What's an assistant shaman to do??

[Szwagier]

Even in chargen, there's no space on the character sheet for the Spirit rune, which is as important for the shaman profession as it is for Daka Fal, the cult of which my character is an initiate.

1. Where would you put the spirit rune, if you would. And if you wouldn't, why not?

2. Corollary of q. 1. If not the spirit rune, where does the assistant shaman get his/her runic inspiration from when they want an augment?

Think that'll do for now. All suggestions of advice gratefully accepted.

[metcalph]

Daka Fal worshippers do not receive the spirit rune in RQG.  They use the man rune instead.

[Austin]

49 minutes ago, Szwagier said:

Even in chargen, there's no space on the character sheet for the Spirit rune, which is as important for the shaman profession as it is for Daka Fal, the cult of which my character is an initiate.

1. Where would you put the spirit rune, if you would. And if you wouldn't, why not?

2. Corollary of q. 1. If not the spirit rune, where does the assistant shaman get his/her runic inspiration from when they want an augment?

Think that'll do for now. All suggestions of advice gratefully accepted.

To elaborate a little on @metcalph's answer, IIRC the adventurer sheet doesn't have the Spirit Rune because the game attributes that Rune to only describing spirit entities; it's a Form Rune, and humans are basically physical, their Form described as somewhere between the Man and Beast Runes. I don't recall where that explanation is in the book, but I'd guess the Introduction chapter where it talks about the Runes? (Unless that bit's in the adventurers chapter...)

As he said, all Daka Fal cultists use the Man Rune for their Rune magic, augments, etc. Moon Rune can also be used to augment any Magic category skill, if you've got it (and rolls to overcome POW, IIRC Edit: Yep, that's permitted. Page 146). If you're dealing with a spirit of a specific elemental affinity I'd personally allow using an opposed element to augment skills against it (e.g. Fire/Sky against a shade).

In my game, after some complications I ended up giving an assistant shaman the Spirit Rune as part of the Man/Beast Form Runes, turning the duo=100 to a trio=100%. The caveat to this, I told the player, was that if Spirit ever became his dominant Rune, he would become a spirit and no longer be a mortal adventurer.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Crel

[Byll]

It's a bit weird. Why is it OK to be a plant form with the man form or a beast form with the man form but not a man form with the spirit form?

'All forms are formal but some forms are more formal than others.'

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Byll said:

It's a bit weird. Why is it OK to be a plant form with the man form or a beast form with the man form but not a man form with the spirit form?

'All forms are formal but some forms are more formal than others.'

Plants, Beasts, and Humans are all physical, Middle-World things.  Spirits are not.

[Qizilbashwoman]

Wait, but shamans have the Man rune because they are masters of it, not because they are using their own form rune! This is hurting my brain.

2 hours ago, g33k said:

Plants, Beasts, and Humans are all physical, Middle-World things.  Spirits are not.

I'm about to ask a question that's might be a world of hurt:

Is Murharzarm part of the myth-cycle that the God Learners decided was Grandfather Mortal? I ask because that's the Spirit Rune.

Or was. Daka Fal was the first person to die, allegedly, but now shamans don't access his spirit rune anymore so

Edited August 10, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[Byll]

3 hours ago, g33k said:

Plants, Beasts, and Humans are all physical, Middle-World things.  Spirits are not.

In which case they don't belong in the same group as those 'proper' form runes; they are not the same form of form

[soltakss]

3 hours ago, g33k said:

4 hours ago, Byll said:

It's a bit weird. Why is it OK to be a plant form with the man form or a beast form with the man form but not a man form with the spirit form?

'All forms are formal but some forms are more formal than others.'

Plants, Beasts, and Humans are all physical, Middle-World things.  Spirits are not.

It's a rules construct.

If you want Shamans to use the Spirit Rune then add it to the Character Sheet and amend the PC accordingly.

[soltakss]

59 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Is Murharzarm part of the myth-cycle that the God Learners decided was Grandfather Mortal? I ask because that's the Spirit Rune.

Grandfather Mortal is not the Spirit Rune, he is the Man Rune.

A lot of Pelorian Mythology was not integrated by the God Leaners but was adapted by the Theyalans and Lifebringer Missionaries in the First Age. However, I am not particularly familiar with Murharzarm.

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Or was. Daka Fal was the first person to die, allegedly, but now shamans don't access his spirit rune anymore so

Daka Fal is the Judge of the Dead, who split the Spirits of the Dead from the Spirits of the Living. He has the Spirit Rune as that is what he did. In my Glorantha, it was Larnste, but I am often wrong.

Shamans are associated with the Horned Man, as a general idea, but are more likely to be associated with various Traditions. So, Ancestor Worshippers are associated with the Man Rune, Water Shamans with the Water Rune and so on.

[Videopete]

Honestly just swap out the beast rune for shamans this will help make them alien compared to the rest of the village, which is what they are.  The core book has some gaps as far as rules and the runes we see right now is only the beginning, i have a feeling that as the game grows we will get more runes and how to add or swap runes in the characters soul.  Also we dont have rules for enlightenment/illumination wich im thinking will remove the one rune runs counter to another ie death and life, movement and stasis so on and so forth.

[Szwagier]

On 8/11/2019 at 12:13 AM, Videopete said:

Honestly just swap out the beast rune for shamans this will help make them alien compared to the rest of the village, which is what they are.  The core book has some gaps as far as rules and the runes we see right now is only the beginning, i have a feeling that as the game grows we will get more runes and how to add or swap runes in the characters soul.  Also we dont have rules for enlightenment/illumination wich im thinking will remove the one rune runs counter to another ie death and life, movement and stasis so on and so forth.

We decided not to swap out beast for spirit because that would set up an opposition between man and spirit which would lead to strange game situations where one was pitted against the other.

The spirit rune is associated with Daka Fal, though, as can be seen on p. 47 and 291 of RQG, so there really ought to be some game mechanic for it, no?

Thanks for the suggestions on how to use it, I'm pretty sure we can come up with a house rule that covers it. 👍

[Qizilbashwoman]

42 minutes ago, Szwagier said:

The spirit rune is associated with Daka Fal, though, as can be seen on p. 47 and 291 of RQG, so there really ought to be some game mechanic for it, no?

Yeah the whole sitch is confusing, like, isn't the point that you have power over the Spirit rune and therefore can manipulate it?

[g33k]

Here's a wild thought, just pulled it randomly out of my... um... my hat, yeah, that's totally where I got the idea.

Man Rune = Spirit Rune, depending on whether you're This-World'ing or Otherworld'ing.

Haven't playtested it, haven't even thought about it much, just tossing it out there like a monkey throwing... Uh, his hat.  Yeah.  Hat monkey, that's me.

Make of the idea what you will.

[Bill the barbarian]

7 hours ago, g33k said:

Uh, his hat.  Yeah.  Hat monkey, that's me.

Make of the idea what you will.

Why then... Mayhap's, I will make of that idea... a hat... or maybe a bowtie... a Pterodactyl, p'raps?
and quit calling me Shirley, already!

[Jeff]

15 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Yeah the whole sitch is confusing, like, isn't the point that you have power over the Spirit rune and therefore can manipulate it?

Your Fetch is pure Spirit. You are Man (or Beast) as you are a mortal, physical entity that either lives in society (Man) or lives with nature (Beast). We concluded there is little actual game value to having a Spirit Rune in conflict with anything else. So if you want to put the Spirit Rune on your character sheet, draw it on. There are plenty of Runes that aren't an important part of a mortal character (unless you are an elf - then swap out Beast with Plant).

[Qizilbashwoman]

5 hours ago, Jeff said:

There are plenty of Runes that aren't an important part of a mortal character (unless you are an elf - then swap out Beast with Plant).

Please answer, O mighty lords of Heaven, even if you were to speculate:

Would Hsunchen use Beast or Person?

And what Rune would the Gold Wheel Dancers have had? (A girl can try?)

[Jeff]

A Hsunchen uses Beast to do their magic. They are beasts after all. If the Hsunchen becomes too much Man, they cease to be able to be Hsunchen.

You planning on playing a Gold Wheel Dancer?

[Qizilbashwoman]

15 minutes ago, Jeff said:

A Hsunchen uses Beast to do their magic. They are beasts after all. If the Hsunchen becomes too much Man, they cease to be able to be Hsunchen.

I'm trying to figure out how a Hsunchen functions if they have no Person rune, I guess. This whole Rune shift thing with Spirit is throwing me around, I'm on unstable ground about how things are working with identity rune. You lose your Beast and you go full "Hsunchen by name only", yes. Part of this is I'm coming from HeroQuest and runes are different.

23 minutes ago, Jeff said:

You planning on playing a Gold Wheel Dancer?

I'm not, I'm interested because who isn't interested in Gold Wheel Dancers? Narcs, that's who. Narcs and broos. Also, they were around as recently as After Time, so it's not like you might not meet one in a heroquest. People in heroquests, they act like they are alive and real, even if ten thousand people from the Lunar Empire really aren't visiting the same person at the same time in the same temple in ancient history and sticking out like a sore thumb. (I'm not sure we really know what happens with heroquesting, do we, when it comes to things like the Entekosiad's stories of interactions with normal, everyday, presumably historical people.)

I'm sort of interested if you'd give an answer about what kind of Runes a GWD would have. I have an opinion but I don't want to give it because I'm not asking for confirmation, I'm asking what you want, can, or actually know. (You might know nothing because it was abandonware or want to say nothing because it's old.)

[Jeff]

18 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I'm trying to figure out how a Hsunchen functions if they have no Person rune, I guess. This whole Rune shift thing with Spirit is throwing me around, I'm on unstable ground about how things are working with identity rune. You lose your Beast and you go full "Hsunchen by name only", yes. Part of this is I'm coming from HeroQuest and runes are different.

I'm not, I'm interested because who isn't interested in Gold Wheel Dancers? Narcs, that's who. Narcs and broos. Also, they were around as recently as After Time, so it's not like you might not meet one in a heroquest. People in heroquests, they act like they are alive and real, even if ten thousand people from the Lunar Empire really aren't visiting the same person at the same time in the same temple in ancient history and sticking out like a sore thumb. (I'm not sure we really know what happens with heroquesting, do we, when it comes to things like the Entekosiad's stories of interactions with normal, everyday, presumably historical people.)

I'm sort of interested if you'd give an answer about what kind of Runes a GWD would have. I have an opinion but I don't want to give it because I'm not asking for confirmation, I'm asking what you want, can, or actually know. (You might know nothing because it was abandonware or want to say nothing because it's old.)

Hsunchen start with BOTH the Beast and Man runes. They are in opposition. Hsunchen magicians try to get their Beast Rune as high as possible - to be the wolf, the bear, the deer, whatever. This is the same as Humakti trying to get their Death and Truth runes as high as possible - but they still have some tie to Life and Illusion. So Bödvar Bjarki has Beast of 85% and Man of 15%. He's STRONGLY Beast Rune and can't really act against that Rune without consequences. But he still has Man at 15% and can enter human society (but generally doesn't like it). His brothers Elk-Froði and Þorir Houndsfoot are more extreme, with Beast of 95% and Man of only 5%. They live in the wilderness like beasts, but even they are able to enter human society when it is time to avenge their brother.

[scott-martin]

31 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Narcs, that's who. Narcs and broos.

The esteemed Jajagappa is familiar with Gold Wheel Dancer psychology so may weigh in.

Etymologically I suspect they'd have Fire and Harmony, possibly as the origin of Harana Ilor's musical iconography. Speaking Wheel at least was strong enough in Harmony to fill that seat in the Council.

It's interesting to think about these vanished races having rune oppositions that don't really apply in modern Glorantha.

[Qizilbashwoman]

26 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

The esteemed Jajagappa is familiar with Gold Wheel Dancer psychology so may weigh in.

Etymologically I suspect they'd have Fire and Harmony, possibly as the origin of Harana Ilor's musical iconography. Speaking Wheel at least was strong enough in Harmony to fill that seat in the Council.

It's interesting to think about these vanished races having rune oppositions that don't really apply in modern Glorantha.

Fire was what I suspect, as I always thought they were like merfolk somehow - Forgotten Secrets of Glorantha says, "Greg had a race for each of the elements at one time, in the very early part of Glorantha. So the race for the Heat element, for Fire, was the Tamali. And then he realized that he had Hot Tamales, so they went away." Maybe the Tamalis went away, but the idea didn't quite.

I see so little evidence of them before Time, though. Only the other elder races.

Oh, right: paging @jajagappa

[scott-martin]

12 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

So the race for the Heat element, for Fire, was the Tamali.

I love that stuff too. The funny thing here is that Tamali were originally the darkness people before Sandy's beloved trolls emerged. The archaic fire people were the Promalti. 

This is probably too far inside baseball for the RuneQuest forum to care about but if I were doing GWD I'd make them another Decapolis diaspora culture like the horse people, star clans and so on. Were they human then? Maybe sometimes, like kitori. Would they be human now? Hard to say.

[Qizilbashwoman]

30 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

This is probably too far inside baseball for the RuneQuest forum to care about but if I were doing GWD I'd make them another Decapolis diaspora culture like the horse people, star clans and so on. Were they human then? Maybe sometimes, like kitori.

Like, they started as human and went full Sky/Fire rune (man when are we gonna get a rune font on this site, good lord). Descriptions of kitori vary but it's clear they at minimum could appear in a form not unlike the Tuskers, something like a hybrid. If the Lux are the Sky people we got maybe the GWD went in a different direction, but that's also why they could interbreed with humans and the like. Golden Fintelan was the son of a GWD mother and a human-mostali-dryad father who was the ruler of the Dorastorings.

Too bad he didn't have kids with an uz, the Unity Council might have avoided the whole Gbaji problem.

[scott-martin]

Just now, Qizilbashwoman said:

Too bad he didn't have kids with an uz, the Unity Council might have avoided the whole Gbaji problem.

Too far inside baseball here but this does indeed seem to be Why The Council Broke. Their partner in Raibanth "suggested" that the new god be raised with at least a Light orientation, the Dorastans went with it and here we are now. 

But the character sheet was different then. Fun to contemplate Dawn Age RuneQuest now with the tools we have . . . 

[Qizilbashwoman]

11 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Their partner in Raibanth "suggested" that the new god be raised with at least a Light orientation

always the Dara Happans ennit