All about Tricksters

[soltakss]

3 minutes ago, Charles said:

Tricksters usually have little or no control over their impulses, emotions, body functions or magic. They are miserable and pathetic creatures except sometimes when they are transgressing.

If I played a Trickster, what I would do would be to make a list of all the personality Pairs and roll randomly on them when doing something. So, if I was confronted by a bear, I would roll against brave/Cowardly to see if I fought it or ran away; if I saw a merchant with a nice gem, I'd roll on Greedy to see if I stole it and so on. nothing I did would be determined by me, all by dice rolls. until I wanted to do something, then I wouldn't roll, for the hell of it.

[Sir_Godspeed]

57 minutes ago, soltakss said:

For some reason, I never saw the reason why we have Ga and Gata as Primal Earths, now it makes sense. Ga was The Earth Cube, with Gata and Yanmorla as mega-Land Goddesses, both with horny brothers. 

 

I'm not entirely sure that is how it's presented in the Sourcebook. In the genealogical chart there, Gata is shown at the crown with no precedents, mated with both Genert and Pamalt, which are also her self-begotten sons. 

This genealogy is, of course, of primarily God Learner origin, and is therefore not strictly exhaustive nor universal. 

The exact difference between Ga and Gata (and which one of those the Western Gat is analoguous to) is unclear, and personally I'm a bit skeptical to there being a significant difference. 

It's possible that what we are dealing with something similar to what the Sourcebook does with the Darkness genealogy chart. In there, they make a separation between Nakala (the primal Dark) and Dame Darkness, who is said to be Nakala when she is attending the Cosmic Court at the Spike. This strikes me as a fairly meaningless distinction except maybe to show that Dame Darkness has somewhat more of anthropomorphization* than Nakala. Similarly, it's possible that Ga represents the purely elemental, raw fullness of Earth, whereas Gata takes on some level of anthropomorphization* that allows it, amongst other things, to be a her, to devolve into differentiated forms (such as the Earth Kings, etc.).

(*mostly with regards to having some level of sentience, agency, etc., as opposed to being humanoid in any sense)

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Which, in itself, mandates this rule to be broken. 

And many of the Trickster entities are consistent most of the time. You won't find Raven swimming or deep underground, except when he became a victim of his own tricks and the myth gives you the opportunity to externalize one of your tricks by having him commit it for you as repayment for saving him.

Letting him drown may be rewarded positively, too...

Let's not give Trickster/Disorder all the credit here. Larnste is an important factor, and Change/Movement is its own power in this equation. (Although I'd imagine them frequently coexisting).

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

The Mad Sultanate are not broo. They were formed when a Lunar Army say the Crimson Bat for the first time, I believe, and went mad. They live in Dorastor, with the Mad Sultan leading them.

I believe the Sourcebook says that Sultan is a Pentan title, so wouldn't the army be Pentan rather than Lunar? I guess the army itself could be a wild mix, but the origin of the title stands (which is a bit bizarre, but I suspect someone fell in love with the title from the very early days when all the satrapies of the Lunar Empire where called Sultanates and they had to try to explain why this inexplicably medieval Arab title was in the middle of Mesopotamia-Persia-Rome, so whatever).

43 minutes ago, Eff said:

Depending on your game/story/personal vision of Glorantha, either 1) a divine vaginoplasty, complete with implanted uterus and ovaries (I think it's pretty well implied from various sources that the former, at least, is completely possible and so this is probably the most "accurate" answer if there ever were an official one), 2) the birth happens entirely on the Otherside via magic, 3) a phantom pregnancy that ends with an adorable giant snake/lizard coming into the stead with a bundled baby attached for delivery. (It could also potentially be a stork but I personally love the Ernalda/Earth connection with reptiles), 4) any/all of the above depending on the person.

 

I'd go with 1 or 2 myself, but if 3 occurs, and there's a bird involved, I guess it'd be a goose rather than a stork.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[None]

Wouldn't an Orlanthi getting a child from a bird have reason to consider the child cursed?

[Tindalos]

11 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

The exact difference between Ga and Gata (and which one of those the Western Gat is analoguous to) is unclear, and personally I'm a bit skeptical to there being a significant difference.

To muddle things further, Gata was the main earth goddess of Dawn Age Ralios with the added note of her being the mother of the local Orlanth equivalent.

 

17 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

It's possible that what we are dealing with something similar to what the Sourcebook does with the Darkness genealogy chart. In there, they make a separation between Nakala (the primal Dark) and Dame Darkness, who is said to be Nakala when she is attending the Cosmic Court at the Spike. This strikes me as a fairly meaningless distinction except maybe to show that Dame Darkness has somewhat more of anthropomorphization* than Nakala. Similarly, it's possible that Ga represents the purely elemental, raw fullness of Earth, whereas Gata takes on some level of anthropomorphization* that allows it, amongst other things, to be a her, to devolve into differentiated forms (such as the Earth Kings, etc.).

(*mostly with regards to having some level of sentience, agency, etc., as opposed to being humanoid in any sense)

I imagine that's the Zzaburite influenced view, with Nakala, Ga, etc. being the runes themselves, and Empress Earth, Sir Sea, etc. being the gods who embodied them as the cosmic court. (Especially as troll gods had the darkness genealogy chart copied from Zzabur's Blue Book)

 

[Eff]

6 minutes ago, None said:

Wouldn't an Orlanthi getting a child from a bird have reason to consider the child cursed?

Not if it's a Storm bird, like waterfowl (ducks, geese, swans) are! 

[None]

12 minutes ago, Eff said:

Not if it's a Storm bird, like waterfowl (ducks, geese, swans) are! 

That begs the question. What bird has the strongest Sky connection (and what would happen if one inexplicably carried a newborn to an Orlanthi family)?

Also, why must a trickster lack controll of themselves? I find that more than a little wierd.

[scott-martin]

8 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

It's possible that what we are dealing with something similar to what the Sourcebook does with the Darkness genealogy chart. In there, they make a separation between Nakala (the primal Dark) and Dame Darkness, who is said to be Nakala when she is attending the Cosmic Court at the Spike. This strikes me as a fairly meaningless distinction except maybe to show that Dame Darkness has somewhat more of anthropomorphization* than Nakala. Similarly, it's possible that Ga represents the purely elemental, raw fullness of Earth, whereas Gata takes on some level of anthropomorphization* that allows it, amongst other things, to be a her, to devolve into differentiated forms (such as the Earth Kings, etc.).

Yeah, these are etic models not necessarily reflecting any Gloranthan's in-group perspective. Ask ten trolls to distinguish between Nakala and Dame Dark and you're unlikely to get a lot of useful information. Ask ten dark-oriented humans and you might not get a lot of people who know (or, given secrecy standards, will admit to) "Nakala" as any name worth conjuring with. The insiders might recognize the broad symbolic economies though when you say it back to them. 

On the other hand, smart informants will insert the occasional blind lie into the narrative to lead you away from what they don't want you to know. And even the helpful ones don't necessarily parse your terminology the same way you do, so glitches multiply. The ideal type of a complete celestial court, for example, remains just out of reach.

29 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

It's possible that what we are dealing with something similar to what the Sourcebook does with the Darkness genealogy chart. In there, they make a separation between Nakala (the primal Dark) and Dame Darkness, who is said to be Nakala when she is attending the Cosmic Court at the Spike. This strikes me as a fairly meaningless distinction except maybe to show that Dame Darkness has somewhat more of anthropomorphization* than Nakala. Similarly, it's possible that Ga represents the purely elemental, raw fullness of Earth, whereas Gata takes on some level of anthropomorphization* that allows it, amongst other things, to be a her, to devolve into differentiated forms (such as the Earth Kings, etc.).

Assignments like trickster also bend when you get into a multi-cultural environment, with one culture's clever and innovative mastery or magic creating disorder for its unlucky neighbors. I don't see a lot of room for Larnste within the Plentonian Glorantay unless the concept of Change/Movement is latent in something like "Entertainment" or "Growth" as opposed to "Love." Interestingly they insert primal Sky/Fire in the tenth slot, presumably to replace but also embody what we have as Disorder. Some people distinguish between Change (good) and Disorder (less fun) and others don't. Elsewhere in Glorantha both might be missing and they'll talk about concepts like Luck.

--------------

Nandans definitely get babies. But I confess that out here I have a hard time distinguishing between a Nandan adept and an Ernaldan. Some babies have or get dads, some don't. Some are discovered like changelings in tree clefts, delivered in rites, sewn together as poppets (the gingerbread boy who terrorizes Dragon Pass may have gotten his start in this way), remain spirits because that's all they need, are implanted when a blonde and a brunette love each other very much, etc. I like the notion of Baby Carriers a lot. All of this teaches us new things about how Menena happens in the West and where she returns whenever the Brithini start needing babies. Of course I am not there so all of this may be a pleasant lie, Entertainment.

[Eff]

6 minutes ago, None said:

That begs the question. What bird has the strongest Sky connection (and what would happen if one inexplicably carried a newborn to an Orlanthi family)?

Also, why must a trickster lack controll of themselves? I find that more than a little wierd.

Hawks, eagles, and falcons are most closely associated with the Sky, or rather with the Sun. Thankfully, the Orlanthi do have acceptable ways to mediate the powers of the Sky within their society (Elmal, Yelmalio, Rigsdal the Night Watchman), but a child with those kind of Solar connections would probably be marked for something. Priests and god-talkers would probably try to make sure that that something takes the form of "cast out from the Sky people and so of course we'll take them in as the hospitable Storm people". They may or may not succeed. 

3 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Nandans definitely get babies. But I confess that out here I have a hard time distinguishing between a Nandan adept and an Ernaldan. Some babies have or get dads, some don't. Some are discovered like changelings in tree clefts, delivered in rites, sewn together as poppets (the gingerbread boy who terrorizes Dragon Pass may have gotten his start in this way), remain spirits because that's all they need, are implanted when a blonde and a brunette love each other very much, etc. I like the notion of Baby Carriers a lot. All of this teaches us new things about how Menena happens in the West and where she returns whenever the Brithini start needing babies. Of course I am not there so all of this may be a pleasant lie, Entertainment.

I endorse all of this. 

[Tindalos]

23 minutes ago, None said:

That begs the question. What bird has the strongest Sky connection (and what would happen if one inexplicably carried a newborn to an Orlanthi family)?

Also, why must a trickster lack controll of themselves? I find that more than a little wierd.

The Tunderbird.

And if they could control themselves, they wouldn't be tricksters.

[Sir_Godspeed]

12 minutes ago, Eff said:

Hawks, eagles, and falcons are most closely associated with the Sky, or rather with the Sun. Thankfully, the Orlanthi do have acceptable ways to mediate the powers of the Sky within their society (Elmal, Yelmalio, Rigsdal the Night Watchman), but a child with those kind of Solar connections would probably be marked for something. Priests and god-talkers would probably try to make sure that that something takes the form of "cast out from the Sky people and so of course we'll take them in as the hospitable Storm people". They may or may not succeed. 

 

There are Cloudhawks, and in Dragon Pass at least, hawks seem to be associated with storm, while eagles seem associated with Sun, and they appear to have a mutually hostile relation - at least according to the cloud lore in the Book of Heortling Mythology. 

Geese are sacred (although not forbidden to eat) in Esrolia in particular, being associated with Imarja, and being stand-ins for the Creatrix who formed Earth from Water, or arguably the formation of the Cosmos in its entirety.

[Charles]

30 minutes ago, None said:

Also, why must a trickster lack controll of themselves? I find that more than a little wierd.

My feeling is when most of us hear "Trickster" we think of of the far gentler "Prankster".

However that's _not_ the archetype Greg wrote of - a Trickster does these things because they have no choice.

When Greg spoke of being a Trickster Arkati Shaman, he meant that he was driven to investigate the myths more deeply and that caused him to destroy what some people loved - see the recent resurrection of the Yelmalio/Elmal wars for an example that was far more hurtful and divisive the first time around.  He told us that he was unable to not do it.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Charles

[Sir_Godspeed]

4 minutes ago, Charles said:

My feeling is when most of us hear "Trickster" we think of of the far gentler "Prankster".

 

That's true. Alternative terms that get across the darker side might be "Deceiver", "Violator", "Subverter", "Betrayer", etc. etc.

[Eff]

6 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

 

There are Cloudhawks, and in Dragon Pass at least, hawks seem to be associated with storm, while eagles seem associated with Sun, and they appear to have a mutually hostile relation - at least according to the cloud lore in the Book of Heortling Mythology. 

Geese are sacred (although not forbidden to eat) in Esrolia in particular, being associated with Imarja, and being stand-ins for the Creatrix who formed Earth from Water, or arguably the formation of the Cosmos in its entirety.

Oof, BoHM is one of the gaps in my Gloranthan knowledge. Interesting that the large birds of prey seem to be divided in that way. 

5 minutes ago, Charles said:

My feeling is when most of us hear "Trickster" we think of of the far gentler "Prankster".

However that's _not_ the archetype Greg wrote of - a Trickster does these things because they have no choice.

When Greg spoke of being a Trickster Arkati Shaman, he meant that he was driven to investigate the myths more deeply and that caused him to destroy what some people loved - see the recent resurrection of the Yelmalio/Elmal wars for an example that was far more hurtful and divisive the first time around.  He told us that he was unable to not do it.

Essentially, Trickster in Glorantha is much more a Loki or maybe Coyote figure than Reynard or Nanabozho or a "contrary". Violently self-destructive and only helpful because he's usually to blame in the first place. 

[Sir_Godspeed]

9 minutes ago, Eff said:

Oof, BoHM is one of the gaps in my Gloranthan knowledge. Interesting that the large birds of prey seem to be divided in that way. 

 

The Cloudhawks, like cloudcats are technically a (literal) type of cloud - however, the cloud lore tend to overlap with animal lore, so I as far as I remember the Storm-connection does apply to literal animal hawks in Dragon Pass as well. Unless, of course, Heortling Mythology is outdated or otherwise incorrect. 

Hawks are associated with Sky in other sources (Murharzarm receives a hawk for his muster, iirc), so I personally think there is a lot of room for regional/endemic variation here. Let's say the hawks in Dragon Pass (and possibly elsewhere) were... "adopted" from the Sky. The Storm Tribe is fond of that sort of thing, and it has precedence so why not.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, None said:

That begs the question. What bird has the strongest Sky connection (and what would happen if one inexplicably carried a newborn to an Orlanthi family)? ...

1. Sunhawk, maybe?  Also called "vrok" IIRC.

2. Horse, maybe?  --  In Glorantha, the "horse" is, mythologically, a kind of bird(!(wtf?!)), being descended from King Hippogriff via a series of tragic maimings.  (And isn't that a grand image:  a newborn infant arriving at the stead laying upon the broad back of a horse).

I think that ANY "ill-omened" child (arriving with strong & inborn Runic ties to Darkness, Sky, Disorder, etc) will (mostly) be given special attention as they grow, to try to inculcate loyalty despite their differences (also, any such "mythological" birth (e.g. arriving via some sort of messenger-beast, or in a reed basket from a river, etc) is likely to have some expectations that their adult selves will have a similarly-mythological destiny), or maybe fostered to an appropriate family (e.g. a Dark-Rune babe to a Dark Orlanthi tribe).

That's "mostly" getting special attention or fosterage...  Alternatively, IMHO, they may (occasionally) instead be left exposed to die (as per the Greco-Roman/Biblical/Mesopotamian/etc legends), somewhere out in the wilds.  Which happens will depend mostly on the local tribe's own habits & predilection, and/or their current state of travails.  I presume there are a few such fosterlings -- humans raised by Trolls, or by Beastfolk, or etc; likely to come back to humankind in dramatic and discomforting ways.

 

2 hours ago, None said:

... Also, why must a trickster lack controll of themselves? ...

I think it's the outward/physical manifestation of their inner lack of impulse-control: myths are big on inner realities manifesting outwardly (it's a kind of primitive POV... but then, Glorantha is a very primal & mythical kind of world).

As noted above, "Trickster" isn't a ha-ha-joke "prankster."  When Trickster acts, people can DIE from those pranks; whole tribes may die; the very Gods can die!  Trickster characters are dangerous, every bit as dangerous as Orlanth or Humakt characters... but with less restraint or discretion as to who suffers the danger.

And above all, Tricksters are a danger to themselves!

 

2 hours ago, None said:

... I find that more than a little wierd.

Welcome to Glorantha!

"More than a little weird" is the norm.  

Your Glorantha May (Will!) Vary.

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

4 hours ago, Eff said:

he was the one who killed the first Mask of the Red Emperor for the last time (along with the last Tarshite king of the original dynasty)

The Mad Sultan gets props for this: the original Red Emperor would just reincarnate because enlightened beings called Egi would reassemble him.

Somehow, the Mad Sultan killed him so hard the repercussions killed some of his Egi. Henceforce, he no longer could reincarnate fully, but needed a willing host to let the remaining Egi parasitise them and sew his remaining souls into their consciousness.

(Gloranthans appear to have seven souls; they at least have six, one for each of the basic runes, and the seventh is the "plus one".)

The side effect of this is the parasitised host - the Mask - retained their personality and will to a degree so nobles volunteered their offspring so the next Emperor would favor them.

[Eff]

2 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

The Mad Sultan gets props for this: the original Red Emperor would just reincarnate because enlightened beings called Egi would reassemble him.

Somehow, the Mad Sultan killed him so hard the repercussions killed some of his Egi. Henceforce, he no longer could reincarnate fully, but needed a willing host to let the remaining Egi parasitise them and sew his remaining souls into their consciousness.

(Gloranthans appear to have seven souls; they at least have six, one for each of the basic runes, and the seventh is the "plus one".)

The side effect of this is the parasitised host - the Mask - retained their personality and will to a degree so nobles volunteered their offspring so the next Emperor would favor them.

Well, I have my own theory, namely that the seventh soul is the representation of Chaos within the self. But it's also possible that it's seven as in one better than the completion of six elements and six forms, or seven as in one fewer than the eight powers and thus near-completion. Numerology is fun and frustrating, or, perhaps, funstrating. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

4 minutes ago, Eff said:

Well, I have my own theory, namely that the seventh soul is the representation of Chaos within the self. But it's also possible that it's seven as in one better than the completion of six elements and six forms, or seven as in one fewer than the eight powers and thus near-completion. Numerology is fun and frustrating, or, perhaps, funstrating. 

I have a similar theory.

This pairs with my "Jakaleel was not a human being, she was some variety of uz", because neither is much of a stretch. (The woman was a troll-spirit shaman from the Blue Moon Mountains who worshipped Zorak Zoran and she's portrayed as a human tall as other humans while sitting down with tusks next to texts that claim she was a human.)

Edited December 3, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[Bill the barbarian]

On 12/3/2019 at 11:25 AM, Qizilbashwoman said:

This pairs with my "Jakaleel was not a human being, she was some variety of uz", because neither is much of a stretch. (The woman was a troll-spirit shaman from the Blue Moon Mountains who worshipped Zorak Zoran

I thought that was canon. Been awhile since I read up on Jakaleel the witch. Was it in Troll Pak that she got written up.

[Charles]

49 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

How do the parents or clan detect the Runic ties?

During initiation, the magic of the ritual causes runes to be tattooed on the newly young adult. Whether that is self-tattooed, or by an elder wise in the ways of magic, or just magically appears is up to the GM and story. And whether the forms of the tattoos are actually truly inspired by the magic or are the choice of the tattooist is also story driven.

The pre-initiate and clan/family/social organisation should often have a good idea of their runic inclinations. Some especially strong children manifest magic early, which is often not appreciated by parents and clan. Or maybe the runes are drawn / finalised after the two years of mens' initiation, where the initiate works with a god-talker of the clan's choice then another year with a god-talker of their own choice.

If the elders notice unwanted runes, they may drive the young adult out or, in extremis (such as Chaos), even try to kill.

From my reading of one partial version of the Harmastsaga, there are clan tattooists, who are magically inspired to tattoo runes, including lineage runes that the tattooist does not necessarily recognise (so Kodig's lineage rune for Harmast, or the Sartar rune for an unknown scion of that house).

Edited December 5, 2019 by Charles

[jajagappa]

37 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

One could argue that a one day old baby has no Runic ties, other than perhaps their +10% Storm for being born in Sartar etc...

Or that their birthdate predisposes them towards certain Runes, though perhaps as they grow they reject one or more of these for their opposite...

I'd say that the clan's Earth priestess comes to bless the newborn (perhaps along with those who can see those spirits who came to attend the birth - from conversations I had with Greg many years ago, at least for some individuals there are often 3 spirits present at the birth with those destined for greater things being attended by more powerful spirits, or even gods). The priestess likely reads the omens about the child. She will consider the day, week, and season, and likely whether it falls upon the holy day of some god or spirit. If the parents offer an animal to the priestess, she may sacrifice it to read the omens in its entrails. Or she may use other means such as the movement of a snake or the visions in a drug-induced trance or what she notices while meditating. These means may identify the 3-5 Runes the clan expects to be most prominent.

The child's personality may be shaped by these, or perhaps it runs contrary to one or more. It'll be during initiation where I think they'll really manifest. Undoubtedly the clan elders and priests will ask many questions of the now-initiated young adult and look for the signs or omens that portend which Runes have become most pronounced. 

[Bill the barbarian]

2 hours ago, Charles said:

During initiation, the magic of the ritual causes runes to be tattooed on the newly young adult. Whether that is self-tattooed, or by an elder wise in the ways of magic, or just magically appears is up to the GM and story. And whether the forms of the tattoos are actually truly inspired by the magic or are the choice of the tattooist is also story driven.

 

For example here is one way to view it... Form the mind of Jeff Richards and the pens of Kalin Kadiev.

Image 1: no tats,

image 2: getting tats

Image 3: all tatted up...

Oh and never mind the tats, google (Of course I prefer Duck, Duck, Go) Prince of Sartar and start reading....]

Below, a youth about to undergo an initiateship and  has been taken to a holy place by nis “uncles" and undergoes a series of heroquest to become an adult."

Image 1:

Image 2

Image 3

 

 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Charles]

Which method does each player prefer?

What story do they want to tell?

Do some of them feel this is all too onerous, please just roll it?

Maybe each character can have a different experience that best suits the preferences of the palyer

[Bill the barbarian]

Welll, what Charles says, I will just have to give you the same answer he already has. This is the reason I gave you the answer I did.

Quote

For example here is one way to view it...

The boys that built Glorantha have always left a bit of wiggle room. You decide. How do you want it to be, It is a hallucinatory experience after all with or with out drugs, so really the truth of the situation is a lot more existential than that. Or the only truth is the myths you walk away with as well as the fact that them tatties is pretty real. 

Cheers

[davecake]

On 12/3/2019 at 4:51 PM, Joerg said:

Any big change, the Trickster is there

and

On 12/3/2019 at 4:51 PM, Joerg said:

Being "clever" is disruptive. So is innovation.

If you want to go with a definition of Trickster that is so broad that all deities who do something clever and disruptive to change society once are Tricksters, so broad that (say) Orlanth or Waha or Hrestol or the Emperor Mikaday, even though after they did the tricky thing that disrupted society they became culture heroes that defined the normal cultural values of big swathes of Glorantha, then you are effectively redefining the term Trickster to became roughly meaningless, a personal and confusing use of the term that has little to do with the discussion the rest of us are having. Change is not Disorder, Disorder is not necessarily Change. Real change is almost by definition no Illusory (though Illusion may make it appear so).  The gods that define the right way to do things (culturally) can't be the same as Trickster, who in many ways is there to demonstrate the wrong way.