All about Tricksters

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

and

If you want to go with a definition of Trickster that is so broad that all deities who do something clever and disruptive to change society once are Tricksters, so broad that (say) Orlanth or Waha or Hrestol or the Emperor Mikaday, even though after they did the tricky thing that disrupted society they became culture heroes that defined the normal cultural values of big swathes of Glorantha, then you are effectively redefining the term Trickster to became roughly meaningless, a personal and confusing use of the term that has little to do with the discussion the rest of us are having.

I beg to differ.

If a deity's position is based on selfish behavior at the cost of others, that is a sign of disorder. If that leads to a new world order, the trick is still on-going.

Yes, this is a fairly broad strike. And I am not saying that worshipers of Yelm or Orlanth are tricksters. I am saying that these gods have a Trickster aspect, and one that a Trickster cultist may have access to, somewhere.

Possibly quite epic stuff - a Yelm Trickster might be able to create a Sunstop. In all likelihood at the price of an infernal web manifesting and tieing that Trickster to the Sun Disk for as long as Time continues, or at the price of being slain as the spell ends. The spell may have only a local effect, as it changes the nature of Time, and those outside of the affected area may remain unaware of that spell.

 

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Change is not Disorder, Disorder is not necessarily Change. Real change is almost by definition no Illusory (though Illusion may make it appear so).  The gods that define the right way to do things (culturally) can't be the same as Trickster, who in many ways is there to demonstrate the wrong way. 

Or to demonstrate the weakness of the new way.

It is possible that successful rulers can amputate that Trickster, to be plagued by that piece of themselves as an external threat. In case of Mikaday, this might be how Sekever or his minions came into being.

But it may just be an on-going trick, possibly accidentally frozen by the Compromise, possibly backfiring against the Trickster's evil plan. "Holy shit, this actually works? Now how do I get out of this? Help!"

[None]

On 12/3/2019 at 6:34 PM, g33k said:

I think that ANY "ill-omened" child (arriving with strong & inborn Runic ties to Darkness, Sky, Disorder, etc)

No special mention for the Moon Rune? I remember the Orlanthi beeing especialy hostile to that one (and then of course there's the Chaos Rune).

Actually speaking of unusual or weid runic ties (for the Orlanthi) what if a child was born to an Orlanthi family with really strong ties to the Fire/Sky Rune, the Stasis Rune and the Mastery Rune and was brought to the family by Solar spirits or lesser gods or somethoing equivalent?

(Yes, I assume this would be quitre absurd but absurd senarios tickle my interest sometimes.)

 

Anyway, speaking of tricksters. I don't consider tricksters to be pranksters (thats just silly) but I also don't consider trickstes to be some kind of completely insane humanoid natural disasters (be the scale large or miniscule) totally lacking in impulse control (thats equally silly).

The're rules breakers, yes, but they're not required to be selfish or fail to understand the consequenses of their actions. Sometimes they're a bit too clever for their pown good and get a bit to fixated on that great joke or trick they've come up with and sometimes they just want to give all those dried up crummudgeons (read: everyone else that's not a tickster) smf good shake but that doesn't meanthey have to be predisposed to be nasty or untrustyworthy. In a way they're more true rebels than the Orlanthi.

Or even have to cause trouble with their antics (unless they mean to). Its more like they have discovered that the world is one huge joke that no one else has got yet and feel less inclined to take it as seriously as everyone else.

That said, sure, some may have a bit of impulse controll problem, thats fine. But it shouldn't be an obligatory part of their core character.

[Eff]

1 hour ago, None said:

No special mention for the Moon Rune? I remember the Orlanthi beeing especialy hostile to that one (and then of course there's the Chaos Rune).

Traditionally, a child discovered to be strong with Moon or Chaos (or presumably Hunger/Undeath, although that would be even rarer!) would be killed. Pro-Lunar clans probably didn't do this under the occupation for Moon children, though. 

[Sir_Godspeed]

34 minutes ago, Eff said:

Traditionally, a child discovered to be strong with Moon or Chaos (or presumably Hunger/Undeath, although that would be even rarer!) would be killed. Pro-Lunar clans probably didn't do this under the occupation for Moon children, though. 

Is this "traditional" since the rising of the Red Moon, or since before that? If the latter, why was the moon rune considered bad before the Red Moon rose?

[Eff]

2 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Is this "traditional" since the rising of the Red Moon, or since before that? If the latter, why was the moon rune considered bad before the Red Moon rose?

I think this would only be true for Sartarites and for a period after their arrival in Dragon Pass. Maybe Volsaxi too. (Belintar made use of the Moon Rune for the Holy Country, so I don't think he'd be especially fond of Heortlanders doing this). But a period of about 300 years of infanticide would be traditional enough in the real world. 

But it's entirely possible that most anti-Lunar folk beliefs only postdate the Lunarization of Tarsh! That would be a very rapid cropping up but such things have happened in the real world too. 

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Eff said:

a child discovered to be strong with Moon

I'm not sure that this would be the case.  The Moon Rune represents magical power, not necessarily Chaos.  It's the Red Moon that has the chaos taint.  Might they be suspect? Probably to the same degree as someone with the Illusion Rune.

[Sir_Godspeed]

Speculation: might Pelaskites be more inclined towards the Moon Rune than others, given its association with the tides? Or if not more common, perhaps just more prestigious?

[Eff]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

I'm not sure that this would be the case.  The Moon Rune represents magical power, not necessarily Chaos.  It's the Red Moon that has the chaos taint.  Might they be suspect? Probably to the same degree as someone with the Illusion Rune.

This is from a relatively old source- can't remember if it's Thunder Rebels or SKoH, and I'd be perfectly fine with discarding it for generally accepted Glorantha. It really doesn't make much sense, after all. 

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

It's the Red Moon that has the chaos taint. 

This finally motivates me to start looking for the ways lunar influences were consolidated not only through the Seven Mothers project but as the expanding empire recognized its reflection elsewhere. A lot of this would have happened in that heady early wane era when the shape of the world was changing and heroes were busy building what until recently was the third age status quo.

Work today is being done in a few directions with the sables, the Twins and other phenomena of "Lunar" Prax . . . it strikes me that it will be even more fruitful to look in Maniria, Fronela and other areas where the imperial tide has yet to flow. The native lunar influences in these places have probably languished forgotten or misunderstood until the magnetic tug of the Hero Wars focuses their force.

In the center is the Mountain of the Moon, a mysterious and shrouded land that took over the region where the Cosmic Mountain once stood.

If nothing else, there's that cryptic MOLAD chart where the eight one-point "moon demons" [sic] are "planets." Whoever understands that the yelmic sky is broken will probably work with that knowledge in what we consider a "lunar" way. 

And the moon in that chart is the daughter of dark and water so the invasion of the sky by blue and underworld entities would be part of that story. Two enemies for the old sun, one direct and one more subtle. 

Ironically enough looking back at "Red Moon in Prax" I suspect one of the things Jannisor Did that is now suppressed or ignored was to help codify the limits of Moon from outside, the points from which someone would consider the red light in the sky and say "that thing is not me, check your children for these signs." Maybe in Imther they have people really looking at the traces his martyrdom left behind. 

But then despite the Guide I'm not convinced Jannisor died in Glamour. "Red Moon in Prax" leaves it open. 

 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Speculation: might Pelaskites be more inclined towards the Moon Rune than others, given its association with the tides? Or if not more common, perhaps just more prestigious?

Prior to the Windstop, the Pelaskites of Kethaela may have been a lot more open to the moon rune than their Orlanthi neighbors.

Tatius scheme of the New Lunar Temple was a failure to crucial tenets of the Lunar Way, starting with "We All Are Us". It may have gelled with highly illuminated tenets, but it was a failure in winning the new subjects to the Lunar cause.

What Tatius was about to instal was a regime similar to that of Sheng Seleris or the Spolites in Peloria. In a Glorantha where the Dragonrise quest is a failure, the activated New Lunar Temple would draw the Empire into a self-destruction that will make the Unholy Trio seem to be sane and well-reasoned.

[scott-martin]

19 minutes ago, Joerg said:

a failure to crucial tenets of the Lunar Way

I wonder when and how Yara Aranis metastasizes into the science of Glow manipulation and the doctrine of Permanent Full. If only someone were brave enough to turn it off . . . but arguably the empire we have now would not survive the disruption, too much is built on Permanent Full.

EDIT: The Glowline was developed by Yara Aranis during and after the long war against Sheng to mark and hold the borders. The effect of the Glowline was to maintain the Lunar Constancy within its effect as if the Glowline was a container. It also increased the magnitude of this constancy to the level known today. (Some Lunars find this constancy within the empire to be a betrayal of the Goddess’ own nature. Secret organizations such as the Cyclical Conservators plot to end the betrayal. Thus far, however, they have had no success.)

Edited December 5, 2019 by scott-martin
typing it out from ILH-2

[Qizilbashwoman]

9 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

I wonder when and how Yara Aranis metastasizes into the science of Glow manipulation and the doctrine of Permanent Full. If only someone were brave enough to turn it off . . . but arguably the empire we have now would not survive the disruption, too much is built on Permanent Full.

it is a little odd that an Empire that has the theology of the changing Moon would fix the phase permanently. phase locking is the kind of thing you do around borders as a protective wall, not through the entire Empire. it's a little bit solar corruption

[Eff]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

it is a little odd that an Empire that has the theology of the changing Moon would fix the phase permanently. phase locking is the kind of thing you do around borders as a protective wall, not through the entire Empire. it's a little bit solar corruption

It's also odd that it seems to have been utterly ineffectual at actually defeating Sheng. Yara Aranis spends a whole Wane preparing herself to challenge Sheng, loses, loses so badly that Kostaddi abandons the Lunar Way completely and Sheng ascends as a star the very next year, and then appears to be a total non-factor in the Battle of Kitor... (Which appears to be Sheng invading Carmania rather than Magnificus reconquering Lunar territory.) Overall, the Seleran wars are fairly confusing. The Reaching Moon also seems to be a non-factor in the Nights of Horrors and the Redlands Revolt, for that matter. Perhaps Yara Aranis exists solely to provide the very specific Lunar Hell Sheng is chained up in? Edit: And the Glowline would be a byproduct of the human sacrifices that provide her with the power to keep Sheng and other minor inmates like Hofstaring Treeleaper contained. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Eff

[Qizilbashwoman]

21 minutes ago, Eff said:

It's also odd that it seems to have been utterly ineffectual at actually defeating Sheng. Yara Aranis spends a whole Wane preparing herself to challenge Sheng, loses, loses so badly that Kostaddi abandons the Lunar Way completely and Sheng ascends as a star the very next year, and then appears to be a total non-factor in the Battle of Kitor.

the entire point of Yara Aranis was to use Sheng's own magic against him, too!

*sigh*

Sheng is a player character

[g33k]

20 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Also, this brings up a whole nature vs. nurture vs. free will discussion.

Yes it does, very much so.

I hope there's never a full canonical resolution on this point (except that each table and/or Campaign should establish their own preferences... if they even care to do so!) .

 

20 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

One could argue that a one day old baby has no Runic ties, other than perhaps their +10% Storm for being born in Sartar etc...

Or one could argue that they may not have even that +10% at birth:  that may come from growing up enculturated in Sartar.

 

20 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

How do the parents or clan detect the Runic ties?  I don't see any spell to do that, nor would I particularly want one to exist.

They may very well not be able to detect them!

As suggested above, a Priestess (and/or Shaman) attending the birth may notice some Runes seem particularly relevant or impactful on the newborn.

And I think there was discussion of things like babies arriving delivered by Runic-aligned animals or spirits... you'd be pretty sure an infant-girl arriving on the back of a flying bull is destined for something Storm related!

Perhaps after that, the child may be a bit of an enigma, runes locked within their soul until Initiation-time, when things unfurl to grow...  I mean, you can observe (for example) that this girl is more adventurous and combative, and suspect she'll go for something Storm instead of Earth (though B.Gor is also possible), and that boy has a real talent on the farm, and maybe Barntar instead of Orlanth, etc etc etc; but it's all guess-based-on-behavior.

Mythically speaking, however, destinies (from birth & earlier, Chosen One's & Prophesied One's) are Definitely A Thing!

 

[scott-martin]

 

33 minutes ago, Eff said:

It's also odd that it seems to have been utterly ineffectual at actually defeating Sheng . . .  ascends as a star the very next year . . . perhaps Yara Aranis exists solely to provide the very specific Lunar Hell Sheng is chained up in?

There's probably a reading popular among apologists and quislings where he engineered the entire program in order to (a) finally get what he's always wanted, some time alone in a discipline he can't easily escape and (b) get us all addicted to Permanent Full in the meantime. I suspect the deep dualities are a tad more complicated but the IO is probably significant enough to chase. Along with that, it's interesting that this feels like the foundation of anti-seleran resistance for Vonlath and Naveria, i.e., this is how the Way survives in Silver Shadow whereas Dara Happa seems relatively happy to keep entertaining puppets and pretenders. The version of the Way that radiates back out from Glamour is set on Permanent Full.

But wait, I thought this was a trickster thread. OK.

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The Moon Rune represents magical power,

Parallel with that impulse to consolidate independent lunar influences, it strikes me that the early empire would have been extremely diligent in making independent magicians throughout the Pelorian bowl an offer they couldn't refuse. Some would convert willingly. Others, ultimately culminating in the Jannisorian revolt, were harder to convince. Either way, by hook or by crook the once diverse lore of the forerunner traditions got welded into what modern hipsters scoff at as the institutional College of Magic . . . or if they wouldn't play nice, the smart ones fled (go west it's nice) and the dumb ones departed from history.

The upside is that the converts' techniques and tutelary entities remain intact within what I until today considered the monolithic body of lunar magic. (You already knew that. I am slow.) And in theory we can unravel the body of lunar magic into its component strands to better understand its weaknesses as well as its strengths. 

Of course Argrath is doing something similar now, but four hundred years ago they knew the power of diverse and exotic weirdos. They had the example of the mothers describing their particular elephant (or "bat") if you will. But until you understand who the weirdos are and where they fit into the big scheme of things, it's just another rune you don't know, weird one-off tricks, wild talents, tricksters.

 

[Ian Absentia]

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

I wonder when and how Yara Aranis metastasizes into the science of Glow manipulation and the doctrine of Permanent Full. If only someone were brave enough to turn it off . . . but arguably the empire we have now would not survive the disruption, too much is built on Permanent Full.

"Everything was fine with our system until the power grid was shut off by dickless here."

!i!

Edited December 5, 2019 by Ian Absentia

[scott-martin]

2 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

"Everything was fine with our system until the power grid was shut off by dickless here."

Yeah, it's a sign all right! Going out of business!

Edited December 5, 2019 by scott-martin
ok i edit too

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

or if they wouldn't play nice, the smart ones fled (go west it's nice) and the dumb ones departed from history.

Probably why the City of 10,000 Magicians suddenly filled up!

4 hours ago, Eff said:

I'd be perfectly fine with discarding it for generally accepted Glorantha. It really doesn't make much sense, after all.

As am I - and this is really the direction that RQG has gone. The challenge/question is what it means to the person who is strongest in the Moon Rune, but is not Lunar? In Prax, you've got the Twin Stars to explore. In Kethaela, you might venture to God Forgot, or worship the Invisible God. But is there a path for you in Dragon Pass? Maybe you're just a weird outcast who ends up following shamanic traditions, or more likely join those who do not have an explicit elemental connection (e.g. LM, Issaries, Chalana Arroy, Humakt - actually a rather interesting list!).

4 hours ago, scott-martin said:

I suspect one of the things Jannisor Did that is now suppressed or ignored was to help codify the limits of Moon from outside, the points from which someone would consider the red light in the sky and say "that thing is not me, check your children for these signs." Maybe in Imther they have people really looking at the traces his martyrdom left behind.

Quite possible.

4 hours ago, scott-martin said:

But then despite the Guide I'm not convinced Jannisor died in Glamour.

Neither am I. I always liked the heretical idea that he became one of the Egi. 😉

[scott-martin]

4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Neither am I. I always liked the heretical idea that he became one of the Egi. 😉

Your heresies are our best case scenarios. Lolon will rise again!

As for the City, I don't think they'd let me in to ask around at this point and besides, once you check in you can never leave. Maybe we send some grogs.

[jajagappa]

35 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Lolon will rise again!

Oh, it's coming! 😉

37 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

once you check in you can never leave

That's just it, though. Should have stayed on the farm!

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

it is a little odd that an Empire that has the theology of the changing Moon would fix the phase permanently. phase locking is the kind of thing you do around borders as a protective wall, not through the entire Empire. it's a little bit solar corruption

It is the Nysalorean scheme of having a separate magical condition than the rest of the world all over again. Or the Dragon Dream that covered Kerofinela during the EWF.

The Glowline effect is the extension of the "natural" effect the Silver Shadow suffers/enjoys from the spill over the Crater Wall, creating the same magical influence of the moon as on the surface of the red orb above the Crater. The Reaching Moon extends this.

 

7 hours ago, Eff said:

It's also odd that it seems to have been utterly ineffectual at actually defeating Sheng.

The effect is to strengthen Lunar magic, not to weaken the mystical powers of the Zolathi. The horse eater works well enough against normal Pentans like e.g. the Opili tribe.

 

7 hours ago, Eff said:

Yara Aranis spends a whole Wane preparing herself to challenge Sheng, loses, loses so badly that Kostaddi abandons the Lunar Way completely

Cart before the horse, here - when Kostaddi defected, Yara Aranis returned from the moon to challenge Sheng, who had evidently prepared for her to leave her temple.

7 hours ago, Eff said:

and Sheng ascends as a star the very next year, and then appears to be a total non-factor in the Battle of Kitor... (Which appears to be Sheng invading Carmania rather than Magnificus reconquering Lunar territory.) Overall, the Seleran wars are fairly confusing. The Reaching Moon also seems to be a non-factor in the Nights of Horrors and the Redlands Revolt, for that matter.

There are few battles that were fought inside a functional Glowline - Grizzley Peak is the only one fought by the Sartarites, for instance. The earlier battles in support of Palashee were fought while the Reaching Moon temple in Tarsh was deactivated. The Nights of Horror were fought right outside of the Torang temple's circumference, presumably when the Palbar temple had already been deactivated.

7 hours ago, Eff said:

Perhaps Yara Aranis exists solely to provide the very specific Lunar Hell Sheng is chained up in? Edit: And the Glowline would be a byproduct of the human sacrifices that provide her with the power to keep Sheng and other minor inmates like Hofstaring Treeleaper contained. 

The Glowline predates the death of Sheng considerably. Her mother is the Goddess (or demon) of the Tormented Death, a prisoner for"outlaws, rebels and captured sylphs" (which sounds like a Hell designed for Gagarth cultists).

It isn't quite clear whether the Six-armed Goddess of Saird summoned against Sheng is the Goddess of the Tormented Death or her daughter Yara Aranis, or a version of both.

 

[davecake]

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

If a deity's position is based on selfish behavior at the cost of others, that is a sign of disorder.

Sure, but it's not the criteria for Disorder. Many deities have the Disorder rune, and Trickster is an important, but not the only, Disorder figure. What this has to do with culture defining heroes like Waha or Pamalt (who are the opposite of what you describe - heroes who act unselfishly to assist others) I have no idea.

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

I am not saying that worshipers of Yelm or Orlanth are tricksters.

Right. You are not saying White is Black, just sometimes White really is Dark Gray. 

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

I am saying that these gods have a Trickster aspect, and one that a Trickster cultist may have access to, somewhere.

There are clearly some connections here and there, but that doesn't mean that all gods who make meaningful change to the status quo have a Trickster aspect. Are they Disorder or Illusion powers? Then the Trickster can't access them through Trickster magic. Can he access them by other means? Sometimes, but there has to be an actual mechanism, like an obscure myth (or at an outrageous lie). Trickster can, for example, find a myth of stealing fire of course, but thats Trickster being Trickster, not Yelm being Trickster. 

Of course, the Trickster can access some of Orlanths power - they are associated cults. He gets Wind Words I think. But thats not the same as accessing a secret Trickster aspect or Orlanth.

18 hours ago, None said:

I don't consider tricksters to be pranksters (thats just silly) but I also don't consider trickstes to be some kind of completely insane humanoid natural disasters (be the scale large or miniscule) totally lacking in impulse control (thats equally silly).

They are two extremes. Both exist - the latter most likely someone weakly drafted into the ritual role trying to ritually build it up, the latter is actually a pretty good description of the 'Killer Boy the Destroyer' role, and requires the community to invest magic (and rage and hatred) in charging up the Trickster to be an insane destructive bundle of rage - its ritually turning a Trickster into a magical weapon. Neither are a normal Trickster, who normally lies somewhere in between. 

[davecake]

16 hours ago, Eff said:

Traditionally, a child discovered to be strong with Moon or Chaos (or presumably Hunger/Undeath, although that would be even rarer!) would be killed.

I don't think all children strong with the Moon rune are killed. They are just weird and awkward - and very much aggressively discouraged from magically following a Moon path god. But it is not even obvious that someone is strong with a rune if they don't magically develop it. It  may become clear only at initiation, by which stage it is too late to kill them. 

Chaos,  though - yes, they are killed if it is know. But it is not usually known.  The Coming Storm describes being initiated into the Chaos rune, it is obvious to the initiate but not to others. And once the initiate realises what they are, they are going to shut up about it.

[Qizilbashwoman]

25 minutes ago, davecake said:

I don't think all children strong with the Moon rune are killed. They are just weird and awkward - and very much aggressively discouraged from magically following a Moon path god. But it is not even obvious that someone is strong with a rune if they don't magically develop it. It  may become clear only at initiation, by which stage it is too late to kill them. 

Chaos,  though - yes, they are killed if it is know. But it is not usually known.  The Coming Storm describes being initiated into the Chaos rune, it is obvious to the initiate but not to others. And once the initiate realises what they are, they are going to shut up about it.

I thought it was Chaos rune at initiation, and Moon rune is deeply suspect and might be bundled off somewhere away from potential Lunar influence. Runes don't manifest until initiation; you have to choose the rune. This is explicit in the Red Cow issue with the Chaos rune, although in the case of the ogres they kill you themselves if you refuse it.