HeroQuest Glorantha starting setting

[Austin]

On 11/10/2019 at 5:28 PM, Ufnal said:

The first part of the problem is the feeling that everything is already described and decided. We know year by year, often month by month, what the main players of the region are going to do. We know all the local tribes and their characteristics and attitudes and relationships. [At least we know that if we own all the sourcebooks. I don't, but the pressure of established canon is only lessened a bit that way - this may be stupid, but I feel like I shouldn't make up my own tribes and clans where there are things already brilliantly described]. 

The second part of the problem is that this "metaplot" of Orlanthi-Lunar war is so powerful and prevalent that I'm finding it hard to imagine a campaign among the Sartarite tribes that doesn't live in its shadow and doesn't pretty quickly have to address the happenings of the war. This leads the characters to become a part of the historical events - but I fear that this practically means playing second fiddle to Broyan, Argrath or Harrek, without much agency in how the war unfolds (unless the characters are powerful enough to stand against those legends or the likes of Jar-Eel).

I don't really have any advice to give which the other fine folks around here haven't said, but I'd just like to chime in and reassure that you're not alone in feeling this way . I often say "most detailed" fantasy setting over "best" fantasy setting to describe Glorantha for a reason. I've been playing an RQG campaign for about a year now (and about a year in-game, too!) and it's a devil of a thing to organize a house campaign such that, if and when cool new canon-fitting scenarios are published, I'll be able to slot them in and finally stop writing as much material on my own.

Now, this is doable. I promise. But there's other gamemasters getting Gloranthan brain-cramps out there too.

[Aprewett]

This talk of the meta plot; where do you find these future event nuggets. For example, I would not like to start playing and then read about some plot event that I had missed that could have been really good. Windstop and other events named for example. Not saying I would feel constrained to use them, but handy to get a feel for possible events without player intervention. Are they buried in different books, or collected somewhere?

Thanks

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Aprewett said:

This talk of the meta plot; where do you find these future event nuggets. For example, I would not like to start playing and then read about some plot event that I had missed that could have been really good. Windstop and other events named for example. Not saying I would feel constrained to use them, but handy to get a feel for possible events without player intervention. Are they buried in different books, or collected somewhere?

Thanks

The primary metaplot is described in the book King of Sartar.  It's the story of Argrath fighting the Lunar Empire, the Argrath Saga.

Bear in mind it's written as an in-world piece (or collected pieces), so it's not necessarily all the truth. You'll also find related pieces in the Guide to Glorantha, particularly at the end of vol.2.

[Lordabdul]

The Red Cow campaign books (especially the 2nd one, The Eleven Lights) also have more detailed versions of some of those events (they cover things from 1618 to 1625).

Generally speaking, as someone said already, it's the problem with meta-plots, as seen in many other well-known RPGs before, and has been dividing gamers since at least the late 1980s. Many WoD gamers just completely ignored the meta-plot for instance.

[David Scott]

On 11/12/2019 at 6:58 PM, Bill the barbarian said:

what is that item running north and south from Goodsword to near the border (it looks like MALANI MILLS LOW). A canyon or ravine?

Malani Hills (low). It's based part on two maps, one from Tales 18 (updated in WF15) and the Issaries Dragon Pass Map:

[soltakss]

On 11/10/2019 at 11:28 PM, Ufnal said:

The first part of the problem is the feeling that everything is already described and decided. We know year by year, often month by month, what the main players of the region are going to do. We know all the local tribes and their characteristics and attitudes and relationships. [At least we know that if we own all the sourcebooks. I don't, but the pressure of established canon is only lessened a bit that way - this may be stupid, but I feel like I shouldn't make up my own tribes and clans where there are things already brilliantly described]. 

I like to think of it this way. I was brought up in Thatcher's Britain, with the Miners' Strike, Falklands War and so on. as someone living in rural Northamptonshire, I saw about these things on the TV and read about then in the newspapers, but they didn't really impact our lives at all. The same could apply to Sartar during the Hero Wars. Yes, someone heard that a Dragon rose, we all saw the Boat Star reappear, for some reason, the surrounding clans seem to be struggling with the Lunars, but what does all that matter? The Brittlesticks Clan is still trying to steal our orchards, the longhairs are after our sheep and we are trying to grab a prize bull from the Noserings Clan. Ethel Fairhair is still the prized trophy in the Summer Fair and all the boys want to win to spend time with her. Oh, and my cousin's cousin just came from Pavis and said that the Lunars were thrown out and some chap called Argrath is now king. My mate's mate satys the Lunars are really upset, as they were all eaten by the dragon, but I don't believe them, as I've seen a dragon and they couldn't eat an army.

On 11/10/2019 at 11:28 PM, Ufnal said:

The second part of the problem is that this "metaplot" of Orlanthi-Lunar war is so powerful and prevalent that I'm finding it hard to imagine a campaign among the Sartarite tribes that doesn't live in its shadow and doesn't pretty quickly have to address the happenings of the war. This leads the characters to become a part of the historical events - but I fear that this practically means playing second fiddle to Broyan, Argrath or Harrek, without much agency in how the war unfolds (unless the characters are powerful enough to stand against those legends or the likes of Jar-Eel).

The metaplot only affects you if you are doing things that it touches on or are the kind of PCs who want to take part in those events. Some Players like to do that and some don't.

There are several ways of doing this:

Have the PCs take part in the events and become part of the events. I did this in two of my Campaigns, one where one PC became the King of Greater Balazar and was adopted by the Red Emperor, where the Orlanthi in the party took exception to a jumped-up chap called Argrath and killed him, sending him to a Lunar Hell, and the Troll in the party did the same to Harrek, albeit unintentionally. in the other Campaign, the PCs were determined not to get sucked into the Hero Wars, to the extent that they avoided anything that smacked of the Hero Wars, but they ended up bringing back Orlanth, Pavis, Tada and Genert, then kicked the Lunard out of Prax and Dragon Pass, became Queen of Prax, King of Dragon Pass and, finally, one became the Sun Dragon Emperor of Dara Happa, leaving Argrath crying into his mead, saying "I could have been somebody, if it wasn't for those pesky River Voices".

Have the Hero Wars events happen in the background, as news items, or things the PCs see, or have some idea of.

Have the campaign concentrate on the things that happen as a result of the Hero Wars events. Lunar refugees escape from Pavis and make their way back to Dragon Pass. Infighting among the clans happens as their leaders vie for favour. Chaos eruptions from Snakepipe Hollow and the Footprint cause problems.

Have the campaign pretty much ignore the Hero Wars and concentrate on local Clan issues.

All of these work and are all good ways of coping with the Hero Wars.

On 11/10/2019 at 11:28 PM, Ufnal said:

These two things combined mean that I am finding it hard to imagine any campaign in the setting and timeframe of HeroQuest Glorantha that isn't a railroaded ride through the early Hero Wars, with little room for non-HW related adventuring and few opportunities to make a difference other than in making sure the prescribed chain of events happens. This is most probably my imagination's fault, not the setting's, but it's a hurdle I am finding difficult to overcome.

If you are the GM, you have control over what flavour the Campaign takes and what generally happens. If it is a Sandboxy Campaign, the Players take more control and do what they want. If they don't want to play in the Hero Wars, they don;t have to, but can if they want.

As a GM, if I think "There's no point playing in Hero Wars Dragon Pass", then there is no point playing in Hero Wars Dragon Pass.

If, however, you think of all the opportunities for roleplaying in such a setting, it becomes less daunting.

On 11/10/2019 at 11:28 PM, Ufnal said:

I guess one of the solutions would be to focus on adventures in the wilderness and ruins surrounding Sartar instead of in the tribal lands. This would weaken the community aspect of HQG (unless it's a part of a quest that benefits the community), but give the game more room to breathe. [Although then there's the problem of what exactly does one put in Gloranthan ruins and wildernesses]

That could work, but most of the Clans of Sartar and Dragon pass are not involved in the Hero Wars. 

On 11/10/2019 at 11:28 PM, Ufnal said:

The other solution, of course, is going full YGWV and throwing away however much of the canon setting and events I want.

That works as well.

On 11/10/2019 at 11:28 PM, Ufnal said:

But is there another way? Where in the default HQG setting do you see room for adventurers, both low-powered and high-powered, to do some adventuring, do heroic deeds, grow in power and legend without neccessarily becoming a part of the main metaplot?

I started small. In the First Gloranthan Campaign, I inherited some high level PCs and took them on a journey where they become Kings and Heroes, but they didn't start off as Kings and Heroes, they started as Rune Level Adventurers, trying to make themselves known in the politics of the land. In the Second Gloranthan campaign, they were members of a street gang in Pavis, became Earthkin, then Sun County Militiamen, then River Voices, then Constables of Sun County and Pavis, then Heroes, then Kings and Queens. It was  along, involved journey over a very long period in real time, 13 years playing pretty much every week. A lot of their activities were not part of the Metaplot, they only really became involved when they brought back the Cradle, then brought back the Boat Planet. They pretty much lucked into doing the same things that Argrath did, partly due to my conniving and plotting, but partly due to their own decisions.

On 11/11/2019 at 1:40 PM, Ufnal said:

BTW, is buying the old HeroWars supplements for Sartarites useful for HQG Dragon Pass gaming? They are much more affordable, but AFAIK they are mostly about culture and religion, much of which has changed in the meantime?

Yes, buying the old RQ2/RQ3, HW and HQ supplements will only enrich your Glorantha.

On 11/12/2019 at 8:05 AM, Bill the barbarian said:

And forget about the cult info, it has not dated well at all! But some of the descriptions of home life... great!

I think the Cults Compendium is one of the best non-RQG Supplements out there and thin k the cults have lasted very well.

On 11/12/2019 at 8:21 AM, David Scott said:

I got the players to create their own clan, moved the borders and wedged it into an existing tribe. They even added their own geography, effectively it was a blank.

We did that in our HQ Blue Storm Dancers campaign, that was set in the Far Point. We had a great time, until the Clan Chieftain died and they wanted to bring him back, so roped me into running the Full Lightbringer Quest for them. I think it lasted a year of weekly gaming. The campaign ended when they brought him back, as they thought they couldn't top that. It did nothing with the Hero Wars and was none the worse for that.

 

[soltakss]

On 11/14/2019 at 12:34 PM, Aprewett said:

This talk of the meta plot; where do you find these future event nuggets.

King of Sartar, The Guide to Glorantha, the Red Cow Supplements, The Barbarians Rising series for HeroQuest.

At some point, I will try and write up what our PCs did in the Hero Wars, perhaps as a scenario pack, which might give an idea of how such a campaign might work.

On 11/14/2019 at 12:34 PM, Aprewett said:

For example, I would not like to start playing and then read about some plot event that I had missed that could have been really good. Windstop and other events named for example. Not saying I would feel constrained to use them, but handy to get a feel for possible events without player intervention.

You can interact with them easily enough.

For example, in my last Gloranthan Campaign, which people are probably tired of hearing about, the PCs were River Voices and wanted to marry Zola Fel to a suitable candidate, having done the Yelm-Oslir Quest several times and become the river's husbands, but then the Red Emperor appeared and performed it himself, with the PCs as opponents, they did it from the angle of "We are the Husbands of Zola Fel" and fought him to a stalemate, so he agreed to return in 7 years and marry her, if the PCs had not married her to someone more powerful. They decided that Genert was a more powerful deity, but he was dead, so resolved to bring him back and marry him to the Zola Fel to prevent the Red Emperor her. Now, they had no beef with the Lunars and had helped them before, but were peeved that the Red Emperor muscled in on their territory. As River Voices, they found a Waertagi Dragonship, bigger than any they had seen before, in Hell, when they rode the Cradle down Magasta's Pool, buried in the side of it was a Golden Barge, belonging to an original River Voice, so they tried to bring the ship back and instigated the return of the Sky ship, speaking to Dragons on the way. They resurrected Pavis and drove the Lunars out of Pavis, basically because they were tired of the Lunars arranging marriages on their turf and wanted to stop the Red Goddess from marrying Pavis. They fought the Crimson Bat as it was sent against them, and turned it inside out, freeing a True Dragon in the process, which then rose in the Dragon rise, that wasn't planned, it was a side-effect of killing the Crimson Bat. Mello Yello entered the contest to become King of Dragon Pass and succeeded, with a lot of help from his friends, so they made Harrek Duke of the Upland Marsh, to keep him out of the way, but helped him attack the Lunar Empire.

So, they did a lot of the Hero Wars scenarios and events without particularly planning to. 

[Akhôrahil]

On 11/14/2019 at 4:44 PM, lordabdul said:

Generally speaking, as someone said already, it's the problem with meta-plots, as seen in many other well-known RPGs before, and has been dividing gamers since at least the late 1980s. Many WoD gamers just completely ignored the meta-plot for instance.

My preferred way is what I call “metaplot up front”, where the game early on tells you what the metaplot is going to be like. The first time I saw it, and perhaps the very best example, was Tribe 8 2nd edition, which provides an outline of the massive metaplot they had in mind already in the rulebook (the huge campaign in the first edition was merely the first fifth).

King of Sartar and the Guide does something like it, but in a very incomplete and unreliable format. I really wish there was a “this is what happens in the HeroWars” outline (people tell me something like it exists, but only for a select audience).

Edited November 15, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Bill the barbarian]

26 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I think the Cults Compendium is one of the best non-RQG Supplements out there and thin k the cults have lasted very well.

 

I would agree 1000%! You are very correct on thet note.

Alas the OP I was answering was asking about HW products not RQ 2 and BRP products and while I love the Sartar Rising and Thunder Rebels HW books as much as most I have seen many positions from others (including Jeff) that say the cult information of this series is dated and seriously out of canon. The Cults Compendium and it’s component pieces are as you say... WONDERFUL!

Cheers

[g33k]

On 11/15/2019 at 12:09 PM, Akhôrahil said:

... King of Sartar and the Guide does something like it, but in a very incomplete and unreliable format. I really wish there was a “this is what happens in the HeroWars” outline (people tell me something like it exists, but only for a select audience).

That material has been (AFAIK) a pre-publication / rough-draft, assembled from KoS and other bits.

I expect they have been tweaking and adjusting and massaging it for years.  Sometimes more along the lines of "major surgery" than just "adjusting" it!

It wouldn't surprise me (at all!) to learn they were still adjusting it.

Presumably, the "select audience" is (mostly) authors & freelancers working on projects where it's relevant.

Chaosium is finally getting ready to release it, it seems... as the Argrathsaga aka "RQG Campaign Guide," or some such hifalutin' thing.  Presumably at that point, a bare timeline without fluff -- or a region-by-year table -- will be in an appendix or supplemental doc, or some such.

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, g33k said:

Chaosium is finally getting ready to release it, it seems... as the Argrathsaga aka "RQG Campaign Guide," or some such hifalutin' thing.  Presumably at that point, a bare timeline without fluff -- or a region-by-year table -- will be in an appendix or supplemental doc, or some such.

I'm assuming that the "Great Argrath Campaign" will cover the Argrath-adjacent stuff, and that's already what we know the most about. But there's so much more HeroWars out there - what happens in Pameltela, in Kraolorela, in the Eastern Islands (I think the Twin Phoenix War is still a thing?) In Fronela, Safelster, Seshnela?

What actually happens with the Dorastor/Bilini joint offensive against the Lunar Empire in 1629-30 (one is a Broo, the other is a Storm Bull, together they fight Lunars)? Actually, this one could turn up in tGAC... it has to be relevant!

Edited November 17, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Sir_Godspeed]

Personally, I'm not sure if an official, unilinear be-all-end-all timeline will necessary make things easier for people. Either you slavishly choose to follow it which seems a tad boring, or you end up deviating from it at some point, rendering everything that comes afterwards on it significantly less useful.

At least KoS has the whole "unreliable narrator" thing going on, which places a kind of hazy mist over everything and leaves the details up for personal interpretation. Not the least of which is who or what exactly Argrath was, or rather were.

[Bill the barbarian]

4 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Personally, I'm not sure if an official, unilinear be-all-end-all timeline will necessary make things easier for people. Either you slavishly choose to follow it which seems a tad boring, or you end up deviating from it at some point, rendering everything that comes afterwards on it significantly less useful.

True, so you, much like me, prefer your timelines like I prefer my maps.

Ideally (if not in reality), my fave maps begin at the edges near where it says "Here there be Dragons” I suppose I could say the same about timelines. I don’t mind the god view of the unchangeable high points (which munchkin and murder hobos take as guides to treasure) the same as I love a good sandbox map all laid out before me but (same god’s eye view)... but every now and again a childlike wonder escapes from this adult barbarian and thinks ahhh, “Here be mystery...” 

Not often enough, so maybe with my doddering years (what do you mean too late?), I will start being a little braver and stray off the beaten map/timeline a little more even if I return to the safety and (relative) ease of canon more than I should.

Cheers

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Personally, I'm not sure if an official, unilinear be-all-end-all timeline will necessary make things easier for people. Either you slavishly choose to follow it which seems a tad boring, or you end up deviating from it at some point, rendering everything that comes afterwards on it significantly less useful.

Forewarned is forearmed, I'm thinking - at least you know what the future official history is. I mean, when it comes to Argrath's doings, we have a lot of it described already.

[Sir_Godspeed]

Well, I guess it's at least useful to have it all collected rather than have to dig through mountains of apocrypha from 40+ years of publishing.

[Lordabdul]

13 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

But there's so much more HeroWars out there - what happens in Pameltela, in Kraolorela, in the Eastern Islands (I think the Twin Phoenix War is still a thing?) In Fronela, Safelster, Seshnela?

Given that RQG is currently focused on Dragon Pass and its immediate surroundings, it wouldn't make sense to release something that gives detailed timelines on some areas that were not even mentioned. If it was a system-agnostic GtG-type book, yeah, but in this case I think it will be an RQG book.

[Akhôrahil]

7 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Given that RQG is currently focused on Dragon Pass and its immediate surroundings, it wouldn't make sense to release something that gives detailed timelines on some areas that were not even mentioned. If it was a system-agnostic GtG-type book, yeah, but in this case I think it will be an RQG book.

Doesn’t have to be RQ, agree.

Also, hopefully, we will some day get something for RQ that is something beside Dragon Pass & Prax. Not that I can blame them, but Chaosium is playing things incredibly safe, with new versions of all the old mainstays and less straying from Dragon Pass than any earlier version.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[None]

Out of curiosity. Have anyone thought of separaing Dara Happa and most of peloria from the Lunar Empire in order to create three power blocks that all have different reasons to dislike and antagonise each other but also to tolerate each other in order to make headaway against a common foe?

[Joerg]

15 minutes ago, None said:

Out of curiosity. Have anyone thought of separaing Dara Happa and most of peloria from the Lunar Empire in order to create three power blocks that all have different reasons to dislike and antagonise each other but also to tolerate each other in order to make headaway against a common foe?

The Red Emperor is the Dara Happan Emperor. The Lunar Empire is the Dara Happan Empire with a new religion added.

But basically, Argrath followed pretty much this approach when he declared Sheng Seleris as his desired reward for the Lightbringers' Quest.

There is a cooperation between Argrath and the Lodrili of Peloria mentioned in Argrath's Saga (King of Sartar p.25 hardcover), after the Lightbringers' Quest, when Argrath sabotages the Kalikos quest. That's not exactly the Dara Happan tripolis, but the rural parts of Peloria (which sought Argrath as protector against Sheng Seleris).

The deep state of the Empire kept operating even though Sheng provided a new emperor - the Kalikos Quest with its Lunar magic still was sent off by the Empire. Now it isn't clear whether the Empire kept resisting Sheng in some satrapies while others were completely subdued by Sheng (which had been the case during Sheng's original reign), or whether Sheng succeeds in usurping the empire in toto.

[None]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The Red Emperor is the Dara Happan Emperor. The Lunar Empire is the Dara Happan Empire with a new religion added.

I know that, I meant as a direct alteration of the setting before character creation or a campain even begins. Not as the act of characters within the story. Although Hero Questing to force Dara Happa and the Lunar Empire apart is an interesting idea.

Edited November 18, 2019 by None

[scott-martin]

2 minutes ago, None said:

I know that, I meant as a direct alteration of the setting before character creation or a campain even begins. Noy as the act of characters within the story. Although Hero Questing to force Dara Happa and the Lunar Empire apart is an interesting idea.

Someone could either go back and play out the Jannisor's War era or contemplate a Lunar Civil War to come. A lot of work but probably very rewarding..

[Sir_Godspeed]

12 minutes ago, None said:

I know that, I meant as a direct alteration of the setting before character creation or a campain even begins. Noy as the act of characters within the story. Although Hero Questing to force Dara Happa and the Lunar Empire apart is an interesting idea.

Alternate histories of Glorantha are interesting. I've considered what would happened if Genert had survived a few times - though the result might've been so different that the setting would have been almost unrecognizeable (for one, a lot of the theistic conflicts of Genertela might have been curtailed by a powerful regional entity favoring cooperation and (relative) harmony - sort of like how Pamalt does it in the south).

[None]

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Alternate histories of Glorantha are interesting. I've considered what would happened if Genert had survived a few times - though the result might've been so different that the setting would have been almost unrecognizeable (for one, a lot of the theistic conflicts of Genertela might have been curtailed by a powerful regional entity favoring cooperation and (relative) harmony - sort of like how Pamalt does it in the south).

Yes something like that. The reason I find separating Dara Happa and the Lunar Empire intersting is that a conflict of three is a lot more dynamic than a conflict of two. It also removes the old 'oppressive empire against gutsy orlanthi rebels' thing that seems far to common with them and I've grown somewhat tired of.

[Sir_Godspeed]

7 minutes ago, None said:

Yes something like that. The reason I find separating Dara Happa and the Lunar Empire intersting is that a conflict of three is a lot more dynamic than a conflict of two. It also removes the old 'oppressive empire against gutsy orlanthi rebels' thing that seems far to common with them and I've grown somewhat tired of.

To be fair, that seems to be THE central theme of the entire setting. And I know that all sorts of Western pseudo-Arthurianism and other stuff exists, but ultimately it's about the Rebel-Tyrant conflict that rings through the ages in Central Genertela.

Not that this should shackle you to follow it, of course.

I think if the Lunar Empire had stayed mostly in eastern Peloria, with Rinliddi as its main seat, you might have a situation where also the Carmanian Empire (assuming it lost control of the Tripolis) would be a serious contender.

This also means no Battle at Castle Blue, so Sedenya's position as a goddess would be severely fraught - and... would the Red Moon even exist? I guess you could write around by saying she uplifted herself some somewhere else, maybe outside Torang or something. She would be opposed by BOTH Orlanth and Yelm though. 

Then there's Sheng, whose story would be needing some reavulation of course. Maybe he only conquered the Lunar (Rinliddi) Empire before dying off, or maybe he conquered all three Pelorian Empires before dying off or maybe he went all-in for Kralorela.

 

[None]

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

She would be opposed by BOTH Orlanth and Yelm though. 

Yes but while Orlanth and Yelm are sort of aggreable towards each other the orlanthi and Dara Happans are not as far as I know and then there is the natural friction between the sky/fire rune and the storm rune  so you shouldn't get an immediate alliance of two against one.

With a bit of work I'd hope the question of wholikes each other most, if any, could be left up in the air for a long time and possibly even shift around a few times before the end. You could even easily have something similar to a shaky or uncertain stalemate once or twice (or more) if you want.