All about Tricksters

[davecake]

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

Prior to the Windstop, the Pelaskites of Kethaela may have been a lot more open to the moon rune than their Orlanthi neighbors.

Why prior to the Windstop? The Blue Moon isn't the Red, the Blue is the primary tidal power. It has connections to Water that are important to the Pelaskites and the Left Arm Islands. But not as important as Water. 

 

10 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

it is a little odd that an Empire that has the theology of the changing Moon would fix the phase permanently. phase locking is the kind of thing you do around borders as a protective wall, not through the entire Empire. it's a little bit solar corruption

The process of her creation is mostly from non-Lunar myth, isn't it? She is the daughter of Gorgorma and the Red Emperor, and Gorgorma has fairly little to do with Lunar myth (though the Red Emperor is probably doing sneaky Lunar magic tricks, like invoking the Dark Moon to be his own Shadow).

I like the idea that it is a subtle Solar corruption a lot - or even Spolite. The Empire must be destroyed for the Moon to travel the true Moon path. 

9 hours ago, Eff said:

It's also odd that it seems to have been utterly ineffectual at actually defeating Sheng.

I wouldn't have quite said she was useless. She does get a quarter of his followers to desert in 1405. And after Sheng is imprisoned the nomad decline is swift. But she certainly can't defeat Sheng as easily as the Red Emperor hoped. I think her effect is to invoke Lunar and Darkness powers so that Sheng can't succeed in becoming the true Solar Emperor - otherwise, I don't think it would have been just Kostaddi that defected. 

9 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

the entire point of Yara Aranis was to use Sheng's own magic against him, too!

I wouldn't have quite put it like that, but it is something like her being an attempt to turn Sheng's assumption of ancient Solar powers into a way to force him to adopt ancient Solar weaknesses. It kind of marks a point where the Red Emperor stops trying to fight Sheng as duelling Solar Emperors (a game Sheng is winning, and continues to slowly win) and starts using deeper Lunar connections Sheng does not have access to as the core of his strategy. 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The effect is to strengthen Lunar magic, not to weaken the mystical powers of the Zolathi.

I think the Zolathi are used primarily as a tool to prise the Solar powers away from the Red Emperor and back to Sheng, who magically is reviving the ancient Horse Emperors. Sheng's overt power is all about Pentan Solar magic - the Zolathi are a subtler instrument (as most Mystic magic). And that tactic keeps working for a while, while the Red Emperor has to fall back on Lunar and Carmanian powers that are less overtly powerful but eventually prevail. 

9 hours ago, Eff said:

Perhaps Yara Aranis exists solely to provide the very specific Lunar Hell Sheng is chained up in? Edit: And the Glowline would be a byproduct of the human sacrifices that provide her with the power to keep Sheng and other minor inmates like Hofstaring Treeleaper contained. 

I think the sacrifices to her are definitely connected to the power of the Glowline. Not a byproduct but a piece of magical engineering - the Lunar Hell and the suffering of those within powers the Glowline, and this a deliberate Lunar magical act to regain some of Darkness powers used by eg the Spolite Empire and make a Lunarised version for Imperial purposes. 

 

 

[Ali the Helering]

I always assumed that a trickster aspect for Yelm would be called Roflmao🤪

[davecake]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I thought it was Chaos rune at initiation, and Moon rune is deeply suspect and might be bundled off somewhere away from potential Lunar influence. Runes don't manifest until initiation; you have to choose the rune. This is explicit in the Red Cow issue with the Chaos rune, although in the case of the ogres they kill you themselves if you refuse it.

Yes, that is how it works for the Chaos rune. Of course, most clans aren't cursed with ogres the way the Red Cow are, but there can be other issues that cause similar problems.

The Moon would be suspect if it was known, but it's not usually known unless it magically manifests, which usually doesn't happen unless there is a Lunar cult to join. You are just a bit weird and awkward. I suspect most such young initiates in Orlanthi society just join a non-elemental cult. A Rune that isn't magically used is just an aspect of the personality, and while you might get a few raised eyebrows a Humakti or sage or trader is going to be treated much the same regardless of what elemental rune they have (though obviously Storm is handier for Lightbringers, concentrating on the core powers of your cult is more common than otherwise so its not essential). And the Moon rune does mean you are more magical, which is hardly going to be considered bad. 

Plus in Argrath's Sartar, such people might gravitate to being a warlock. 

[Bill the barbarian]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Yes, that is how it works for the Chaos rune. Of course, most clans aren't cursed with ogres the way the Red Cow are, but there can be other issues that cause similar problems.

Way too late to fix now but in future

Spoilers would be ever so nice community.  that is supposed to be a hidden plot line in the game... and folk are still paying good money for the the two modules for which this is relevant.

[None]

21 hours ago, Eff said:

Traditionally, a child discovered to be strong with Moon or Chaos (or presumably Hunger/Undeath, although that would be even rarer!) would be killed. Pro-Lunar clans probably didn't do this under the occupation for Moon children, though. 

Hunger/Undeath? I though it was only called the Undeath Rune.

5 hours ago, davecake said:

Chaos,  though - yes, they are killed if it is know. But it is not usually known.  The Coming Storm describes being initiated into the Chaos rune, it is obvious to the initiate but not to others. And once the initiate realises what they are, they are going to shut up about it.

Actually, could someone explain the Chaos and Hunger Undeath/Runes, being born with them and initiated into them?

Are any of those counted as elemental runes? (Because if they are I suddenly have the urge to someday use a trickster with the Chaos Rune as an elemental rune.)

 

17 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I'm not sure that this would be the case.  The Moon Rune represents magical power, not necessarily Chaos.  It's the Red Moon that has the chaos taint.  Might they be suspect? Probably to the same degree as someone with the Illusion Rune.

I think the problem stem from Sedenya's conflict with Orlanth (and the Orlanthi's conflict with the Lunar Empire).

 

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

It is the Nysalorean scheme of having a separate magical condition than the rest of the world all over again. Or the Dragon Dream that covered Kerofinela during the EWF.

What was the Dragon Dream? I've heard it referenced a few times but have (almost) no idea what it actually was or did.

 

5 hours ago, davecake said:

the latter is actually a pretty good description of the 'Killer Boy the Destroyer' role, and requires the community to invest magic (and rage and hatred) in charging up the Trickster to be an insane destructive bundle of rage

That sounds ... dangerous, and worrisome.

 

4 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I thought it was Chaos rune at initiation, and Moon rune is deeply suspect and might be bundled off somewhere away from potential Lunar influence.

I remeber that the Moon Rune can be converted into the Chaos Rune. Also, how isthe Moon Rune associated with being more magical? What about the Magic Rune?

[Eff]

6 minutes ago, None said:

Hunger/Undeath? I though it was only called the Undeath Rune.

Actually, could someone explain the Chaos and Hunger Undeath/Runes, being born with them and initiated into them?

Are any of those counted as elemental runes? (Because if they are I suddenly have the urge to someday use a trickster with the Chaos Rune as an elemental rune.)

 

I remeber that the Moon Rune can be converted into the Chaos Rune. Also, how isthe Moon Rune associated with being more magical? What about the Magic Rune?

It's officially called the Hunger Rune now, I think? And the main reason for that is that Zorak Zorani zombies and Ezel's army of the Esrolian dead aren't Chaotic where vampires and ghouls are. So there's "undead" things which are an acceptable part of the universe, but the "Undeath" Rune is a blasphemous warping of Life and Death and so it's renamed to express the hunger for blood/braaaains bad-undead have. 

Chaos can be used as an Elemental Rune, but Chaos can be used as any category of Rune. Usually, though, IMO the typical Chaos cultist is using it as a Condition, because drawing on Chaos as a Form or Element is a good way to start dissolving into gorp, and drawing on it as a Power, well... *points to vampires*. 

 

Any Rune can be used for Chaotic purposes, but the Lunar Way will eventually teach you specifically how to draw upon your Moon Rune for that. 

The Magic Rune is a symbol of the communication between worlds. The Moon Rune is associated with balance and reconciliation between opposites. So by having a prominent Moon Rune in your makeup, you're already naturally inclined to be balanced between your Otherside self and your material self. You're also going to have an easier time learning diverse magic because you're prepared somewhat for the process of reconciling contradictory things. 

The Moon Rune is also associated with insanity, but one of the key principles of magic is Glorantha is that it's not a sane or rational thing if you're doing something impressive enough. To heroform, you need to convince yourself completely that you really are the incarnated god or hero, so completely that no one can tell you otherwise until you're ready. To gain spirit allies as a shaman, you need to convince them and yourself that you are a worthy and equal partner, or successfully beat them up, which quickly becomes an asinine notion from a rational perspective. What, you, a brief ephemeral mortal, can truly be equal enough to Oakfed or the White Princess to gain one of their close attendants as an ally? And sorcery is all about outright commanding the Otherside to obey you, down to the point of declaring that you sit above gods as far as authority goes if you've got the chops for it. 

And of course, mysticism is entirely about discarding rational processes in order to achieve deep insights about the nature of reality. 

Now, ordinarily you would have several competing powers of the Moon that would help split these great powers down into something understandable for pitiful mortals just starting out. Instead, you've got Sedenya, and understanding her all at once will snap you like a twig, and then you have Annilla and Octamo and Artmal as much lesser but slightly more comprehensible Moon deities- at least right up until Sedenya waltzes on in and proves she's all of them, too.

[None]

2 minutes ago, Eff said:

Chaos can be used as an Elemental Rune, but Chaos can be used as any category of Rune. Usually, though, IMO the typical Chaos cultist is using it as a Condition, because drawing on Chaos as a Form or Element is a good way to start dissolving into gorp, and drawing on it as a Power, well... *points to vampires*. 

So runes work differently depending on how they're used, only most runescan only be used in one way?

Mind explaining the differences between an Elemental, Condition, Form and Power Runes and how they work differently?

 

 Actually, while we're still talking about runes and not about tricksters (maybe chaos cultis stricksters to at least stay close to topic) mind telling me if you can have the Magic or Infinity Rune as a rune and what ou ccan do with them?

[Eff]

Just now, None said:

So runes work differently depending on how they're used, only most runescan only be used in one way?

Mind explaining the differences between an Elemental, Condition, Form and Power Runes and how they work differently?

 

 Actually, while we're still talking about runes and not about tricksters (maybe chaos cultis stricksters to at least stay close to topic) mind telling me if you can have the Magic or Infinity Rune as a rune and what ou ccan do with them?

An Element Rune is a kind of physical substance. A Form Rune is a kind of shape you can be in. A Power Rune represents one of the basic opposing forces whose conflicts define the universe. A Condition Rune is any other fundamental force or entity, but technically they're Runes which only exist as modifications of other runes (so the sub-elemental rune of Light is on the Condition tree in the Guide to Glorantha). The differences between them are mostly relevant to sorcerers, because spirits and theists aren't directly fiddling with the Runes, they're fiddling with things that emerged from the Runes. So, say, using the Command technique on the Fire Rune allows you to order around the kinds of material phenomena, like fires, which emerge from that Rune, while using the Command technique on the Beast Rune allows you to order around the kinds of beings that have the Form of the Beast Rune (animals), and using the Command technique on the Motion Rune allows you to order around the processes of change and motion in the world, and using the Command technique on the Communication Rune allows you to order around the power of communication and interaction between different people. 

Or, in practical terms, you would have spells for cooking safely over a guttering fire, spells for driving livestock, spells for keeping your wagon's axle running smooth, and spells for understanding the thick Safelstran accent of the trader. 

 

I don't know so much about what the Magic Rune does for you if you've developed it. The Infinity Rune, though, signifies that you've contacted the infinite if you're manifesting it obviously. Everyone that's a capital-h Hero has the Infinity Rune. That's a passive thing, it's a signifier that you've become part of the world outside Time. 

Using it actively, well... the description is that you can totally control energy flows in an area and magic only works on you if you want it to. The best way to describe this is via the Battle of Pennel Ford. Harrek charges across the front of the Lunar line in order to find Greymane and beat him to death. The Lunar army has their Yelm priests bombard him with every Sunspear they've got. When the light fades, Harrek has merely had his armor melted and is substantially angrier, and then a few moments later every Yelm priest in Kethaela and Dragon Pass has their head explode. That's what Infinity can do for you- it can allow you to shrug off the wrath of the Sun and turn it back on those who delivered it to you. 

Harrek, Jar-Eel, Androgeus, and a handful of others are some of the only people who can use Infinity to that extent, though. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Way too late to fix now but in future

Spoilers would be ever so nice community.  that is supposed to be a hidden plot line in the game... and folk are still paying good money for the the two modules for which this is relevant.

the active struggle of the Tormakting lineage against ogres in their midst is given during Red Cow character generation, this isn't a secret

1 hour ago, None said:

Mind explaining the differences between an Elemental, Condition, Form and Power Runes and how they work differently?

this is given in the rulesets, for example Runequest Glorantha page 227 and described from 47+, but your adventurer will have a Person rune, also called "Man rune"; in Runequest they also have a minor element of Beast, this is a Form rune. This defines you as a mortal: Spirits have a Spirit rune instead of a Person rune. (Elves are Person/Plant in RQG.)

Element runes are fire, wind, darkness, earth, water, moon and are indicative of your personality. They are associated with cultures - Orlanthi Storm (wind) is approximately what we call men (approximately! Glorantha humans are not the same as us) and Orlanthi Earth is for women, while in the North, in Dara Happa, Earth is women but fire (sun) is for Men and Storm is disliked.

People also have a second Form rune: these are paired opposites: Harmony/Disorder, Stasis/Movement, Fertility/Death, etc. Death is warrior cults and the Underworld, while Fertility is ... well, agriculture, birth, growth, sex. Note that a human being's Person/Beast runes are opposites. Once these two were the same, just like once there was no difference between life and death. There are still tribes where the Beast rune is strong - these are groups like the Telmori, who are werewolves, or the durulz, who are people who are ducks. (They play an important role controlling the Hunger-rune undead in Dragon Pass for some reason.)

The third rune type you see is Condition. Orlanth, king of the Storm tribe, has the three runes STORM, MOVEMENT, MASTERY. Mastery looks like a mountain range or a W, Chinese 山, I think it's a crown. This rune is the rune of heroes and kings. @Eff mentioned the Infinity rune, which is the Rune of Heroes with a capital H - that's someone who has learned to harrow hell, who when killed can (try to) find her way back to the living world and appear hale and healthy again.

Perhaps the most (in)famous Hero is Arkat, who died like seven times in his struggle against Nysalor. He returned again and again from various hells despite being mortal.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, None said:

What was the Dragon Dream? I've heard it referenced a few times but have (almost) no idea what it actually was or did.

While some people claim in hindsight that the EWF was a huge trick, the Dragon Dream was a magical effect that took place during the EWF and which altered reality in Kerofinela into a somewhat surreal draconic environment, with geographical features, livestock and even grain taking on draconic aspects and appearance.

This effect appears to have been created by common activities of the EWF humans and the dragonewts of the region.

What it actually was or did is shrouded in mystery. Those who knew enough about it were terminated in 1042 in a mass utuma that transcended the magic of that project into something draconic that we don't know about. From one day to another, the Dragon's Dream was over, all the stuff affected to it returned to a normal world, and many of the draconic forms ceased to be viable and rotted away.

Into this collapse of their magic and economy and bereft of all leaders, the common folk in the EWF became the victim of a joint Carmanian/Dara Happan/Sairdite raid and lost all of the financial means to buy replacement for the food shortage, and their libraries were raided or burnt down. This way, even secondary information on the EWF had become scarce.

Little has been published, there are some remarks on the EWF in King of Sartar, there is a travelogue about the cities of the dragonfriends in Missing Lands which probably gives the most coherent contemporary description, and there is some more info in History of the Heortling Peoples and Heortling Mythology. Revealed Mythologies has a few sentences on Godunya meddling with the EWF.

One big dragon project was the huge dragon that was to be awakened, with the Oslir providing its spine, the Rockwoods its wings and Choralinthor Bay its maw, the Vent its nostril... Before Greg wrote about Obduran the Flyer, this appears to have been one of the most prominent things that were known about the EWF, along with the story that "God Learners" recovered the secret of Auld Wyrmish near Nochet in 573 or so (on and a half centuries before the God Learners incorporated in Jrustela), and that Vistikos Left-eye started exploring draconic wisdom with his Hunting and Waltzing Bands, an ecstatic movement.

The MRQ1 version of the EWF was written with just this information in mind... and failed to grasp what happened in the EWF, or what the Third Council had to do with the ring of Orlanthland. MRQ2 did some rewriting, but while the EWF-related stuff written by LOZ was true to the full set of EWF info provided by Greg, too much based on the very limited EWF info above had gone astray and permeated the other products of the Second Age Glorantha line. Coupled with very disappointing skeletal constructs as result of the Flesh Machine (ironic, isn't it?), too much was at best Gloranthish rather than Gloranthan, so I wouldn't advise anyone to read up on the Dragon Dream in the MRQ stuff even though it is set in that period.

 

To pick up on the thread title again, every experiment that was overcome by resistance will be branded as "evil" and "a trick".

Should the Lunar project to overcome Orlanth succeed, I bet a spare copy of RQ3 Sun County that scholars will write about how Orlanth was nothing but a fraud and an evil trickster.

Likewise, should there come a more humane supreme sun god, then the aspect Yelm will be branded as an evil trickster who usurped the role of the sun, much like the Dara Happans blame Kargzant and the later Jenarong emperors as bad. "Son of Evil", anyone?

Same thing for the Doraddi version of Pamalt once the Veldt has been re-forested. "A trickster impersonating our Earth King!" Or vice versa about the Aldryami version once the last aldryami jungle has been taken down north of the Fense. For the time being, both versions are worshiped and grant magic, much like the draconic and the non-/anti-draconic versions of Orlanth did during the EWF.

For another example: The Brithini view Malkion the Sacrifice as a Trickster.

[Bill the barbarian]

3 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

the active struggle of the Tormakting lineage against ogres in their midst is given during Red Cow character generation, this isn't a secret

 

Not anymore...

[Joerg]

11 hours ago, davecake said:

There are clearly some connections here and there, but that doesn't mean that all gods who make meaningful change to the status quo have a Trickster aspect.

There are very few changes to the status quo that came without causing disorder - the formation of the Unity Council is about the only one I can think of from the cuff. Even the Lightbringer missionaries caused Disorder when they arrived in Entruliland or north of Saird.

 

Quote

Are they Disorder or Illusion powers? Then the Trickster can't access them through Trickster magic.

Eurmal is the Trickster who has a command over Illusion, forever tainting that rune, but that's a very special exception IMO. The original Trickster is Ratslaff, the Celestial Court's Duke of Disorder.

Raven has Darkness magic. Hyaena may have Death Magic or even Harmony Magic instead.

 

Quote

Can he access them by other means? Sometimes, but there has to be an actual mechanism, like an obscure myth (or at an outrageous lie). Trickster can, for example, find a myth of stealing fire of course, but thats Trickster being Trickster, not Yelm being Trickster. 

A trick is a trick. That's disorder.

Pamalt tricked the Artmali (who were admittedly acting as assholes at the time). His defense against Desero's Horde (which was repeated by Hon Hoolbiktu against the Six-Legged Empire) was a worthy feat of Disorder, too, at least in my book. And the masterpiece of creating the Necklace which counteracted the destruction of his allies was played on Chaos, which makes it an upstanding action. Yet a use of a trick.

Pamalt is notoriously dishonest. He tricked the sun god (Kendamalar?) to cooperating with Nyanka in order to create the Agimori by dishonest means. Or rather, in disorder.

A change doesn't have to be a trick.

 

Temporary reality may feel like a trick, and can be used as such, but there is nothing negative to it except that it may fade away. Illusion is a necessary part of the cosmos.

I still think that Eurmal should be the heir of Disorder, with Illusion as his personal gift, and Donandar the heir of Illusion.

[scott-martin]

55 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Pamalt is notoriously dishonest. He tricked the sun god (Kendamalar?) to cooperating with Nyanka in order to create the Agimori by dishonest means. Or rather, in disorder.

Nice. Day to day the bolongo (as opposed to the historical Bolongo who went north across the mountains and sent the results down to bother people) is also just a mask anyone theoretically has access to. Want something and don't have any legitimate routes? The bolongo will get it for you and then the bolongo will get blamed. Punish the bolongo and enjoy your thing.

Consequently, he fulfilled his role as empty Bolongo

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Temporary reality may feel like a trick, and can be used as such, but there is nothing negative to it except that it may fade away. Illusion is a necessary part of the cosmos.

Just to be especially obnoxious in the trickster thread I might say that illusion is a necessary part of consciousness and the fact that we will disagree (Our Gloranthas Will Vary) about how that relates to the cosmos is why disorder is immortal.

[Sir_Godspeed]

6 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Just to be especially obnoxious in the trickster thread I might say that illusion is a necessary part of consciousness and the fact that we will disagree (Our Gloranthas Will Vary) about how that relates to the cosmos is why disorder is immortal.

RIP Truth.

[None]

On 12/6/2019 at 3:25 PM, Joerg said:

While some people claim in hindsight that the EWF was a huge trick

 

On 12/6/2019 at 3:25 PM, Joerg said:

To pick up on the thread title again, every experiment that was overcome by resistance will be branded as "evil" and "a trick".

Yeah, we have diverged from the thread tittle a bit much. Several of the resent posts, while interesting, would belong better under an 'All abot Runes' thread.

So , in order to bring us back to topic. You've mentioed to varations on tricksters (as well as other trickstercults beside Eurmal).

• Killer Boy the Destroyer
• Eurmal Friend of Men

As for cults ( I might have forgotten one or two, I don't have the time to check currently):

• Raven
• Hyena
• and Eurmal himself

What other variations of tricksters and what other cults exist.

Also, creating a killer boy sounds dangerous and like it would use up your trickster. Isn't that a really drastic step to take?

Furthermore, we've only talked about Human (and Broo) tricksters. Don't the Elder Races have any?

 

edit: I almost forgot, what is it a trickster can do? Is it really anything goes?

The only concrete examples I can think of that i know of is: (incorrect I got it messed up in my memory.)

• Transforming into a more perfect horse than is possible (even though you're just wearing a cheap disguice like the one in King of Dragon Pass).
• Eating things larger than yourself (potentially out-eating a troll).
• Pushing yourself through a tiny hole one (literally) disconected finger, nose and other body part at a time.

Edited December 8, 2019 by None

[Joerg]

I recall seeing a list of the trickster aspects worshiped in the Slontos temple: Missing Lands p.35:

 

Quote

 

TRICKSTERS STUDIED AT THE COLLEGE

Here are the names of some of the gods, goddesses and spirits studied at the Trickster College in Slontos:

• Denbro the Almighty, a god in the East Isles whose population is 222 people;
• Karo, of the Kumanku Isles, said to be the placenta of Borvanchu, their ruling deity;
• Fenesmalakarachut, “the feces of the Evil Elephant,” known in southern Kralorela
• Orkantanth, a court jester in Teshnos pantheon
• Veristchan, a largely benevolent fool in Kralorela who severally saves his rulers from ridicule by taking their errors onto himself
• Molobanamakur, a demonic imp of Prax
• Niti Fer a Waha, a demonic imp of Pent
• Vor Faraga Zel, an antigod of the East Isles who eats people and mermen
• Dovan, a shapechanger of Silver Age Maniria and Slontos
• Takormungar, a malicious denizen of the Elf Woods of Fronela
• Za, a shapechanger of Laskal and Fonrit who lives underwater and eats people
• Pu, an ineffectual, comic figure of the Rathori with gas problems
• Shakastor, a spirit of Ralios who, when defeated, falls into pieces that scatter in all directions
• Serelemborastabu, of Kralorela, who takes male or female shapes to seduce humans, and then gives birth to their evil twin; probably the same as
• Zormastag, of Teshnos, who takes male or female shapes to seduce humans, and then gives birth to their evil twin
• ]ek, of Saird and Talastar, who combines parts of dead animals and vitalizes them to be evil monsters
• Hechantaur, a gambler of Pamaltela who enslaves people but treats them well
• Verenilip of Rion (of Danmalastan) who was made from the Devil’s shadow and whispers evil ideas into the ears of Malkioni

 

Not that this answers any of @None's question in a useful way (as is appropriate in a Trickster thread).

 

Both the Aldryami and the Mostali have an entire subspecies of Tricksters - the sprites, and the gremlins. (And gobblers, too - how could I forget about these?)

No idea about the Triolini - too little has been written about them.

Edited December 7, 2019 by Joerg

[Bill the barbarian]

Just now, Joerg said:

Both the Aldryami and the Mostali have an entire subspecies of Tricksters - the sprites, and the gremlins. No idea about the Triolini - too little has been written about them.

Oh why do I keep running out of likes....

cool!

[Tindalos]

39 minutes ago, None said:

What other variations of tricksters and what other cults exist.

Often an aspect/subcult of the trickster is given as just "what trick they played there." So you have subcults of the Dismembere(d/r), Fire/Lightbringer, Seducer, Thief, Murderer.

[Gallowglass]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

No idea about the Triolini - too little has been written about them

Is there a god or spirit associated with the octopus? I feel like that would be a prime candidate for “Trickster of the Sea.” Just google the mimic octopus and you’ll see what I mean.

[Bill the barbarian]

42 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Regarding the dangerous high Moon Rune idea some have broached, Vasana (the pre-gen RQG character) has 50% Moon, and I see no hints that she is under double secret probation.

That might require the obscure runes; Tau, Chi and of course Delta

 

The reason I have seen for the moon rune is given as....

Quote

Vasana takes the Air Rune at 60%—she wants to be a member of the Orlanth cult. But she decides to create some tension in her adventurer and takes the Moon Rune at 40%.

Page 49 of the RQ RiG

Which would affect her personally by

Quote

To have a strong affinity with the Moon Rune is to seek spiritual liberation from the bondage of fear and ignorance.

same page in the RQ RiG

Edited December 7, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Sir_Godspeed]

5 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

Is there a god or spirit associated with the octopus? I feel like that would be a prime candidate for “Trickster of the Sea.” Just google the mimic octopus and you’ll see what I mean.

I'd imagine Gloranthan octopodes would be associated with Magasta (although actually descended from Triolina, which all mortal sea life is), and so therefore decidedly un-comical beings. Just my take.

[Sir_Godspeed]

12 hours ago, Joerg said:

• Karo, of the Kumanku Isles, said to be the placenta of Borvanchu, their ruling deity;

Placentas are often given significant roles in myths and folklore. In one monograph I read on a group called the Chewong of Malayisia, the placenta was considered to be a kind of mirror-twin, and would have to be hidden away so that it could return to the spirit-world, or else it would try to make the newborn sick and kill it. 

This belief is, of all places, shared in a variant of the Norwegian "utburd" (Swedish: myling), which is the undead version of either a child put out to die (usually one born out of wedlock, but in either case unbaptised). In some cases it was the placenta, and not the child itself that would become the revenant, and from then on prey on travelers, but using an infant's cry to lure them in before pouncing on them and growing in size and weight until they were crushed. 

 And then we have the parallel with Orlanth, who while not associated with Eurmal in terms of birth or anything, does keep him along as kind of a "shado", kept by the umbilical of oath. 

Perhaps Borvanchu similarly has some commanding power over his Placental Trickster. Impossible to tell - but food for thought. 

12 hours ago, None said:

• Eating things larger than yourself (potentially out-eating a troll).

Reminds me of this Norwegian fairytale (complete with the OG troll, of course:)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boy_Who_Had_an_Eating_Match_with_a_Troll

Bonus: while by far not the most grotesque illustration of a troll out there, check out this drawing by Theodor Kittelsen. IMHO he's uniquely captured the, uh.... predatory nature of the troll here. Less a fantastic creature, and more a terrifying, larger, stronger man with gleefully malevolent intentions. I'd imagine a young Heortling shepherd seeing a hungry Dark Troll would be similarly terrified. Sometimes less is more in horror. 

[Joerg]

Just now, Sir_Godspeed said:

I'd imagine Gloranthan octopodes would be associated with Magasta (although actually descended from Triolina, which all mortal sea life is), and so therefore decidedly un-comical beings. Just my take.

There is the Kraken, champion of the Sea forces, in Sandy's Gods War, and fought by Harrek in Prince of Sartar.

The Jrusteli systematic may have placed cephalopods as mollusks (darkness animals) or as sea-spawn. If sea-spawn, they could be descended from Tholaina (daughter of Triolina) or from Varchulanga. The Kraken (singular) mentioned above is a spawn of Varchulanga and presumably Drospoly.

The elephant seal in Anaxial's Roster (with ivory tusks and a manipulatory trunk like the pachyderms) has a Trickster-esque backstory.

[scott-martin]

21 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I'd imagine Gloranthan octopodes would be associated with Magasta (although actually descended from Triolina, which all mortal sea life is), and so therefore decidedly un-comical beings. Just my take.

Cephalopods may be so prominent in That Other Chaosium Game that they never found a home in Glorantha. Someone should ask Sandy.

As Tanith Lee observes, "to laugh under the sea was a painful and stupid exercise only rarely indulged." Of course the extinct kindreds may well have been the frolicsome ones but in general the survivors' emotional economy isn't really all that forgiving of excess.

Heler in his bright and leaping phases may be as close as some of them get to a god of subversion or even irony. Golod's relations with Trickster are complicated. I wonder if these are the kind of people who dourly acknowledge Fate Rune.

 

[Tindalos]

25 minutes ago, Joerg said:

There is the Kraken, champion of the Sea forces, in Sandy's Gods War, and fought by Harrek in Prince of Sartar.

The Jrusteli systematic may have placed cephalopods as mollusks (darkness animals) or as sea-spawn. If sea-spawn, they could be descended from Tholaina (daughter of Triolina) or from Varchulanga. The Kraken (singular) mentioned above is a spawn of Varchulanga and presumably Drospoly.

The elephant seal in Anaxial's Roster (with ivory tusks and a manipulatory trunk like the pachyderms) has a Trickster-esque backstory.

The old Spawn of Sozakub myth had cephalopods as spawn of Molakka, although the Gloranthan Sourcebook claims that Tholaina spawned them by coupling with a darkness god.