely were moved overland before there were artificial waterways. A few instances are documented, however. Drag i Tysfjord, the place where I lived in Norway, had a similar history. It used to be a coastal Finn (i.e. Sami) settlement that traded with and paid tribute to the Halogalander (Viking) chiefs (self-styled kings) of Steigen or Skrova. Both of these accessed Drag not from the Tysfjord, but entered the southern neighbor fjord Innhavet and used boats to travel on two lakes that covered most of the distance to Drag. The (very small) city of Garding on Eiderstedt had a "sea harbor" that was served by poled barges that transshipped from a side inlet into the Eider river through enhanced ditches, some of which may have started out as natural drainage routes while the last part definitely was dug by manpower. The distance to the transshipment point was about 10 land miles. Overland transport was not an option as there were no useful roads, even the great cattle herd trecks to Flanders had to start across trackless land before joining the Ochsenweg south, as cattle didn't really take well to sea travel, and were perfectly capable of walking the distance. One of the scenarios in the German HeroQuest scenario collection touches this region. So, in conclusion - there were no settlements anywhere near the outer coast in this region, although some farming hamlets without any useful access to the sea would come within two miles or so. Fisherfolk who also doubled as whalers, seal hunters or merchant navy hands lived on inlets or sheltered bays. (For given values of sheltered, as the great changes wrought to that coast by the Mandrenkes showed.) In Norway, some isolated steads would be accessible only by boat or small ship, but for trading they would load their own boats and sail or row to the nearest port where merchant ships would deign to make landfall, or where local merchants had pooled to construct and operate a merchant vessel of their own. And that for a region where most of the grain was imported (even though people would sow it for yields that varied between 80% and 120% of the seed amount rather than losing even more of it to vermin and rot). These people were dependent on overseas trade for their health if not bare minimal survival, and they did not expect merchant vessels to drop by. So basically, I find your definition of port ludicrous. A settlement of less than 500 people wouldn't be called a port. It might sport a harbour or useful anchorage, but that's a different proposal and has nothing to do with loading or offloading significant amounts of goods on the beach.

Ports located on river estuaries: Take a look at the Kethaelan ports, which would be the home ports for these ships. Other than Seapolis and the City of Wonders, they are located at river outlets. So is Handra, or the few sea ports of Maniria. Both major Esrolian ports are situated on the major river mouths - which makes sense as transshipping point. All Heortland ports are situated on river mouths, and some of the cities further upriver are documented as having been attacked by Jrusteli-designed fire barges, which means that smaller trade ships would be able to get there, too. River estuaries use tidal current to allow ships to enter, which admittedly is rather weak in Glorantha (despite the use of tidal waves by the Waertagi). River esturaries also offer (often the only) sheltered anchorages or beaching sites with reduced wave action in the absence of rugged coastlines provided by rocky promontories. With the Gloranthan Annilla tides happening only twice a week, I wonder whether in-rushing tidal currents may be a natural phenomenon on the Gloranthan coasts independent of passive water movement, echoes or ancestors of Worcha. If so, what makes them roll in somewhat periodically? Wikipedia tells us about standardized sizes for wine amphora with about 39 litres, or the Roman use of the Amphora as a volume unit of a cubic foot (about 29 litres). This means that a wine amphora will weigh about 60 kg, which is within the carrying capacity of a single dock worker. The pointed bottoms of these containers suggest that they could be rammed into loose sand to stand somewhat reliably. For transport in ships they may have been protected by straw or reed from direct contact to reduce stress, or they may have been sturdy enough to survive some shock in direct contact if stowed like in this reconstruction image: If someone had to provide straw and rope to bind the amphorae together, you need another packing master on board. It is possible that loading used a bucket-chain method, meaning that each dock worker would just pass on an amphora over a short distance. That would depend on the type and size of river boat used. Maybe the Venetian gondola is a good measure for a lighter boat operable by a single rower in tolerable currents, in that case I would guess at maybe twenty wine amphorae of 60 kg as a boat load. Other standard containers would include baskets (which may have been used as a more permanent shock protection for amphorae, too), animal skins (again possibly protected from mechanical stress by baskets), or barrels. Barrels are documented (by Romans) as an established technology for La Tene Celts. A well-made barrel has the advantage that it can be rolled. Barrel hoops would be made from bast fibre, the prehistoric and ancient nylon equivalent in tensile strength and weight. Any culture that uses planks for boat building, possibly sewn with bast rather than using nails, will get the idea to produce little boats as containers, and to enclose them. But then the technology to make a coracle will also provide a container if you put the supportive framework on the outside rather than the inside of the leather skin, and may quite likely have been there before the water vessel. (I wonder whether there ever was a naval design using pottery for lift. The dwarf "opus caementicium" floating castles are just a variation on this principle.) The "barrel of Diogenes" was in all likelihood a ceramic pithos storage vase. This is a fine example how tradition will replace unfamiliar technological terms with familiar ones. Constructing a permanent quaye is often thwarted by tidal variations. I wonder whether ports without a permanent quaye would use pontoons or rafts instead. Such constructions may have left little more archaeological evidence than underwater post holes, which aren't as easy to detect as post holes on dry land.

If they use them for coracles, they will have recognized the value for boat-building, and the boat-builders will surely trade some of the less suitable material for good food, good leaden coin or material they have a harder time to obtain with human shipwrights. Like e.g. decent oars from Tastolar timber. Sure, the price might be heftier than expected, but I think a hull sheathing of beetle carapace will still be less costly than one of lead. There might even be troll shipwrights on Diros Island off Nochet providing this service. I am not quite sure how far the warmth-dependent boreworm will be spread along the coasts of Genertela. Umathela most likely has them, Jrustela quite likely, and Teshnos and further east quite likely, too. Solkathi is a branch off one of the Togaran doom currents, so it might be just warm enough. Choralinthor might cool down enough in the winter to keep the critters from becoming permanent guests. For real world distribution, due to slight warming (nigh imperceptible to the people braving the water in what goes for summer here) and bilge water transfer, the bore-worm has just recently made its way into the Baltic Sea and is starting to damage centuries old shipwrecks, creating something of a feeding frenzy among marine archaeologists in the region. That means that vessels restricting their traffic to the Neliomi Sea probably are safe without such precautions.

It is Martin's own, and I don't quite agree with all of it. I wonder whether these boats would use side swords, like the dutch coastal vessels which were made for conditions just like these. "Fully decked" would be unconvenient when stowing amphorae, and I know of no ancient merchantman design using this. At least in my Rightarm Isles there are sons of Lodril peeking through the sand, so falling dry cannot be done just anywhere, even with a magically enhanced hull. Lead-clad hulls in the vicinity of trolls and their sea-troll allies, who can create coinage simply by chewing a bit on the metal? Copper-sheeting sounds more likely, or possibly more exotic solutions. Why not use ham beetle chitin plating? A lot lighter, and you need a lot less lead to get these food leftovers from Shadow Plateau. The Molakka spells warding off bore-worms might be stencilled inside already, or possibly you use a bait bar magically attracting all the nearby bore worms which can be sold in port as a troll delicacy. Mixed operation with sleek galleys and tubby sailships are a nightmare to keep together, and then to get anywhere. Galleys on escort duty usually would use sails, but the tubs sail at their own timetable, and military needs be damned. In shallow waters, the tubs often are poled rather than rowed. Hiring draft teams of whichever muscle power is available is a common tactic, too. Newtlings and ducks are available in coastal Maniria for amphibious duties, and friendly ludoch might, too. Using a distant anchor and a winch might be another slow but steady way to move forward. Newtlings might provide an underwater infrastructure for this where river currents are difficult similar to the rings the river boaters used in Donaudurchbruch upriver from Kelheim (they wouldn't interfere with sea currents, though, those are the realm of the Ludoch). Here's an image of the rings that allowed boaters to use hooks to pull their boats against the considerable current in Donaudurchbruch: I envision something similar on the sea floor, with rings that a diver could place a hook in, and then a rope pulling event or a winch drawing the vessel ever so slowly against the resistance. Or you hire a river priest to create a local counter-current, but that might be too expensive if you run a low margin cargo - maybe you might join a convoy led by a local river priest/pilot for less, but then you'll have to wait. The Waertagi of old rode their tidal waves instead, pushing the river currents back into their channels, or overlaying them, but I doubt that the Ludoch allow the Rightarmers this privilege. Most of the ports are situated on river estuaries, or even upriver, away from the sea. The river priests' influence would thin out as the water gets saltier, but extends some distance from the shore.

I do miss NPC stats... not for your everyday goon, but for characters on a comparable (or higher) competence, and possibly to toss in as spare characters if someone drops in and doesn't want to retrofit a new person into the narrative. They do convey some idea what the author of a scenario or campaign thinks the characters should look like. And while the consumer is free to ignore them when he makes a scenario or setting his own, at least the author has a way to communicate how he envisioned the scene when he wrote it. But that's just simulationist old me.

Hungry Plateau has a canonical elevation of 5000ft, which corresponds to 1.5 "key" miles rather than 15 miles. I guess that decimal point was lost in transcription.

18 scenarios, not quite as many settings, and no deep setting descriptions (but then, do you need any for a FBI game when you have resources like "X-Files" or "Quantico", or for Viking Age Europe?). I contributed one Glorantha scenario (collaboration) and some editing. There are plans for more scenario collections. Like Robin said in the interview, producing such a book brings quite a lot of work people don't really see, and basically the authors, editors and artists worked pro bono. Such a project comes in several steps, but one initial step is to go around and get scenario submissions. That part isn't too dissimilar what has been done in the Organized Play section for Cthulhu and upcoming RuneQuest Glorantha. There is nothing to stop us from getting a similar initiative here on the forum. (And I know for certain that Robin won't mind translating English language submissions or pass it off to someone willing to do so - my initial offer was the English language proposal for my scenario.)

And do feed the trolls. (When you meet them, offer them some food and a greeting in Darktongue...)

Well, there are tusks involved, and breaking of bones. Basic cosmetic surgery before an induced coma.

After the unfortunate real world history of the swastika, it is fairly natural for us to be somewhat concerned, so it is good to have this as an official statement. Might be even better to have it stated in an official publication presenting the runes - if that is too late for the Glorantha Sourcebook, maybe in RQG.

Moirades personally researched high level Lunar magic, according to the Fazzur piece in WF, which I took to be the cause for the moonbeam which served Terasarin to the dinosaur. That takes master class scrying if that was a planned attack. I assumed that if you are a research magician who founds a university you want to lean on that institution for support in your research. But then it is astonishingly hard to find solid facts on Moirades. Sartar Kingdom of Heroes for instance has Moirades personally asking Fazzur to step in with the Starbrow Rebellion in 1613, contradicting the info that Moirades remained dead after 1610. (Glorantha being a magical world, I won't doubt that Moirades experienced more than the Little Death when siring Phargentes on Jar-eel, ascending to the Red Moon. The question is whether he stayed there for good, or whether he was available for occasional appearances in Tarsh e.g. dealing with Starbrow's rebellion in 1613 or at the Fall of Furthest. Aronius Jaranthir managed to do so, too. That 1610 death date for Moirades discredits a lot of the information in King of Sartar - even the new Fazzur fragment that was added to CHDP in the hardcover edition. But the data on his involvement with the university is in the only portion of CHDP which agrees with the 1610 death date, right next to the information on starving folk in the Heartlands. I notice that you haven't deigned to comment on the ILH1 text. Is that beneath your canonicity rating? The theory isn't exactly new, and neither is the source material I have based it on. But apart from the Mirin's Cross university datum in The Coming Storm, I haven't seen any counter-proof so far, only lack of evidence in other publications. I don't doubt that Mirin's Cross will have an educational institution catering to Provincial Lunars. I only doubt that Moirades was involved with it. It is a feat of Lunar magic that is reasonably traced to Moirades. But then, the topic at hand was the grain support of the Lunar Army, where I brought up the grain support of the Heartlands emitted from Tarsh. I was told that there was no need for it, and I reacted to that by bringing up the wealth Tarsh made from it, and the numerous ways Tarsh invested that wealth. This university disagreement about Moirades' involvement is a distraction from that topic. Nope. Just a reminder that I do read sources, contrary to your allegations. ILH 1 p.55. Scholars and artisans flocking to the Kingdom of Tarsh. Also the Tarsh section of CHDP. Where would they go but to the capital? And wouldn't scholars be attracted by an institute of higher learning, whether you call it university or great library? Apparently not that helpful. Mirin's Cross: Population 25k. A metropolis. Furthest: Population 20k. A large city. The difference between Furthest and Boldhome (which has 11k) is way larger than the difference between Furthest and Mirin's Cross. I see some justification to my (irrelevant to the main topic) statement that outrages you. For how long has Mirin's Cross been a metropolis, anyway? Do read the discussion, please. The dispute is whether the wealth comes from the Tarsh grain exports, and that in turn from whether the Heartlands are depending on the steady flow of grain barges down the Oslir. Which I point out that they must be, or there wouldn't be any shipping away from the troops in Sartar and the Holy Country that rely on grain deliveries. All the rest is me getting distracted to show the volume this trade must have by pointing out all the expensive projects financed by the Tarshite court, and you taking offense at my conclusions. Ok. Let's start with the Guide, p.175. I read "as a Lunar colony" like the way Massilia or Colonia Agrippina were colonies, settlements where people from the mother culture emigrated. It is possible that the majority of Heartlanders who followed Phargentes into the outskirts of Dragon Pass were from Sylila, where he and his brother's followers (and the Orindori family) had spent their exile during the reign of Palashee. (Philigos spent most of his reign in exile as a sycophant and petitioner in Glamour.) Information on Palashee's Furthest mostly comes from the Exile POV in the CHDP. That text states that Palashee made Furthest his capital, after the Lunar account of the Tarsh CHDP claiming that Palashee destroyed the place. The Guide suggests that Phargentes razed whatever structures were inhabited under Palashee when he established his colony. Possibly excepting earth temples. Of course my conjectures are more authoritative than yours - said with a tongue in cheek. Your accusation that I don't read the sources is what riled me up. Tarsh has been delivering the corn since Phargentes got his kingdom back to working order, so there is no hunger. We don't read about grain exports other than in tribute/taxes from any other place in the Empire, with the possible exception of Oraya. The other provinces deliver their tribute to the Empire, Tarsh delivers more, and makes big money from it. ILH p.55, and that comment didn't come out of nowhere. What was your source for Phargentes exploiting the other Provinces to the benefit of Tarsh? Other than the statement in Glorantha - Introduction to the Hero Wars, I cannot find any. I don't contest that conjecture, but it stands as an authoritative statement. Apart from the northeastern corner of Aggar, there is only Holay on the Oslir downstream of Tarsh before the Heartlands begin. Southern Holay and northern Tarsh should have the same success or failure of harvests unless the Tarshite Hon-eel cult knows things that the Holay cult doesn't. And what happens north of Mirin's Cross happens in Sylila as well, as far as weather, climate and fertility magics go. All within the Glowline, too. I agreed with Martin Helsdon that starving peasants wouldn't be a normal state, whether in the Heartlands or the Provinces, unless someone in the Empire duplicated the failure of the French kingdom that led to the revolution. Starving urban mobs however are a distinct possibility. No idea how much the Lunar demagogues that were described when we still had people working on Imperial Heartland material are deprecated now, but I found the notion of a religiously roused but otherwise unproductive rabble fed on imported maize convincing. (p. 14 ILH2, for instance, although I would replace the soapbox with something more period-appropriate. The use of soap in the Heartlands still is somewhat contested, anyway...) Terasarin pushed the borders from the Creek to the Dragonspine, and his reign saw major campaigns. Hardly a period of peace for Tarsh as a whole, although the Oslir Valley saw little of that conflict. Other troubles like the Tusk Riders were there, too. Which is why Aggar and Holay aren't wealthier than Tarsh after nearly two wanes of peace? Much like Sartar imported culture and craftsmanship from Kethaela, Phargentes and Moirades imported from the Empire. Maybe including Mirin's Cross, maybe mainly from the Heartlands. It has been suggested before. If you don't disagree with the plunder of Boldhome not being part of the secret of the wealth of Moirades, ignore the statement. Like you ignored the ILH1 reference. Apparently it added your displeasure. Not the result I wanted, but the one I got. Terasarin's death is the magical achievement of Moirades, a triumph of Lunar magic made in Tarsh, when you compare the Fazzur background in Wyrm's Footnotes with the circumstances of Terasarin's death. So this isn't relevant? Nochet outgrew its status as a large city to a metropolis in a time frame comparable to the combined reigns of Phargentes and Moirades. Given that Phargentes effectively re-founded the place after his victory over Palashee, erasing whatever the previous settlement had, Furthest had a spurt of growth that hasn't quite reached metropolis size by the onset of the Hero Wars. It is possible that Moirades departure in 1610 stopped that growth, but metrololis size is just around the corner. I shouldn't have to spell this out, but need to do so anyway in the interest of quelling your outrage. On the matter of universities, I see a distinct possibility for Furthest having a University of the Provinces and Mirin's Cross having a Provincial University. Lhankor Mhy Great Libraries (functionally the same if not in name) are spaced with less distance than that, and places with strong local governments tend to have lots of universities. like the Holy Roman Empire and its successor states in Germany. And for universities claiming similar names, the US institution of their Cambridge is better known as Harvard, I suppose to avoid being mixed up with the more venerable place of learning on the Cam.

Tarsh was rich and expanding already before the conquest of Sartar, which would have seriously weakened the access to slaves from Prax or the southern Orlanthi, except through trade through Sartar. and only a side mention for one in Mirin's Cross. If you were Moirades, King of Tarsh, and regretfully not heir to his father's office of Provincial Overseer, where would you put your money to found a university? One where you have the say who gets privileged access? In your new model Lunar royal city, or in a seat of an administration that undermines your dynastic claims? Just asking. Which may be a different institution than the University of the Provinces mentioned in CHDP, or which may be an institution distributed over several places. Fazzur's middle brother cooperated with Moirades in the spell that killed Terasarin according to his article in Wyrm's Footnotes (or was it Tales, or did Tales reprint it?). Doing so out of Furthest is already a great magical feat. Doing so out of Mirin's Cross would obviate the presence of Imperial College magicians in the Lunar army. It is possible that Moirades' battlefield magics were more akin to the personal magic of the Red Emperor (though probably not quite as powerful) rather than regimental magics of the Imperial college, but I remain to be convinced that Furthest was not the source of this magic research and execution. I agree that Mirin's Cross is the center for the other Provincial kingdoms (Aggar, Holay, Talastar, Imther, Jarst, Garsting) and lesser territories (Elkoi, Tork), but I doubt that it has that much influence over Lunar Tarsh. None of those provincial kingdoms have direct dynastic ties to the Goddess or Moonson, only Sylila (which has become a Heartland adjunct, and keeps meddling in and through Mirin's Cross). The Guide doesn't quite agree with this. p.339: If Moirades beggared his kingdom while still building up a modern Lunar city in Furthest, the rest of the Provincial kingdoms must be way worse off. Checking out the entries on Mirin's Cross, I find the connection between Urar Baar (a troll stronghold at the Dawn) and the Berennethtelli founders surprising, to say the least. Berenstead lies considerably further west. Also, isn't Jillaro a contender for the former position of Nivorah? Mirin's Cross would correspond to Elempur in Anaxial's Heptapolis.

I relied on the Wikia entry which says "presumably in Tarsh". I just spent two hours trying to hunt down the connection between Moirades and the "stray moonbeam" which (together with a hungry or enraged dinosaur) spelled the end for Terasarin, so far without success. Furthest is a still growing Large City, on the upper end, and about as big as Nochet was when Sarotar died. You will most probably disdain any mention of the Imperial Lunar Handbook, but p.55 does have this information. And as far as I am concerned, there is no need or reason for newer information contradicting this paragraph. The sources speak of Heartland immigrants. Your conjecture above (and that is all it is) probably can have contributed to the rapid growth of Tarsh. On the other hand, we know that both the Orindori and the Lunar dynasty of Tarsh possess significant holdings in Sylila which contributed to their wealth, which is hard when those holdings are routinely famished, so I take the mention of the hungry Heartland to mean the Dara Happan portion of it, and not some impoverishing Provincial kingdoms nearby. Also note that Tarsh continued to grow richer after the demise of Phargentes and the loss of the office of Provincial Overseer. Either there was a successful pyramid scheme in place, or the wealth did not come from the other Provinces but from the Heartland. If the wealth came from the Heartland, I agree with Martin Helsdon that agricultural regions are less likely to be hit, which makes overpopulated cities the most likely assumption. I could look it up in the digest archives, but to what avail? I provided the verbatim quote in an earlier post, but did omit the page number. But with a searchable pdf, naming the source along with a verbatim quote should be sufficient for anything but a scientific publication. ILH 1 p.55 spells it out. The statement has been around for longer, been repeatedly confirmed in face-to-face or private email discussions with people with access to the canon. There is of course one statement in the Vault of out of print publications which supports your provincial pyramid scheme. You wrote it: (Introduction to the Hero Wars p.129) But even there you mention a significant surplus wealth that Tarsh can spend to buy up land. And in the light of this paragraph, I find the placement of a university founded by Moirades outside of Tarsh rather doubtful. Good point. Still, even without the office of the Provincial Overseer, Tarsh keeps having excess wealth to spend on dozens of ambitious projects. And while northwestern Tarsh does have a mining community, there is no indication that Tarsh gains that much wealth from metal exports. Inheriting the control over the trade routes to the Holy Country from Sartar for selected luxuries is another possible source of wealth, but the Princes of Sartar who controlled more than half of that trade before it entered Tarsh did not have such extravagant spending beyond the building projects of the dynasty, and those are easily matched by the build-up of Furthest as a new model Lunar city. There is no point in bringing up "Tarsh in Flames" with you in this debate, so I won't check that out and rather go directly to bed, not taking in 400 lunars.

Moirades spent immense riches on becoming King of Dragon Pass, on making Furthest a nascent Lunar metropolis, and on instituting a college of magic able to compete with the Imperial College on the research of new Lunar magics (under his personal supervision). All of that cannot have come from a single event of disaster relief, and however wealthy the princes of Sartar may have been, the plunder of Boldhome (that had to be shared with the Imperial forces present) cannot have been sufficient for all of that, either. (Besides, a lot of Moirades' investments occurred way before the Fall of Boldhome.) So there must have been ways of getting rich fast and solidly, and agricultural exports as per the description in Griffin Mountain is a solid way to get there. Forget the CHDP details. Phargentes recouped Tarsh from rebel rulership, and unless he put up dubious subsidies without the Tax Demon complaining, the land of Tarsh must have been really productive to provide Moirades with the money for all of his projects. (That, or a Lunar version of Patreon.)

Nobody trades in bulk just for profit, if there isn't a regular demand. No farmer produces food just to let it spoil (beyond the amount which is inevitable). If you have sufficient over-production of rice to provide for your populace and put a bit away for emergencies, you don't pay for inferior import maize. But pay Dara Happa did, and paid well, too. Once you start relying on grain imports, you take them as a given, and expand to the maximum that new resource can offer. Since 1555, Tarsh grain has bolstered the food supply in the Heartland cities, and the Heartland cities have adapted to that fact. Basically, the Dara Happan cities have a sizable non-productive underclass regularly following Lunar-inspired populists, doing rallies, street meditations and what not, and like in Woodstock, food comes in weird ways and from sources nobody looks at - and the maize from Tarsh with its Lunar origin sounds like the ideal propaganda free lunch for those mobs. The established Dara Happan society probably is well cared for by their traditional rice farming, but the unstable elements of Lunar society may be dependent on this.

The reason is probably that this is the place for discussing the setting for Glorantha, but only a place to discuss the Cthulhu Mythos. And some people just throw out more posts than others, but still will only buy one or two copies.

Star gods of the highest level often only have one (often male) parent.

Few modern Gloranthans have a clear idea about what happened an age ago, let alone two ages ago. What Arkat and his contemporaries did is mostly forgotten even by those who worship Arkat in the Modern Age. Harmast's efforts are best known from alliterative verse or poetic lists. Lokamayadon's methods are forgotten (much to the chagrin of the Lunars, assuming they remember that barbarian companion of Nysalor and Palangio at all). Unlike the Godtime, historical events usually cannot be visited in heroquests, although timeless events when gods walk the earth might be an exception. If so, there don't seem to be widespread quests to get to say the battle of Night and Day, although the uz efforts to undo D'Wargon's damage may have led them there. Godtime events may be better known even though only experienced through individual context of the questers.

Yes. Unless you have a rules lawyer in your game, few people will notice any inconsistencies. Dorastor has two kinds of monster stats - within player range, and insanely beyond of player capabilities without extreme magical preparation. The Riskland campaign should be playable with mid range experience characters, and rune level characters might actually be a little under-challenged. The encounters and horrors of Dorastor alternate between somewhat survivable and "run as if hell was on your heels, because it is". Quite a bit of the background information from the Dorastor book was included in the Guide appendices, but overall that book is one of the solid high quality products of the RuneQuest (3) Renaissance. There was sort of a companion volume, "Lords of Terror" which was mostly a reprint and partially a re-interpretation of Cults of Terror. If you have access to the Cults Compendium, those RQ3 changes won't matter. Do read the saga of Paulis Longvale to get a feel for the Hero Wars events in and around Dorastor.

All of these (and basically most of the SAN loss in the games I have played) might as well come from PTSD, which wasn't exactly a diagnosis back in the 1920ies although well known from the trench warfare of WW1. In my Cthulhu games (as a player) I had only one character ever completely losing it upon direct confrontation with a Great Old One, and it was fun to keep playing him as an agent of Nyarlathotep without the rest of the party aware of that changeover.

True. Griffin Mountain on the other hand expicitely states: This has been an established fact since the lofty days of RQ2, and I see no reason to assume differently just because the Guide uses its limited space for Furthest and Tarsh for different topics. I was pretty sure that I had included this fact in my old encyclopedia entry for Furthest. I really need to get my database-fu up to current systems to get access to some of my older versions of that data, and then add the current canonical sources. But boy are we straying in our efforts to be more right(eous) than the other.

As somebody living in the area, I can authoritatively say that the Elbe flows into the sea south of Jutland - the estuary goes almost directly east from Hamburg. The south shore of the Baltic Sea is about 60 km further north (and significantly further east), apart from the Lübecker Bucht, and conventionally the peninsula starts north of the Eider. The core Saxon lands like Westfalia are two hours of German Autobahn further south. There was indication of warfare in Anglia since the second century, and a 90%+ depopulation by the middle of the fourth century, a full hundred years before the British kingdoms were begun. The Angles on the other hand lived significantly north of the Eider, around the Flensburger Förde. And somehow there was enough identification with the homeland they had already abandoned for about a century that parts of Britain still are called Anglia. The proto-urban centers in the region probably never exceeded 1000 people, but one or two almost reached that number before the exodus. Modern Anglia is extremely decentralized settled, and up to the first century AD the same seems to have been true for Anglia, according to Professor Gebuehr. An ongoing time of conflict led to significant concentration of settlements (traceable through their cemetaries) by the start of the third century. Yes and no. The Galatan recipients of the Paulus letter manage to display some streaks that go well with the La Tene culture they came from. And Hengist and Horsa... To make this sort of relevant at least to Glorantha, the pastoral hillfolk tribes of southern Peloria that made incursions well into the rice area in the Storm Age mostly disappeared, too. There are no traces of Ram People (other than Yanafal's helmet) or Andam People left, and only the Bisosae have left a lasting impression in Pelanda. Which brings us to Daxdarius vs. the Andam Horde, and the question whether the inventor of the Phalanx faced a similar determined opposition as Marius against the Teutons at Aquae Sextiae, with the collective suicide of the widows after killing their children, rather than facing slavery. Vandals and Visigoths vanished through self-inflicted assimilation with the Roman culture they had conquered. Langobards and Franks retained some of their Germanic identity (enough so that the eastern Franks became the basis for modern Germany). And the most recent invaders, the Normans, had gone native in the Frankish culture within two generations, giving up their language and creed (but retaining their warrior spirit). Other migratory groups had yielded their separate identities when joining e.g. the Visigoth trek. Maybe leaving some small idiosyncrasies or local customs, possibly some founding deities/ancestors surviving as medieval local saints. The Bison overlords of Kostaddi are the Gloranthan equivalent of this. Apart from keeping a few bison as herds, their Praxian ancestry is completely forgotten, and when the Heortlings invaded Dara Happa in the Gbaji Wars, the Kostaddi bison families were fighting (and losing) as Dara Happans, after little more than two centuries. Without the Hungry Plateau as a reservate, the Sable families would have lost their ties to Waha's way completely, too. The horse nomads had shown more cultural identity in their centuries of overlordship. And for the protocol, sedentary central European peoples with urban centers worth conquering by the Romans disappeared without many traces, too. The only place in continental Europe that retained some Celtic language was Brittany, resettled by Romano-British refugees from the Saxon invasion. The Dacians were forgotten within a century of their elimination by Trajan. You are right, but there is no Fantasy Earth forum here, and the Mythras Mythic Saxons supplement only deals with England. On another related topic, how bloody were the purges of residual presence of former occupators? The Yelmalio in Nochet thread deals with the garrisons left behind by Palangio. Did any of those cut off by Arkat's rapid advance past Kaxtorplose find shelter in Arstola Forest, or were they and their families killed or enslaved by the Manirian Orlanthi?

Corroborated in the description of Furthest, so I am comfortable to take the steady stream of maize-laden barges down the Oslir as a fact of Imperial economy. And even if it is just Tarsh undercutting the price of locally grown food, the sudden absence of this staple will cause a crisis. Brennus in all likelihood isn't a name, but a title. The Cisalpine gauls were newcomers and still in warfare about territory bordering on the Etruscans. The raid on Rome resulted from this establishment. Angles south of the Elbe river and no longer next to the Danes is a bloody migration, comparable to the distance the Resettlers of Dragon Pass did. Saxons aren't news, I agree. So, what made the Cimbri and Teutones (neighbors or tribe mates of the Angles) pack up and journey all the way to the Alps? What factors brought on the Helvetii migration, or that of the Suebes (another tribe from the Baltic Sea, which at this time bore their name)? Those migrations were reported by Caesar, and while De Bello Gallico is a work of propaganda and contains gems like the sleeping habits of elk (aka moose), its overall content is more trustworthy than Fox News. A lot of migrations had an "invitation" somewhere. I wonder how often the inviting party learned of that when the invitees arrived. Or the invitees kin of kin.

Yes. Still, King of Sartar states that the Lunar Empire had turned to relying on the Tarsh grain barges for sustenance. To me this indicates a higher degree of urbanisation, possibly tied in with the founding and growth of Glamour and the loss of some of the best dry farming lands to the Crater. The Heartlands are among the densest populated parts of Glorantha. Even assuming urban farmers (as is somewhat explicitely stated for the metropolis of Alkoth), the urban population not engaged in primary production may have outgrown the capacity of the nearby lands. The Brennus who raided Rome was the leader who had successfully settled the Cisalpine Gauls on the border of the Etruscans, claiming some of their land. I wasn't aware that there was another "king" (which is basically the meaning of Brennus) who failed in Greece. And another migration through northern Greece succeeded in establishing the Galatans n Anatolia, so that may only have been a local side affair. Honestly, I am less concerned with the British side of events than I am with the Anglian side, given that I live and work in the region. There is archaeological evidence for purely "Saxon" settlements on the islands, with burial sites the same as ones in lower Saxony, which in turn inherit from burial sites in largely abandoned Anglia half a century older. Details like children's grave goods (and do you think that acculturation was fast enough that within half a century would suffice to change what mothers place with lost children?). I don't have any information on genetic studies, though, and given that many of these digs happened more than 50 years ago, genetic information may be compromised. Interesting that the Danes are so easily distinguishable from the Angles, given that they lived next to one another for generations and probably exchanged wives or sired children on mutual visits, whether peacefully in or near the Ale Hall or forced during raids. My information may be outdated, but I had the impression that the Belgae who were encountered by Caesar had been less than two centuries in the country, too, possibly immigrating from the North Sea lowlands. If that is true, there wouldn't have been much genetic distinction between Saxons and Belgae. The Saxons were after all a conglomerate tribe with part of their homelands in the third part of Gallia named Belgia in De Bello Gallico, appearing about two centuries after Caesar's visit. I have read sources that place the Cheruskans and neighboring tribes halfway in the Celtic culture and language rather than in the Germanic group, If that is true, the Saxons may have been less Germanic than the chauvinistic historians from over a century ago may have established.

To be fair, it is the Black Dragon, the one tied to Darkness (Red: Fire, Green: Earth, Brown: Storm). The Blue Dragon Aroka had been transformed into the Oslir River, and later Engizi brought Lorian's water down. Sure. His report gives about as much a full picture of the region as do the Persian and Cordoban reports on Hedeby. But unlike the rest of History of the Heortling Peoples, this report gives a description of the land, its settlement patterns, and the claim of Hendriki rule. I am far from clear whether the Tax Slaughter ended the Kitori tribute for the Hendriki, or whether they chose to continue to maintain their loyalty to the Only Old One through at least a semblance of this tribute. The Foreigner Laws of Aventus fail to mention Kitori, but that may just mean that Aventus did not claim authority over the OOO's kin at any time, and neither did future Hendriki kings. In that case, having Kitori holy places in Hendrikiland may have been just the natural consequence of their allegiance to the Kingdom of Night. I wouldn't necessarily equate these holy places with population centers, though. Dekko Crevice is a gateway to the Underworld that plays a role in Hendriki religious life. Does it say that Derensev used Auld Wyrmish? I don't think so. "The same curious script as the Kerofinelans" probably means that Heremel was served Western transscripts of Nochet volumes rather than the original documents in the Lhankor Mhy scratches. There is still some lingering confusion due to the claims in earlier documents (Uz Lore in Troll Pak and the Glorantha Book in Genertela Box) that "God Learners" inflicted Auld Wyrmish on scholars in Nochet in 575, significantly before the Jrusteli movement was even conceived. But Vistikos Left-Eye came from Nochet before he went into the wilds to establish the Hunting and Waltzing Bands, so the Nochet library would have documents about Auld Wyrmish that summarize Vistikos' knowledge. I am more disturbed by his claim that the "Imprinting One" was central to the Great Library famed for its maintenance of oral tradition. Akez Loradak is also named the Obsidian Palace. Greg Stafford is not a geologist either. Myself, I am a chemist with part-time knowledge of geochemistry, and Obsidian is basically slightly impure silica glass, whereas basalt is the silica-poor form of eruptive rock, and those two never occur side by side in our world. Both Stewart Stanfield (of duxploitation fame/notoriety) and Andreas Pittelkow (well known to the regulars of Eternal Convention), who are professionals on this field, have confirmed this. If Gloranthan magma is anything similar to terrestrial magma, then obsidian won't come out of the same magma chamber as basalt. Felsic lava is well suited to produce the phallic original mountain that was truncated by Argan Argar, before "chaining" Veskarthan to produce another, though slimmer and hollow, phalic extrusion, the Obsidian Palace aka Akez Loradak. I do wonder now, though, whether "Lodril's/Vestkarthan's spear lying about" in the Footprint myth might have been the shorn-off top of the Shadow Plateau. That city is admittedly difficult to place. "The Sun sets early in Anjoralini" clearly indicates that it lies east of the plateau cliffside, and not north of it. "on the left side" refers to the eastern shore of the river, yet "half a mile from the plateau" indicates that the river must lick the base of the plateau at Anjoralini. From talking to Greg about the Creekstream River while overlooking the Rhine at Bacharach, a river width of merely half a mile would indicate a narrow passage of the river rather than its usual wide bank - a situation not unlike the Lorely promontory a little to the north of Bacharach. Further north, if the travelogue in King of Sartar is correct. Hmm. I could back slurring "Durev" to "Drev", and hence "Durevan" to "Dreven", but barring strange strong declinations that insert an extra syllable in a word, I don't see any way to go the other way and insert lots of sounds to get towards Derensev. I'm not a linguist, but I learn related languages among other ways by using observations of linguistic shifts to guess at unfamiliar words. Simplification of words is the usual direction, and to get more complexity, chained words are collapsed into a single word, from which complexity slowly gets eroded. (Like in Pendle Hill.) The initial "Der" also occurs in "Derik". There is a possibility of that Der coming from Dur, with the "-ev" being omitted when chaining the word with whatever "ensev" may stand for, but the seconde "-ev" will hardly be related to the front "Dur". (Unless this is something like Dur-fucking-ev... Sorry about the f-bomb, but that's the only case of random insertion between two syllables of a name that I am aware of.) Ho hum. I don't think that the term "caste" is really applicable to Orlanthi. High status usually is inherited only when the office goes to the same household. The Vingkotling lineages are a distinct exception from this rule. It is clear that the Durevings are the Orlanthi of the Downland Migration. The wedding of Durev and Orane basically is the Wedding of Orlanth and Ernalda, on the demigod level. Heortling Mythology places the Downland Migration in the Discovery Age, aka Late Golden age, after the chaining of Umath, but well before the third and fatal contest. As far as linear sequence, or even sequence on a section of a cycle, can be asserted for Godtime. Janerra Alone's dalliance with Orlanth is from the onset of the Flood Age. The On Jorri are one of the northernmost peoples in Saird exempted from being flooded. The On Jorri don't seem to be of Dureving descent. It isn't even clear whether they were storm worshippers, agriculturalists, and/or pastoralists. They may even have been an offshoot of the gazzam-herding river basin culture that we call Dara Happa, with inheritance being a pre-requisite for chiefhood. (The entire story is sort of reprised by Denesia, the ancestress of the Dara Happan Denesiod dynasty...) Somehow, Vingkot's maternal people's traditions may have intruded into a much different Orlanthi culture. But basically, the Durevings are the traditional and original Orlanthi (demigods and mortals). The Vingkotlings are a later distinction for those of them who accept the rule of Vingkot's offspring (are blessed with it, or are forced to bear it like the Kodigvari who seem to have included indigenes from Kethaela who possibly never migrated northward to get there). But other than Vingkot's direct offspring, I don't see much of a Vingkotling ethnicity. Over the generations, descent from Vingkot spread out in those tribes, but quite likely also outside of those tribes if Orlanthi exogamy was practiced. The Helerings are a migratory group of blue-skinned folk that (if we can trust Malkioni mentions and the God Learner maps) migrated out of the lower sky into the southwestern corner of Glorantha, got into conflict with the Malkioni and Waertagi, and ended up making landfall in Maniria, preparing for battle against the Vingkotlings. That sounds like the Reclaimed Lands, after the Flood receded. Their genetic heritage can apparently be triggered by being strong in the Water rune. They are a different ethnicity at first, but apparently there are intermarriages with Durevings/Vingkotlings or indigenous earth folk (who also contribute big time to Dureving ancestry - the entire theme of the male hero going out and finding a wife in distant lands can be read as marriages to the land goddesses, repeated over and over again, like with Heort, Arim, or Sartar). Are the Aramites and the Harandings Durevings? Quite likely, though not necessarily. The same goes for the original human Kitori (who I suspect to have been Esrolvuli who had fled to Akez Loradak following Norinel and Kimantor, though possibly an ethnic minority who had joined the Esrolvuli as the Darkness proceded). I don't share your enthusiasm to make Derensev a second Hrelar Amali. The Hendriki de-centralized their holy places, almost to a migratory pattern that could be followed by pastoralists and hunters (and the Larnsti) through the seasons. And the God Learners would have noticed other major temples there.