HeroQuest Glorantha starting setting

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, Eff said:

And, to be honest, the elementalism breaks down completely if you're in an spiritism-dominated culture or Malkioni country. It's kind of a shame that theism has such a dominant presence in Gloranthan discussion online- there's at least three other answers to any given question about the setting, and while Lunar ones are usually unhelpful... 

Elementalism was one of the discoveries by the God Learners, found in a rawer form in the Theyalan traditions. The GLs refined the principle and applied it successfully to invade other places' myths, including Teshnos, Kralorela and Pamaltela. Ironically, they never applied this much to the West.

Without the God Learner monomyth, Glorantha as an rpg-setting would be impossible to present. The Gloranthan Sourcebook is dense and abstract enough as such introductions go.

But I agree, we have been using Cults of Prax (of all places in the world!) as the definition and ground work of the setting of Glorantha. Gods and Goddesses of Glorantha (reprinted and expanded in the Sourcebook) gave a more "global" perspective, along the God Learner systematic that was referred in Cults of Prax. Nowadays we finally receive the Dragon Pass perspective.

I would love to see the Malkioni take on Glorantha in the revised (less Catholic Church) form that has been hinted at in the Guide, but unfortunately our two major sources on the Malkioni outside of the initial rewrites in the Guide are still following that "Church" model that led to the interesting, playable but non-canonical development of "The Glorious Book of Joy" and the draft of "Kingdom of the Flamesword" for HQ1 by Jamie Revell aka Ttrotsky, and to the at times fresh re-interpretations in the Mongoose Second Age line that regrettably failed to adhere even to that older canon of Revealed Mythologies, Middle Sea Empire, and the EWF stuff previously published e.g. in King of Sartar.

I wonder how the West could be tackled best. Something similar to the Gloranthan Sourcebook, presenting a summary of Greg's western myths and stories, and a rules-free explanation of their religion might be a way, taking in the summaries of Revealed Mythologies and Missing Lands (which made an excellent use of the "Seshnelan Kings List" by annotating it). And only then a RQG book and possibly a HQG book providing rpg rules for that part of the setting.

The East deserves a detail treatment of a similar order, too, but its mysticism is not that different from Lunar and Draconic developments, and was united by Sheng's experience. The Far East has two major playing fields with huge civilizations mapped out - Vormain, and the Andin Wars further east, both north of the immortal (and unavailable?) lands of Vithalash. Apparently the magic rules of RQG and HQG apply, but there are so many other cults and names that require explanations, and mysticism needs more attention, too.

Pamaltela has at least four different human stories to tell - Umathela's conflict with Slon, Fonrit's resurgence of the Artmali, the Doraddi (and Kresht) epic against the Nargan, and whatever happens to the Thinobutan descendants along the northern coasts. Fonrit and Umathela might be told with the tools at hand, although a more systematic exploration of Gloranthan sorcery would be appreaciated.

[Joerg]

11 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Love it. Insight coming out of Ralios is coming one way or another. Can't say I've ever seen the mechanics of Reaching Storm ever really worked out. I suspect the revelation of multiple Holy Mountains is part of it (at least, that's where I'd start) . . . when it's just another magical commodity they can be built like franchise stores.

Good point, I never considered the mountains, but only Argrath's mystical counter to the Glowline.

11 hours ago, scott-martin said:

For that matter can't say I'm clear on what Reaching Storm actually does for allied magic. That sounds like High Storm has a role there.

It might just counter enemy mystical powers, be they Red Moon or Zolathy-powered. The enemy at the time was Sheng, and summoning Yara Aranis to fight Sheng sounds like what Argrath would do after he had already summoned Sheng to fight the Red Emperor (Phargentes II).

 

8 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I think @Jeff mentioned that there wasn't actually ever a Blue Age, just a Black Age... or, wait! Did I get it switched around? That there was a Blue Age but never a Black Age

Neither had mortals to remember them - it is possible that there were some niiads who used to swim on the top side of the Earth Cube, but that's the closest thing to a mortal being that there was this far down Creation. Not even dragonewts yet. Likely no man rune yet, either. Both would come in the Green Age.

This basically means that there is an extremely low likelihood for there being myths to experience those stages of Creation. Heler might have some for his most devoted mystics, and Daliath's Well of Wisdom might hold the knowledge.

 

Vendref:

8 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Unless there are elements of chattel sales, then I'd go for them being an ethnic serf class.

Yes, my interpretation, too.

Prior to the intervention of the FHQ, their lot may have been a lot sorrier, with the danger of being picked for chattel service or sport at a whim. But even so, the Vendref appear to have slipped into a role similar to that of the Oasis Folk the Pure Horse Tribe had in that position during their heydays in western and northern Prax.

 

8 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I remember the discussion on whether Yelmalios could use knives because it's a "Storm type of weapon". To me, that's an example of when the elementalism just becomes an annoying obstacle that people are taking way too literally and mechanistic, rather than using it to create interesting narratives. 

To be fair, the Over The Top RQ cults of Humakt and Yelmalio came up with restrictions like "only use cult weapons" geases, and Humakt enumerates knives as such, whereas the Yelmalio cult only mentions spears and bows.

 

Speaking of swords and symbolism: Are there any Bronze Age swords that have a crossbar like the Death Rune has?

True, the Unbreakable Sword was an iron sword, but even Iron Age swords didn't usually have crossbars for quite a while.

 

The Only Old One as King of Dragon Pass

6 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

and to be fair to Him, He was literally a demigod already running a state, what, 1500 years before the first FHQ, and he did marry a different Earth goddess symbolising the authority of Dragon Pass as soon as it was possible to do so

IMO the Kingdom of Night's authority over Orlanthland was never one of sovereignty over the land - the only human place where the Kingdom had made such a move was Esrolia (or rather Nochet).

At the Dawn, there was no King of Dragon Pass, but Aram ya Udram was the next best thing as holder of Kero Fin's Necklace, and human representant at the Unity Council. That was the time when the OOO held the most influence over Orlanthland. The Bright Empire changed that, but as far as I know Palangio never became King of Dragon Pass, being happy to be governor supreme. After the Gbaji Wars, the Arkati and Kitori upheld the tributes to the Kingdom of Night, but Orlanthi inability to hold Dara Happa to compensate for those tribubtes led to crisis and the Tax Slaughter, which ended the influence of the OOO pretty much at the Crossline. The Hendriki chose the OOO over the EWF or the Slontans, and the Esrolians remained as true to him as they could under both EWF and Slontan occupations. Dragon Pass was its own territory, and the Ring of Orlanthland didn't approve of any supreme kings. Neither did theThird Council of the EWF that this institution morphed into.

Alakoring's agenda somehow made it through the EWF heartlands to the Hendriki and led to the Adjustment Wars, which ended in first the Dragonkill and then a Sword-and-Helm reprise disaster. Then came Belintar and kick-started the re-population of Dragon Pass from the south, and Hwarin Dalthippa sending Arim to do so from the north. Ironhoof's domain ended with that. The treaty with Belintar at Centaur's Cross might have been the terminal date for the rules of his kingship, opening up Arim's way to Sorana Tor

[scott-martin]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

It might just counter enemy mystical powers, be they Red Moon or Zolathy-powered. The enemy at the time was Sheng, and summoning Yara Aranis to fight Sheng sounds like what Argrath would do after he had already summoned Sheng to fight the Red Emperor (Phargentes II).

You raise a great point by grounding the original Reaching function in the nomad-destroying Aranis cult. Applications better suited to the southern frontier (like keeping cyclical magic on Permanent Full) are interesting but secondary. All we really know about Reaching Storm is that it protects against ravaging nomads. I originally assumed that it's a network effect but by that point in the 1630s time is starting to fray around the edges anyway so details get scarce.

The identity of the "six-armed goddess of Saird" in this context remains interesting of course. However she interacts with Storm ideology I suspect she eats horse.

[None]

23 hours ago, Eff said:

Obviously, there's calm air, so perhaps the Storm element should "really" be the Air element or whatever. But a lot of Gloranthan definitions are built around these basic metaphors.

Looking at it that way ther could have been calm/still air before the Storm rune but then calm/still air wouldn't be affiliated with the Storm rune either. Either having no rune affinity or one of the other elemental runes.

23 hours ago, Eff said:

So I don't like the "elemental civilization" motif because I like Glorantha because of how anthropological it is.

Still they exist. Maybe not in the most heavy-handed way possoble (thankfully) but people, and by extention cultures and civilizations with a strong elemental afinity share traits with that rune, are influenced by goods with that rune and share similarities with each other.

 

19 hours ago, soltakss said:

Orlanth needs to fight Daga, Yelm just commands him.

That's interesting.

19 hours ago, soltakss said:

However, had he not tried to challenge Orlanth, he would have been a reasonable Storm God, a Sky Friend. In fact, I would expect some Lunars to try and access him as an equal to, or replacement for, Orlanth.

That's also interesting.

 

14 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I remember the discussion on whether Yelmalios could use knives because it's a "Storm type of weapon". To me, that's an example of when the elementalism just becomes an annoying obstacle that people are taking way too literally and mechanistic, rather than using it to create interesting narratives. 

 

14 hours ago, Eff said:

And, to be honest, the elementalism breaks down completely if you're in an spiritism-dominated culture or Malkioni country. It's kind of a shame that theism has such a dominant presence in Gloranthan discussion online- there's at least three other answers to any given question about the setting, and while Lunar ones are usually unhelpful... 

To that I have ro agree. I've always considered the elemental affiliation of weapons a bit double-edged even though I understand why they're there. As for Spiriut and Sorcery things, yeah I have a slight issue with that too. I think the main reason to that is that bot of those two branches seem like lesser extentions (even though I know that's not really the case) are because becasue they're each only connected to one rune while theism is (or looks like it is) basically all the other runes.

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

The concept of dry land, on a surface that used to be submerged and hence accessible to the sea for harvesting the magic/food

One thing her have' been bothering me for a while. I've heard elsewehere that the Sea and Water rune have a conection to life and food (i.e food production) even older and more powerful than the Earth rune So why are you constantly wording this as if it is Earth that gives food to the Sea?

Or do you mean that the Sea wit access to Earth canincreased its own food production and that is why it  whant the earth cube so much?

 

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

You write this weirdly from the Earth's perspective, when the ones having the beef is the Ocean.

Its because I've always been under the impression that the Earth want to add the Water runes life/food capacity toitself while the Ocean is upset that the earth cube pushed it away. Hence why Earth and Ernalda like rain so much.

Actually it would be interesting to create a people who found a way to make food with only Sky/Fire and Water, bypassing Earth entirely, and then see what happen. Although I guess that would really upset a lot of gods and bring about a new war. Assumingh said people aren't immediately squashed that is.

 

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Emperor touches everything in the world with the rays of the sun. Yelm is the poster boy culprit for the metoo movement. His light is capable of causing pregnancy, as proved by Hon-eel's quest by which she overcame the Most Reverend Mother of Horses (Sourcebook p.178).

That's interesting considering how prudish the Dara Happan's seem to be. I also thought that that personality trait you describe there was Lodrils modus operandi. Although with magma instead of light (and Orlanth too come to think of it, although neither of those two can make you pregnant just by looking at you, true).

That begs the question. Can Orlanth make you pregnant just by blowing at you?

 

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

[amusing dialogue snipped]

Thanks.

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Ernalda never was a topic of contest between Orlanth and Yelm. Recognition as King, and the case against the killer/chainer of Umath was.

I know,

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Looking at what has been told about Dara Happan court protocol (mostly by MOB), I very much doubt that any petitioner was allowed to raise his voice in the presence of the Emperor, instead a court official would take the complaint statement and present/translate it to the Emperor.

and I can't refute that but it doesn't change that the whole Ernalda thing is up in the air unless you choose to favour one of the two sides in the conflict, and honestly, I think that's good. The whole issue should be so infected between the Orlanthi and Dara Happans that it is iommpossible to tell anyomre what all the circumstances were.

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Tom Sawyer feat of getting a fence painted... Yelmic Justice works on this principle, too.

That doesn't surprise me. Yelmic society as I understand it is all about hierarchy, noble privilege, (extremely theoretical) nobles olblige, and duty toward your betters.Still, I'd appreciate it if you could explain Yelmic Justice in detail.

 

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

And the Gods War boardgame does provide an Earth Queen for the Chaos faction, too... in keeping with this mythology.

What? I have to admit, Chaos was the one faction I didn't expect that with. Please explain. Wouldn't that be like the Earth Queen commiting suicide conciddering Chaos want everything to to go back to before Darkness?

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Yes. But then compare the Wedding Contest for Yelm.

Oh, yes it is quite different. No argument there.

It is also done from a different (a Solar one I assume) perspective than a land/ Earth one so its not very surprising. That said, I will claim that the land/Earth perspective is the dominant one. (If you say that its because all of these examples, barring Yelm, take place in areas where Earth is the dominant force that's acceptable.)

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

You should add Saird, as per GRoY. Maniria and Prax/Genert's Garden are given as bonus in the Sourcebook, and the region might as well be called Tada's Realm.

I haven't had the time to read that entire book yet (I've mostly skimmed it and names and dates aren't my strong suit, characters I can remember easier) and don't know Saird yet so I cant say anything about it, same about Maniria. Prax is so desolate that I conected it more with Urox than Ernalda. She's also not the main goddes of the Praxians to my knowledge.

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Not the symbol - the thing itself. The land, and the sovereignty thereof.

Doesn't change the fact that I don't like her in that role outside Orlanthi and Esrolian territories.

But, yes. Everyone lives on the land (unless you live in the Ocean) I can see why that logically gives her an insane amount of leverage. That's the issue. I don't like it that any of the elements have such a leverage and advantage over the others.

 

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

We have the highly unsympathic entity Imarja for that, too.

I haven't heard of her before. Now I'm qurious, please do tell. The way you put it I have to assume she's one of the blood sacrifie to the earth types?

 

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Because everywhere is the Surface World. The Orlanth Storm is everywhere, too, as is Daylight or Night's shadow.

Yes but none of those matter as much as Earth and can, to my knowledge be fairly safely ignored unless you're involved with them in some way. If I'm I would very much like to learn how. Everyone is involved wit the  Earth weather they like it or not. (Yes, I admit that the sorcerers of the west should be able to work  around the whoe thing as should the Spirit rune.)

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

"The game" - which one are you referring to here?

I meant the setting itself. Glorantha and its lore.

Sorry, I should have been more clear.

 

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

I am certain that there is a mystical unity between Umath and Entekos.

Then there is Aerlit of Seshnela, a gentle wind among the wild gales of the Vadrudi, ancestor to the Malkioni. In a way, Malkion is the storm god you are missing.

Now I wish I knew more about Entekos. I think I know which book I'm going to buy next.

But Malkion, Isn't he the god of atheism and sorcery? Or was he the first wizard? Wasn't that Szazubur? (I forgot, and I haven't the slightest how to spell his name.)

No wait the Invisible God is the god of Sorcery.

 

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Doraddi civilization of Tishamto might satisfy your urge for a much less stratified solar-friendly society. Significantly, the sun wasn't in charge, though, and neither was fire (Balumbasta/Lodril), but Pamalt was, the Tada figure of the southern continent.

Teshnos has Calyz, possibly the friendliest male fire deity you may be able to find anywhere in Glorantha. The God Learners were pretty much unable to identify him with any other fire emanation known to them, unlike for Solf (Lodril/Lodik/Ladaral), Somash (Yelm/Ehilm) and Zitro Argon (Dayzatar/Zrethus). (Of the Pelorian entities, Turos comes closest to Calyz.)

Pelandan Idovanus is something like a "Great Yelm" with hints of the Invisible God. Powerless now, possibly since the ascension of Daxdarius and Natha to the Jernotian Celestial Court.

I think I've read about the Droaddi. (Aren't they the ones that always say "We've tried tha, it ddn't work"?)

The otherones, excluding the God Learners and the Invisible God are a complete blank.

Calyz ands Pelandan Idovanus in particular interest me.

 

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

You are aware that "supreme" invokes adjectives like "asshole", "trickster" or "hierarchical", and that it doesn't usually come in the plural?

Yes, I am. (Except 'trickster', I think your misplacing that one a bit.)

That doesn't meant diferent regions and culturs can't have their own supreme Storm (or whicheverelemnt you prefer) god who is equal in stregth to the surmreme storm gods in other regions without actually being the same god or having the same core nature or personality. All of them doesn't have to be Orlanth/Ernalda/Yelm/etc., or else weaker than Orlanth.

Its not like all civilizations who immagined a sun god imagined said god the same way withe same nature.

There is also no reason why one interpretation should be the 'correct' or 'stronger' one.

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Gods War gamed things out between numerous manifestations of these powers in different contexts. Then the Greater Darkness filtered out only those manifestations that had been strong enough prior to the Greater Darkness to be brought back from oblivion by Arachne Solara's Web.

Glorantha is a post-apocalyptic setting with recurring cataclysms. That means it can afford to be lacking in some forms of expression, it has a backstory to explain those.

Sounds like what I really should do is try running a campain before the Gods War one day. Now how would that turn out? I don't think there are much material to work with.

Still, it would give an experience very different from normal Glorantha.

 

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

If you don't want to ditch the entire concept of the Four Quarters of the World that collided in the Creation of Glorantha, then Ernalda may be the expression of the Earth in the northern quarter. The Jrusteli and possibly the Theyalans before them (including the Olodo) may have exported her to other parts (Seshnela, Teshnos, Kralorela, Jrustela, Umathela) that weren't originally parts of her quarter. Much of Pamaltela and the East may be unburdened by Ernalda. Everywhere else she appears to have been a success story since local forms were identified with her.

That's actually not a bad idea (by which I mneanI think it has merit and is interesting). AS I said, I like Ernalda as a character and as a majot or greater god. I don't even mind if her abition is to be the sole Surpreme Earth Goddes of all of Glotrantha. I just don't want her to be there, nor do I want The Earth way to the Ernalda way, so to speak.

 

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

You will be hard put to find any Orlanthi documents untainted by the Theyalan missionaries, and the Esrolian lore went into the Theyalan canon, too.

Just to be sure I'm not musunderstanding something by accident but who are/were the Theyalans? I've been conecting them to te Orlanthi.

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

or immunized by the arrogance of the Dara Happans

That's one way to put it. For some reason that amuses me.

[Joerg]

49 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

You raise a great point by grounding the original Reaching function in the nomad-destroying Aranis cult

And I botched up the timeline for the temples of the Reaching Storm, the first of these being raised already shortly after 1634 when Inkarne's mom spoke the words of the wedding vow for her infant daughter. (Where infant may mean anything from freshly born to eight years old?)

The threat to Saird of nomads from the north and the east indicates that the Empire has full scale Pentan troubles in these years, probably courtesy of Dranz Goloi. North of Saird lie Sylila (which is actually part of Saird) and Kostaddi, with Henjarl around Alkoth. East of Saird lies Zarkos - specifically Garsting, which had already been the home range of the Opili nation before and after the Battle of Quintus Vale.

[scott-martin]

[Just the highest notes.]

4 minutes ago, None said:

Its because I've always been under the impression that the Earth want to add the Water runes life/food capacity toitself while the Ocean is upset that the earth cube pushed it away. Hence why Earth and Ernalda like rain so much.

I would say that the Earth process revolves around concentration and encapsulation of food whereas in Water food simply circulated free and the journey from eater to eaten is the direction in which the world flows. Which sounds a little more obscure than it needs to be so break it down into smaller bites. As others have mentioned, Earth accretes as a local irritation in the infinite Ocean. It's a dense spot, not necessarily heavy (it floats) so much as concentrated. Experiences that are otherwise extremely diffuse in the water world precipitate out of solution. Different taxonomies of life ("new foods") become possible. 

But Earth carries its secret water within it. The concentration process preserves a kind of ghost of the original universal solvent, which is the encapsulation. This inner water remains thirsty. It obeys the great tide and ultimately seeks reunion with the universal. Sometimes this manifests as a desire to reincorporate fractions of the original solvent lost to us, especially when the world gets too dry and our inner water runs low. We pray for rain. Water is happy to oblige.

Flamal and all his children share in this. But sometimes it gets too wet and you risk root rot. It's important to know and obey the cycle of these things. Storm is a useful partner because it keeps the humidity and the heat moving. Some people might even say it's the flow of the dry world, the heart beating. Otherwise the dry stays dry and the wet stays wet, the body gets brittle like a mummy and the secret water left behind gets brackish. Disease conditions. 

21 minutes ago, None said:

Szazubur

This is really the part I wanted to comment on. I love this and am adopting it as head canon, a useful way to refer to him while also insulting him.

[Tindalos]

17 minutes ago, None said:

But Malkion, Isn't he the god of atheism and sorcery? Or was he the first wizard? Wasn't that Szazubur? (I forgot, and I haven't the slightest how to spell his name.)

No wait the Invisible God is the god of Sorcery.

 

Just to be sure I'm not musunderstanding something by accident but who are/were the Theyalans? I've been conecting them to te Orlanthi.

Malkion was the prophet of the Invisible God, father of Zzabur and the other ancient Malkioni peoples, and was himself a child of an air god and a sea goddess/mermaid.

Malkioni belief can cover a wide range of belief, including such positions as: "there are many gods, but we only worship the Invisible God," "the Invisible God created the others to be intermediaries for people to worship," "all gods are manifestations of the Invisible God," and "all the gods -- including the Invisible God -- are representations of impersonal forces and there's no point worshipping those, even if we can appreciate their role in the cosmos."

 

As for the Theyalans, it's another name used for the Orlanthi culture, favoured by the God Learners and still used by non-Orlanthi (Named after the goddess of the dawn as they were so important during that age.)

It can be useful to distinguish between Orlanthi as a culture and Orlanthi as in "people who are initiated to Orlanth." Although it can also refer to the dawn age missionary culture in particular, just to be difficult.

[None]

15 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

This is really the part I wanted to comment on. I love this and am adopting it as head canon, a useful way to refer to him while also insulting him.

I wish I understood, I assume I misspelled his name?

[moments later]

Oh I did.

 Also:

4 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

As for the Theyalans, it's another name used for the Orlanthi culture, favoured by the God Learners and still used by non-Orlanthi (Named after the goddess of the dawn as they were so important during that age.)

It can be useful to distinguish between Orlanthi as a culture and Orlanthi as in "people who are initiated to Orlanth." Although it can also refer to the dawn age missionary culture in particular, just to be difficult.

Thank you.

Edited November 23, 2019 by None

[scott-martin]

7 minutes ago, None said:

I wish I understood, I assume I misspelled his name?

Yeah, I have a healthy hatred and fear for the character . . . and since typography has power in his magic there's no point in giving him the dignity of the name he so painstakingly constructed for himself. But we still need to refer to him sometimes so until today I used euphemisms ("the blue man," blue meany) or the "printer's resentment" that lowercased Ceaușescu in the newspapers when the Romanians took their lives back ("zzabur"). But now he can be Szazubur, which is delightfully absurd. It will get on his delicate nerves. I cannot wait to talk more about him, my good friend Szazubur, so full of piszazz and the old rasz-a-ma-taszabur.

[None]

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

Yeah, I have a healthy hatred and fear for the character . . . and since typography has power in his magic there's no point in giving him the dignity of the name he so painstakingly constructed for himself. But we still need to refer to him sometimes so until today I used euphemisms ("the blue man," blue meany) or the "printer's resentment" that lowercased Ceaușescu in the newspapers when the Romanians took their lives back ("zzabur"). But now he can be Szazubur, which is delightfully absurd. It will get on his delicate nerves. I cannot wait to talk more about him, my good friend Szazubur, so full of piszazz and the old rasz-a-ma-taszabur.

You made me laugh. Now I'm amused.

Edited November 23, 2019 by None

[Eff]

10 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Yeah, I have a healthy hatred and fear for the character . . . and since typography has power in his magic there's no point in giving him the dignity of the name he so painstakingly constructed for himself. But we still need to refer to him sometimes so until today I used euphemisms ("the blue man," blue meany) or the "printer's resentment" that lowercased Ceaușescu in the newspapers when the Romanians took their lives back ("zzabur"). But now he can be Szazubur, which is delightfully absurd. It will get on his delicate nerves. I cannot wait to talk more about him, my good friend Szazubur, so full of piszazz and the old rasz-a-ma-taszabur.

Other good euphemisms for Z-guy:

Dronar's tick

Horal's burden

Talar's rash

The Wicked Hydrophobe Of The West 

[scott-martin]

4 minutes ago, Eff said:

The Wicked Hydrophobe Of The West 

Keep 'em coming people. Guy googles himself constantly, like the Am-nda P-lm-r of ancient times. A more porous ego is good for the soul.

ALL OF WHICH IS A WAY TO SAY, ON TOPIC that the best way to divorce lunar insight from imperial solar-phallic trash is to rediscover the Arrolian diaspora while you still can. Go west! The weather is great and the bookstores are great places to meet people. You'll thank yourself later.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, None said:

I wish I understood, I assume I misspelled his name?

 

There have been some brilliant malapropisms (wrong word, experts what is the misspelling versions of this?) like gregnant for pregnant.

And don’t get me started about that dam splchkn` demonic spawn of a degenerate godlearn’n'... So tell me how ya really feel, bill? <pant, pant, pant>...

[Joerg]

An unauthorised reload thanks to the over-eager sensitivity of my touchpad just destroyed a well-phrased reply...

So, for a terser version:

2 hours ago, None said:

One thing her have' been bothering me for a while. I've heard elsewehere that the Sea and Water rune have a conection to life and food (i.e food production) even older and more powerful than the Earth rune So why are you constantly wording this as if it is Earth that gives food to the Sea?

Or do you mean that the Sea with access to Earth can increase its own food production and that is why it  whant the earth cube so much?

Sea alone is an autotroph that can feed its ecology. Sea with Earth inside can enjoy harvesting fertility off the Earth Cube and act as a consumer rather than a mere producer. It is an acquired taste for the easy, good life, almost an addiction to the euphoria of taking the energy from that cube. And now someone else has the top part!

 

2 hours ago, None said:

Its because I've always been under the impression that the Earth want to add the Water runes life/food capacity toitself while the Ocean is upset that the earth cube pushed it away. Hence why Earth and Ernalda like rain so much.

That's more a matter of plants wanting a regular supply of (clean, non-salty) water (but with sufficient nutrients).

Yes, there is water "trapped" or "preserved" inside the Earth Cube - considerable amounts, actually, possibly rivalling or exceeding the sum of the surface seas that are above the splintered cube.

 

2 hours ago, None said:

Actually it would be interesting to create a people who found a way to make food with only Sky/Fire and Water, bypassing Earth entirely, and then see what happen. Although I guess that would really upset a lot of gods and bring about a new war. Assumingh said people aren't immediately squashed that is.

The marshes on both flanks of Pamaltela fulfill that condition pretty well, and much of the Errinoru jungle uses the earth it stands on mainly for stability, with fertility hardly penetrating into the soil and the cycle of life violently happening on a daily basis.

 

2 hours ago, None said:

That's interesting considering how prudish the Dara Happan's seem to be.

The only good reason for veiling up your wives...

2 hours ago, None said:

I also thought that that personality trait you describe there was Lodrils modus operandi. Although with magma instead of light (and Orlanth too come to think of it, although neither of those two can make you pregnant just by looking at you, true).

Lodril (and Orlanth) is about hugging and bordering on wrestling. Full physical contact.

2 hours ago, None said:

That begs the question. Can Orlanth make you pregnant just by blowing at you?

I think he needs to rain on you, e.g. Niskis-style.

 

2 hours ago, None said:

Still, I'd appreciate it if you could explain Yelmic Justice in detail.

I'd better leave that to less prejudiced other folk. As far as I am concerned, Yelmic society is exploitative and parasitic, and based on fake legitimacy.

Sandy Petersen tried valiantly to convince me of Yelm's benevolence on the RuneQuest Daily in 1994. His arguments might convince you.

 

2 hours ago, None said:

What? I have to admit, Chaos was the one faction I didn't expect that with. Please explain. Wouldn't that be like the Earth Queen commiting suicide conciddering Chaos want everything to to go back to before Darkness?

"Lay back, and think of England!" The fate of daughters of the supreme queen.

Not that the other husbands are much gentler to their queens in that game. Her survival isn't instrumental to the marriage pact...

 

2 hours ago, None said:

I haven't had the time to read that entire book yet (I've mostly skimmed it and names and dates aren't my strong suit, characters I can remember easier)

Then Entekosiad might not be your kind of book. Too few dates, but myriads of names.

2 hours ago, None said:

and don't know Saird yet so I cant say anything about it, same about Maniria. Prax is so desolate that I conected it more with Urox than Ernalda. She's also not the main goddes of the Praxians to my knowledge.

Saird is basically the Lunar provinces conquered by Hwarin Dalthippa, including much of Sylila. Historically an Orlanthi region, with lots of variant Theyalan style theist minor peoples like the dog-loving Jajalarings or the gardeners of Dara Ni, many of whom survived the Greater Darkness only as slaves of the trolls.

 

2 hours ago, None said:

I haven't heard of her before. Now I'm qurious, please do tell. The way you put it I have to assume she's one of the blood sacrifie to the earth types?

Imarja, the mystic entity of female mysteries, a humanoid goose-headed goddess presented in Esrolia - Land of 10K Goddesses. Whose followers have accumulated a small amount of martyrdom and a huge amount of backstabbing, treason and uxorial spite.

Strong on information on Ernalda, with a lot of disturbing secrets about her.

2 hours ago, None said:

Now I wish I knew more about Entekos. I think I know which book I'm going to buy next.

I feel slightly guilty... Entekosiad is an excellent exercise of mythic investigation, but even less concise than is King of Sartar. It can come across as incoherent, and it is hard to establish a red thread rooted in the monomyth.

I myself wish I knew more about Entekos, and I have been discussing the Entekosiad since it was first published.

 

2 hours ago, None said:

But Malkion, Isn't he the god of atheism and sorcery?

Yes, and surprisingly, one version of his myths has a completely theist background for him, with his father Aerlit a local storm god of Seshnela, and one of many in the host of the Vadrudi, who became the gentle husband of Warera Triolina. The Waertagi worship him in this role as their ancestor, and a number of Malkioni sects acknowledge this as preferred or additional explanation for their origin next to Zzabur's highly impersonal and abstract devolution of the runes (with Zzabur elevating himself as an Erasanchula, or original rune).

 

2 hours ago, None said:

The otherones, excluding the God Learners and the Invisible God are a complete blank.

Calyz ands Pelandan Idovanus in particular interest me.

Sorry, I've been showering you with tons of Glorantha lore from various places and three decades of intensive studies. But yes, there are places with different variations of the Solar rule, and Teshnos with the funnily named variations of the three brothers plus two extra fire deities, including said Calyz, is one of these.

Teshnos is peripherally tied into the history of the eastern continent that (like the western one) only survives in archipelagos and peninsulas or coastal strips. It has a tiered caste system associated with those deities, and a number of immigrant cults. Think various variations on Angkor Vat, both populated and in ruins, for a first approximation.

Besides the Guide (which is fairly complete in its info on Teshnos) there is data in Revealed Mythologies and less in Middle Sea Empire, but approache those two sources with the caveat that Malkioni texts need a thorough editorial work-over or re-write.

 

Idovanus gets a few mentions in the Guide, and a little more exposition in Fortunate Succession, before Entekosiad gives you an overdose and lots of confusion. Nowadays mainly limited to Carmania, but then Carmania used to cover the Lunar Heartlands and the West Reaches before the arrival of the Red Goddess.

 

2 hours ago, None said:

Yes, I am. (Except 'trickster', I think your misplacing that one a bit.)

Many a ruling god has entered his position of power through trickery, including Yelm Brightface, Orlanth Deathwielder, Pamalt. And some of the myths of Zeus read like the exploits of Eurmal. Sometimes the tricky ruling god has a scapegoat trickster as a companion.

 

2 hours ago, None said:

That doesn't meant diferent regions and culturs can't have their own supreme Storm (or whicheverelemnt you prefer) god who is equal in stregth to the surmreme storm gods in other regions without actually being the same god or having the same core nature or personality. All of them doesn't have to be Orlanth/Ernalda/Yelm/etc., or else weaker than Orlanth.

That's why I mentioned Veldru, as the Storm Defender of the Vithelan lands/islands. Gets mentioned in the Guide and in explained in Revealed Mythologies, not to be included in RQG Gods and Goddesses of Glorantha (part one).

 

2 hours ago, None said:

Its not like all civilizations who immagined a sun god imagined said god the same way with the same nature.

True. Hence my examples of Idovanus and the Teshnan pantheon. There is less such variability for the Storm King, though.

2 hours ago, None said:

There is also no reason why one interpretation should be the 'correct' or 'stronger' one.

Sounds like what I really should do is try running a campain before the Gods War one day. Now how would that turn out? I don't think there are much material to work with.

Still, it would give an experience very different from normal Glorantha.

Yes. You could use that boardgame to extrapolate the relative roles of the factions in the future history. It will result in the Cosmic Compromise come flood or high water, but there is the possibility of Chaos coming out of the Gods War on top, or any other faction. Note that the game uses Third Age versions of the myths. The Lunar faction as the Artmali would look quite different from the retroactively inserted Red Goddess-themed faction.

 

2 hours ago, None said:

That's actually not a bad idea (by which I mneanI think it has merit and is interesting). AS I said, I like Ernalda as a character and as a majot or greater god. I don't even mind if her abition is to be the sole Surpreme Earth Goddes of all of Glotrantha. I just don't want her to be there, nor do I want The Earth way to the Ernalda way, so to speak.

In Genertela, you can avoid Ernalda only in the far east. The rest was indoctrinated by the Lightbringer missionaries and after the the God Learners.

Outside of Genertela, there is some Ernalda worship/identification in Umathela and possibly. The rest of those identifications are stretches rather than obvious identity. The Errinoru elves may have listened to their northern brethren when Errinoru visited there, but they have a better deal from Pamalt. (The same guy who built the defenses for the Doraddi against the encroaching jungle...)

 

2 hours ago, None said:

Just to be sure I'm not musunderstanding something by accident but who are/were the Theyalans? I've been conecting them to te Orlanthi.

The people of the Unity Council. Orlanthi and their human and Elder Race friends, and early converts. The Praxians were an early success, for instance.

All of the humans of the Holy Country are Theyalans by culture, but only the peoples of Heortland and to a lesser degree Esrolia worship Orlanth.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

...

So, for a terser version:

... SNIP ...

🤯  

Alas, for the lost 3rd volume of the Guide ...

 

 

🤡 

 

[Joerg]

12 hours ago, g33k said:

🤯  

Alas, for the lost 3rd volume of the Guide ...

 

 

🤡

 

I guess I'll just claim that my reply to this was also eaten by entropy. Saves me trying to write anything fitting about preferred treatment of Tricksters...

[None]

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

just destroyed a well-phrased reply.

Something similar almost happened to me yesterday. You have my sympathy.

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

Sea alone is an autotroph that can feed its ecology. Sea with Earth inside can enjoy harvesting fertility off the Earth Cube and act as a consumer rather than a mere producer. It is an acquired taste for the easy, good life, almost an addiction to the euphoria of taking the energy from that cube. And now someone else has the top part!

That does make a lot of sense.

 

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

The marshes on both flanks of Pamaltela fulfill that condition pretty well, and much of the Errinoru jungle uses the earth it stands on mainly for stability, with fertility hardly penetrating into the soil and the cycle of life violently happening on a daily basis.

I meant as in hydroponics. A method developed to only use use the Water and Sky/Fire rune.

(Although I suppose what you describe might very well effectively be the same, I don't claim to know the technicalities).

 

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

The only good reason for veiling up your wives...

Not entirely true (if II understand what you mean), I'm certain I could tink up a few different reasons than that if I wanted to and then there's what types of veils we're wearing and how. But that is an entirely different discussion which I see no point in going into now (if ever.)

 

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

Lodril (and Orlanth) is about hugging and bordering on wrestling. Full physical contact.

Ah, yes they do seem like the physical types now that you mention it.

 

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

I think he needs to rain on you, e.g. Niskis-style.

I do seem to remember a lot of rainig in Orlanth's stories with Ernalda (or at least one of them). Doesn't that mean he's actually borrowing Waters power?

 

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

I'd better leave that to less prejudiced other folk. As far as I am concerned, Yelmic society is exploitative and parasitic, and based on fake legitimacy.

Sandy Petersen tried valiantly to convince me of Yelm's benevolence on the RuneQuest Daily in 1994. His arguments might convince you.

I'm actually staunchly neutral on the matter (or mildlynegative to both). Both Orlanth's and Yelm's society seem to have their pros and cons. In both cases you have to pay something and you gain something. Its just a matter of which price you care the least to pay and what you value the most.

 

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

"Lay back, and think of England!" The fate of daughters of the supreme queen.

Not that the other husbands are much gentler to their queens in that game. Her survival isn't instrumental to the marriage pact...

Still , ending up with Chaos must be the worst possible outcome.

 

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

Then Entekosiad might not be your kind of book. Too few dates, but myriads of names.

 

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

I feel slightly guilty... Entekosiad is an excellent exercise of mythic investigation, but even less concise than is King of Sartar. It can come across as incoherent, and it is hard to establish a red thread rooted in the monomyth.

I myself wish I knew more about Entekos, and I have been discussing the Entekosiad since it was first published.

That might complicate things a bit but I am actually fairly good at remembering storylines. Of course, if said storyline end up being a list of dates and names of who and whatnot did this and that then that might hamper me. Still, if it is interestingh enough ...

 

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

Yes, and surprisingly, one version of his myths has a completely theist background for him, with his father Aerlit a local storm god of Seshnela, and one of many in the host of the Vadrudi, who became the gentle husband of Warera Triolina.

That's really interesting considering the philosophy of the West as I understand it.

 

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

Sorry, I've been showering you with tons of Glorantha lore from various places and three decades of intensive studies.

I don't mind. I have a surprisingly good memory, except when it is surprisingly bad. I rarely feel like it is in the middle (but it probably is more than I belive). That said, yes, I will be re-rading this thread later.

I find setting lore fascinating in almost any game.

 

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

Many a ruling god has entered his position of power through trickery, including Yelm Brightface, Orlanth Deathwielder, Pamalt. And some of the myths of Zeus read like the exploits of Eurmal. Sometimes the tricky ruling god has a scapegoat trickster as a companion.

Ah, you meant it like that.

I was think about how the tricster archetype itself rarely is a supreme god (and not even a horrible character all the time). He who gave fire to the mortals (Promethevs i belive his name was) could be considered a trickster character for instance and I don't remember much bad about him (unless you're Zeus).

 

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

True. Hence my examples of Idovanus and the Teshnan pantheon. There is less such variability for the Storm King, though.

Yes, storms tend to be a bit more hands on and simmilar as a natural phenomenon. Although I could immagine one that brings life to another desolate area whenever it appears)

The sun mostly just hang there, allowing a lot more for you're immagination. (Then there'ste climate which can influence the sun too, obviously.)

 

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

Quote

There is also no reason why one interpretation should be the 'correct' or 'stronger' one.

Sounds like what I really should do is try running a campain before the Gods War one day. Now how would that turn out? I don't think there are much material to work with.

Still, it would give an experience very different from normal Glorantha.

Yes. You could use that boardgame to extrapolate the relative roles of the factions in the future history. It will result in the Cosmic Compromise come flood or high water, but there is the possibility of Chaos coming out of the Gods War on top, or any other faction. Note that the game uses Third Age versions of the myths. The Lunar faction as the Artmali would look quite different from the retroactively inserted Red Goddess-themed faction.

Then I need to know where I can get information about it (or I could try and buy it I supose but that's not something I cand o at the drop of a hat and I'd need to be sure it fun to play too or I'll just end up harping on myself for spending money frivolously).

Still, a campaign in the pre-Gods War eras (Green Age and Gold Age, I'd also mntion Storm Age but that's technically post-Gods War, isn't it?) has my definitve interest. I might even create a thread on that topic later.

 

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

Pamalt

He has his own rune to, doesn't he? Yet he has very little inforation about him that I know of (probably because of the souther continent).

 

edit: Actually. Oner thing I've beein tending to ask for quite a while now but keep forgetting is about Dara Happa nobility and cuilts.

If Dara Happan's don't initiate into cults like the Orlanthi do and priests alone are the only dedicated cult members does that mean that the Dara Happa nobility doesn't have rune powers like the Orlanthi?

Or do the priests somehow take care of the worshiping and give the benefit to their noble lords?

Edited November 24, 2019 by None

[Eff]

1 hour ago, None said:

edit: Actually. Oner thing I've beein tending to ask for quite a while now but keep forgetting is about Dara Happa nobility and cuilts.

If Dara Happan's don't initiate into cults like the Orlanthi do and priests alone are the only dedicated cult members does that mean that the Dara Happa nobility doesn't have rune powers like the Orlanthi?

Or do the priests somehow take care of the worshiping and give the benefit to their noble lords?

There are basically two options here, as I see it:

1) Dara Happan religion is like Hellenic and Roman religion and initiation is a province of mystery cults and not an everyday thing. This would require a great deal of elaboration to make work within Gloranthan metaphysics and with existing material which very much suggests Dara Happans use theistic emulation magic which RQ calls Rune Magic. 

2) Dara Happans don't initiate like Orlanthi in that the overwhelming majority aren't initiated into adulthood into the same god's cult. Instead you initiate into the city-gods' cult at adulthood and then into particular cults associated with your social role and move between them as that shifts. 

Obviously, I prefer this approach, in that it retains a lot of the Mesopotamian and Classical Antiquity feel of Dara Happa and Peloria by making DH spiritually a collection of city-states bound by shared cultural norms and also works without having to stretch the metaphysics too much.

And how this manifests is that the average Dara Happan has more specialized magic than the average Orlanthi does. So Dara Happans are generally better in their particular field than Orlanthi but not as flexible. 

(In a military analogy, the DH phalanx would be difficult to break with a frontal assault but the looser Orlanthi warbands would be more able to flow around it and attack from its sides and rear.)

The broader question is that this would possibly push things into HQ1 territory with regards to profusion of cults, though ruleswise it seems simple to just have a citygod overarching cult and note a few specialized variants. 

[Joerg]

 

10 hours ago, None said:

I do seem to remember a lot of rainig in Orlanth's stories with Ernalda (or at least one of them). Doesn't that mean he's actually borrowing Waters power?

He has stolen powers from all the elements. But if you read up on the wooing of Ernalda, his fertilizing rains are mentioned there, too, and that should be before he encounters Heler and his folk in Battle but leaves as besties with benefits.

 

10 hours ago, None said:

Still , ending up with Chaos must be the worst possible outcome.

As long as you can direct destruction at others, it's not that bad.

10 hours ago, None said:

That's really interesting considering the philosophy of the West as I understand it.

It is one of two origin stories of the Malkioni (I call it the Brithos version, as opposed to the Danmalastan version which has Malkion re-incarnating as ever more devolved versions of the Invisible God/Creator/Logic. Both these versions are in Revealed Mythologies, and both are still canonical as in-world texts and beliefs.)

 

10 hours ago, None said:

I was think about how the tricster archetype itself rarely is a supreme god (and not even a horrible character all the time). He who gave fire to the mortals (Promethevs i belive his name was) could be considered a trickster character for instance and I don't remember much bad about him (unless you're Zeus).

That's close to "Eurmal Friend of Men", the probably friendliest variant of Eurmal found anywhere in Glorantha, worshiped in Fronela.

 

10 hours ago, None said:

Then I need to know where I can get information about it (or I could try and buy it I supose but that's not something I cand o at the drop of a hat and I'd need to be sure it fun to play too or I'll just end up harping on myself for spending money frivolously).

I am a fan of the game, but you should play someone else's copy of the game before deciding to shell out that much money.

 

10 hours ago, None said:

Still, a campaign in the pre-Gods War eras (Green Age and Gold Age, I'd also mntion Storm Age but that's technically post-Gods War, isn't it?) has my definitve interest. I might even create a thread on that topic later.

No, the sequence of the Seasons doesn't directly map to the sequence of the Ages.

Storm Age is another name for the Gods War, except for the bits that are best described as Greater Darkness or Chaos Age. Other cultures than the Orlanthi call the Storm Age after the death of the Emperor the Lesser Darkness.

Some scholars put the start of the Storm Age into the Golden Age, either with the birth of Umath (quite early) or with the incident that led to his Chaining/Dismemberment by Jagrekriand/Shargash resulting in the rise of the activiies of Vadrus and his brothers.

The era after the worst of the Greater Darkness was stopped by the Ritual of the Net in the Underworld and the I Fought We Won battle in what remained of the World of the Living is called the Silver Age by the Theyalans (who saw a resurgence of culture and a continuation of the cooperation from the Unity Battle and the individuals in the I Fought We One battle which led to the Unity Council) or the Grey Age by most other cultures that have memories of this period. Quite a few survivors of the Hero Wars had no notion that the hardness and impossibilities of the Greater Darkness had ended until awakened from that trauma by contact with others, like the Lightbringer Missionaries (if they were lucky) or by neighbors like the Garangordites in Fonrit (if you were as unlucky as the Artmali descendants living there).

 

Pamalt:

10 hours ago, None said:

He has his own rune to, doesn't he? Yet he has very little inforation about him that I know of (probably because of the souther continent).

 

There are a number of myths around Pamalt in Revealed Mythologies, possibly more than we have about Genert.

 

10 hours ago, None said:

edit: Actually. Oner thing I've beein tending to ask for quite a while now but keep forgetting is about Dara Happa nobility and cuilts.

If Dara Happan's don't initiate into cults like the Orlanthi do and priests alone are the only dedicated cult members does that mean that the Dara Happa nobility doesn't have rune powers like the Orlanthi?

Or do the priests somehow take care of the worshiping and give the benefit to their noble lords?

As far as I can make out, the initiation rate of the people with Yelmic ancestry is higher than that of the rest of the Pelorians, if only (according to the RQ3 Yelm cult) Yelm the Youth initiation - a very basic initiation with hardly any benefits and no usable rune magic. (Apart from Yelm, only the cult of Aldrya offers a similar rather meaningless initiation as the Children of the Forest, at least in the old RQ2/RQ3 material).

Part of the reason is that the yelmic nobility acts as a form of priesthood overseeing the holy folk of other cults. Their role in the bureaucracy is accompanied by religious duties, too.

[Lordabdul]

18 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

Quote

I do seem to remember a lot of rainig in Orlanth's stories with Ernalda (or at least one of them). Doesn't that mean he's actually borrowing Waters power?

He has stolen powers from all the elements.

This is one of the things I struggle with Glorantha, where I sometimes wonder why I bother trying to match Runes to Gods... If I understand this correctly, I guess it gets muddy because:

1) The Celestial Court had some well defined deities each representing a Rune, and they weren't doing much besides, well, being that Rune. Then as more things and entities got created, and the original entities disappeared or got killed, the new entities developed personalities (which the original Celestial Court lacked AFAICT) and started having drama between themselves, doing things with the universe, having kids and so on. It wasn't about being a representation of a Rune anymore, as much as being the best embodiment of a Rune. Like, I think at any point during God Time, anybody could have tried to act like an ever bigger jackass than Orlanth to try and claim the post of "principal Air Rune deity", no?

2) Even when we only consider the Runes themselves, it's tricky to figure out the, errr, "responsibilities" of each Rune, so to speak. For instance, making rain might not be the prerogative of the Water Rune. The Water Rune might be about controlling the Water but not creating it. Clouds and storms create water, and that's the realm of the Air Rune. It could be the Sky Rune if there was such a thing but in Glorantha the only other thing there is really the Fire Rune, representing the "sun" part of the sky -- and Umath kind of made it clear that the air was something separate between the sky and the earth.

[g33k]

20 hours ago, Joerg said:

... preferred treatment of Tricksters...

Tricksters??!?  Where?  Exile 'em, quick!  Or find an O.rex to Bond 'em.

Me?  I'm just the weeee bit more adventurous than the average Orlanth Adventurous, nuthin trickster-y atall about li'l old me, nuthin atall ...

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

This is one of the things I struggle with Glorantha, where I sometimes wonder why I bother trying to match Runes to Gods... If I understand this correctly, I guess it gets muddy because:

1) The Celestial Court had some well defined deities each representing a Rune, and they weren't doing much besides, well, being that Rune. Then as more things and entities got created, and the original entities disappeared or got killed, the new entities developed personalities (which the original Celestial Court lacked AFAICT) and started having drama between themselves, doing things with the universe, having kids and so on. It wasn't about being a representation of a Rune anymore, as much as being the best embodiment of a Rune.

Yes to this. Whether you are talking Celestial Court or the Court of Runes as depicted by Zzabur (who claims to be the Rune of Sorcery, and at least personality-wise shows a remarkable absence of likability), the earliest manifestations were fairly solipsistic until they found that others were possibly about them, too.

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Like, I think at any point during God Time, anybody could have tried to act like an ever bigger jackass than Orlanth to try and claim the post of "principal Air Rune deity", no?

Prior to Orlanth offing the Emperor, Vadrus was the most badass Storm guy around, doing great deeds of e.g. wife-taking (bad euphemism, here), and continuing to do so well into the Lesser Darkness like drying up the Faralinthor Sea (orphaning Choralinthor) and beating up just about everybody.

 

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

2) Even when we only consider the Runes themselves, it's tricky to figure out the, errr, "responsibilities" of each Rune, so to speak. For instance, making rain might not be the prerogative of the Water Rune.

Rain is a weird consequence of Heler (and possibly other entities, like the sea god who stepped on the Keet sage) losing their direct connection to the Seas. We discovered the dichotomy between unsaturated (hypotonic) and oversaturated (hypertonic) waters of Heler and Nelat rather recently, and possible mythical implications thereof.

Bringing (rather than making) rain (or not) is the battleground between Storm and Sun, with Heler having some agency alongside Storm.

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

The Water Rune might be about controlling the Water but not creating it. Clouds and storms create water, and that's the realm of the Air Rune. It could be the Sky Rune if there was such a thing but in Glorantha the only other thing there is really the Fire Rune, representing the "sun" part of the sky -- and Umath kind of made it clear that the air was something separate between the sky and the earth.

The Light Rune has become synonymous for the sky, at least during Yelm's great Sunstop that makes up at least the second half of the Golden Age.

 

2 hours ago, g33k said:

Tricksters??!?  Where?  Exile 'em, quick!  Or find an O.rex to Bond 'em.

Those were not part of the Trickster treatments I was considering. More in the sense of slow dismemberment, frying the pieces and serving them to the Trickster...

 

2 hours ago, g33k said:

Me?  I'm just the weeee bit more adventurous than the average Orlanth Adventurous, nuthin trickster-y atall about li'l old me, nuthin atall ...

Apart from those patches of tar and feathers that just won't wash off, right?

[None]

22 hours ago, Eff said:

Obviously, I prefer this approach, in that it retains a lot of the Mesopotamian and Classical Antiquity feel of Dara Happa and Peloria by making DH spiritually a collection of city-states bound by shared cultural norms and also works without having to stretch the metaphysics too much.

And how this manifests is that the average Dara Happan has more specialized magic than the average Orlanthi does. So Dara Happans are generally better in their particular field than Orlanthi but not as flexible. 

You could also work this to make the feel more civilized than the Orlanthi. Or maybe not. I have to think some more on that before I'm sure but you should be able to something with the distinction between the two.

 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

I am a fan of the game, but you should play someone else's copy of the game before deciding to shell out that much money.

The issue is that I don't know anyone with a copy. I also looked up the game on Board Game Geek and yes, that is a bit expensive to buy without knowing if you'd actually enjoy it.

(I was also a lot more rescent than I'd expected.)

I did however check out the first halves of the of the faction introduction videos and I'll see if I get the time to check out the rest later. I can't say I understand how the board game will help me prepare and run a camaign in the pre-Gods War eras. The game itself look like could be interesting though but Io rarely get the chance to play so, yeah.

 

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

No, the sequence of the Seasons doesn't directly map to the sequence of the Ages.

I, I'm, not sure how you ended up beliveing I thought they did. I though the ages were Green Age, Gold Age, Storm Age, Great Darkness, Time.

(With time being divided in two or three ages itself.)

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Part of the reason is that the yelmic nobility acts as a form of priesthood overseeing the holy folk of other cults. Their role in the bureaucracy is accompanied by religious duties, too.

Ah, so they're essentially priest-nobility.

 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, None said:

You could also work this to make the feel more civilized than the Orlanthi.

I don't think of the Orlanthi as being uncivilized. Their civilization has different values than those of the Dara Happans or Esrolians, but they aren't less civilized.

Places with capital punishment for minor infringements aren't any more civilized than places with communal responsibility for wrong-doings. Whether an overabundance of incarceration or amputations, a society doesn't get more civilized by that.

 

 

1 hour ago, None said:

I did however check out the first halves of the of the faction introduction videos and I'll see if I get the time to check out the rest later. I can't say I understand how the board game will help me prepare and run a camaign in the pre-Gods War eras. The game itself look like could be interesting though but Io rarely get the chance to play so, yeah.

It is one way to play out which god overcame which, and where. Rewriting history and myths.

 

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I, I'm, not sure how you ended up beliveing I thought they did.

Well, you wrote:

On 11/24/2019 at 12:51 PM, None said:

Still, a campaign in the pre-Gods War eras (Green Age and Gold Age, I'd also mntion Storm Age but that's technically post-Gods War, isn't it?) has my definitve interest. I might even create a thread on that topic later.

The Gods' War ended with the Ritual of the Net and I Fought We Won, at the end of the Greater Darkness, on the cusp of the Gray Age. The Storm Age starts in the Golden Age - some say with the birth of Umath. The Gods War starts with Umath being denied entry to the Upper Sky, or with Orlanth slaying the Emperor.

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I though the ages were Green Age, Gold Age, Storm Age, Great Darkness, Time.

(With time being divided in two or three ages itself.)

The Gods' War covers (most of) the Storm Age and continues into the Greater Darkness, and ends with it.

 

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Ah, so they're essentially priest-nobility.

All theist nobility are. They are required to (oversee the) sacrifice to the ruli

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 hours ago, None said:

Ah, so they're essentially priest-nobility.

 

Arguably, it's more common in Glorantha for priesthood and nobility to be combined than for them to be separated. An Orlanthi chief or king is also a priest-noble, for example, as is an Esrolian Queen (I think?), and Praxian and Pentan leadership.

This is in line with the bronze- and iron age inspirations of Glorantha.

What sets the Yelmite priest-nobility aside to some degree is that they are priests who oversee the other priests.