Women in Glorantha

[Eff]

59 minutes ago, HeartQuintessence said:

THis is a amazing, I think this needs to be spun (pun intended) off into its own little scenario for the  the 'book'. Hmm maybe it really should be called  "Asrelia's Hut' - Gloranthan Femaleness- (ok maybe drop the sub title).

But I like the premise it turns all the things into really neat Heroquesting. I think we should also talk about how much  the women of the clans are its back bone - I mean I started reading thunder rebels last night, and on page 30 it talks about the types of marriage the Orlanthi recognize and this in terms made start thinking about how young women, might flirt and entince men- if  all marriages are exogamous ( in theory you're marrying no one of your own clan) - then by the  Thunder Rebels page .30  listing- which also states that it is exclusive and monogamous ( which we've positived  may not be always true).- we have both men and women moving about, which presents a complex issue for clans.

 

If your best cow-breeder woman is marry, how do you replace her? You can't really. Her secrets and her powers go with her lessening your clan.

I have some very vaguely developed ideas about how to throw even more wrenches into the works by introducing gay marriages, in the form of an adventure/scenario where the PCs have to resolve a dispute between the different clans over who's going to move in with whom. Unfortunately, I need a better grasp of RQ before it could even approach playability. 

[HeartQuintessence]

45 minutes ago, Eff said:

I have some very vaguely developed ideas about how to throw even more wrenches into the works by introducing gay marriages, in the form of an adventure/scenario where the PCs have to resolve a dispute between the different clans over who's going to move in with whom. Unfortunately, I need a better grasp of RQ before it could even approach playability. 

Its such a good idea. If anything it could be simply looking at weighing who brings what to the table, in some reguards, maybe its not physical material wealth, but some other kind of wealth, a Heroquest they have  performed an  can teach the story of .

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, HeartQuintessence said:

I mean I started reading thunder rebels last night, and on page 30 it talks about the types of marriage the Orlanthi recognize

this is also in the RQ handbook!

[Bohemond]

The way I think about marriage in Sartar is that it's driven by fertility concerns. Fertility is made likely by having the right sort of rune-souls. So Air runes marry Earth or Water runes, but never Sky or Air runes. Earth runes marry Air, Sky, or Water runes, but not Earth runes. What this means is that two men or two women cannot procreate if they both have the same rune-soul, but can if they have different rune-souls. So if two women want to marry, one of them needs to be a Vingan or a Helerite and might therefore have to do a quest to change their soul. Similarly, two Air rune men cannot marry, unless one of them becomes a Nandani. The Vingan acquires the ability to 'father' children, and the Nandani acquires the ability to bear them. So for me, Sartarite marriage and fertility isn''t about the sex of the body, it's about the gender of the soul. 

I'm a gay man, and historically, homosexual couples have usually had to find ways to work around the constraints of their society, repurposing different practices. For example, prior to the Windsor decision legalizing gay marriage in the US, one strategy that lesbian and gay couples sometimes used to simulate marriage was adoption--one partner adopted the other. So for me, I don't want a Sartarite society in which gay marriage is just like modern American marriage--I want my Sartar to feel like a very different culture. I prefer the idea that homosexual couples have to use a work-around, because it feels much more like what a homosexual couple might have had to do in the ancient world. But obviously, other LGBT gamers may want a Sartar in which LGBT love is totally normal and conventional, since it still isn't fully that way in the modern world. Sometimes we game to escape the shit we have to put up with in real life. (Which is why I'm always leery of forcing players to deal with 'grim' content in gaming. Sure, sexual assault was part of the ancient world, but it's still part of the modern world with distressing frequency, so it needs to be handled delicately if it all in gaming.)

[Lordabdul]

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

Doesn't HQ fit that role already?

That's my opinion too -- one way to make basket weaving/political intrigue/commercial negotations/etc. as interesting/challenging as combat is by giving them the same amount of crunch. HQG does exactly that by making all of those things into the same roll(s). You could also (in theory) do that with RQG if you add "tactical basket weaving" rules, with turn-by-turn rolls I'm only half kidding though -- I would love to have advanced "social combat" rules (Mythras has optional rules for that but I never tried them). It might be worth mentioning that because RQG combat is so stressful and dangerous, a lot of times the players will actually be super happy with having found a non-violent solution to their problem. I know it happens a lot with my players in various RPGs, but I suppose it depends on who you have at your table -- some players really just want to push miniatures on a board.

3 hours ago, Eff said:

I have some very vaguely developed ideas about how to throw even more wrenches into the works by introducing gay marriages, in the form of an adventure/scenario where the PCs have to resolve a dispute between the different clans over who's going to move in with whom.

That's a nice scenario idea. I think it can happen even with hetero marriages, since either the groom or bride might have the higher status (therefore suggesting who moves in with who, but it might not be obvious and their clans might disagree), or their clans might also have "incompatible" traditions (matrilineal vs patrilineal).

I don't think Sartar clans do this anymore, but there used to also be "triaty" agreements where 2 or more clans come together and agree to only marry people between them. You can see how that can easily lead to problems when some young person falls in love with a stranger.

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Bohemond said:

Similarly, two Air rune men cannot marry, unless one of them becomes a Nandani.

Nandan is an Earth deity, so... that would be difficult. Also do you mean "reproduce"? Nandan enables Earth rune people who cannot produce children on their own to bear healthy children.

1 hour ago, Bohemond said:

The Vingan acquires the ability to 'father' children

No, the Vingite literally puts a baby from the womb out the vagina (or via c-section, I suppose, if necessary). It's explicit in the myth: Orlanth as Vinga got pregnant, but then without Earth couldn't actually give birth. So Vinga made a deal. (I don't know who the child was.) The myth makes Vingites able to access Earth temporarily for midwives and birth support; in exchange, Ernalda's folk can temporarily forswear their roles and take up arms under Vinga's banner to take vengeance for their families as dyed-red Vingans. (Note I use separate terms for cultists of Vinga, "Vingites".)

Nandan is not what we would call trans any more than Vinga is. A Nandani might be an Earth rune person happy to have a beard and big muscles.

 

As for me, I'm a strong, strong believer in lineage families. Seven forms of marriage and none of them include the one I think likeliest: multiple partners. What is more reliable in a war-torn land than group marriages? The ring is the thing.

Edited December 28, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[Eff]

My immediate thoughts on Heortling (and Esrolian) marriage that inspired this is that sexual desire and love are both separated out as specific types of marriage distinct from the plain marriages. Comments from Chaosium staff that children without clear bloodlines are adopted in or taken care of by the clan temple have firmed this up- marriage in Heortling culture is not about love, or sex, or the production of children (after all, a child born out of wedlock belongs to mom's bloodline and there's no real sign they face discrimination), it's about creating kinship ties between different clans. And thus the triaty tribe. 

So there's not really any obstacle to same-gender marriages as such, because the point is merely to create those kinship ties and (from the King of Dragon Pass event with the "blood sister" ritual) these kinship ties may be created between people of the same gender. The difficulty, of course, is in determining who will take on the roles of husband and wife for the sake of patrilocality/matrilocality. Perhaps some kind of custody-sharing arrangement is in order...

Now, fertility consultation in Heortling society could be an excellent subject for a lighthearted comedy piece/farce!

[Qizilbashwoman]

4 minutes ago, Eff said:

Now, fertility consultation in Heortling society could be an excellent subject for a lighthearted comedy piece/farce!

Everyone makes it so complicated, just be sensible like the Kerofinelans and keep some Helerings around

[Bill the barbarian]

3 hours ago, Bohemond said:

Sometimes we game to escape the shit we have to put up with in real life. (Which is why I'm always leery of forcing players to deal with 'grim' content in gaming. Sure, sexual assault was part of the ancient world, but it's still part of the modern world with distressing frequency, so it needs to be handled delicately if it all in gaming.)

Oh my, the wisdom is coming out today, nice stuff Bohemond. 

[Bill the barbarian]

5 hours ago, lordabdul said:

It might be worth mentioning that because RQG combat is so stressful and dangerous, a lot of times the players will actually be super happy with having found a non-violent solution to their problem. I know it happens a lot with my players in various RPGs, but I suppose it depends on who you have at your table -- some players really just want to push miniatures on a board.

I have been saying that into a void for what seems like a couple of months now (I have always been saying it but..), I shout this out and only hear echos coming back at me until the past couple of days... Good to see others taking up the standard. 

Edited December 28, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[g33k]

3 hours ago, Bohemond said:

The way I think about marriage in Sartar is that it's driven by fertility concerns. Fertility is made likely by having the right sort of rune-souls. So Air runes marry Earth or Water runes, but never Sky or Air runes. Earth runes marry Air, Sky, or Water runes, but not Earth runes. What this means is that two men or two women cannot procreate if they both have the same rune-soul, but can if they have different rune-souls. So if two women want to marry, one of them needs to be a Vingan or a Helerite and might therefore have to do a quest to change their soul. Similarly, two Air rune men cannot marry, unless one of them becomes a Nandani. The Vingan acquires the ability to 'father' children, and the Nandani acquires the ability to bear them. So for me, Sartarite marriage and fertility isn''t about the sex of the body, it's about the gender of the soul...

I like this a lot but would make a modification & an addition:

Modification:  Earth is "omni-fertile" -- there may be most-common partnerings, but Earth is fertile with any/every other Rune.

Addition:  any two people, whatever their Runes (or plumbing) can become fertile together with sufficient magic and/or Heroquesting.  Some combo's may require more 'questing than others...

[Bill the barbarian]

2 minutes ago, g33k said:

I like this a lot but would make a modification & an addition:

Modification:  Earth is "omni-fertile" -- there may be most-common partnerings, but Earth is fertile with any/every other Rune.

Addition:  any two people, whatever their Runes (or plumbing) can become fertile together with sufficient magic and/or Heroquesting.  Some combo's may require more 'questing than others...

and here we have the beginnings of some truly great romantic adventures. Star crossed lovers call anything to mind.... 

Cheers

[g33k]

7 hours ago, HeartQuintessence said:

... If your best cow-breeder woman is marry, how do you replace her? You can't really. Her secrets and her powers go with her lessening your clan.

We're straying back into an issue of structural / institutional sexism here:  the assumption of exogamy defaulting to patrilocality, that SHE will move to HIS clan.

I expect some clans to have the opposite assumption.

I expect in some marriages, this is a point of negotiation... And if she's the best cow-breeder, maybe his clan has nothing they can offer in exchange, and they settle matrilocally (notwithstanding that one or both clans may have patrilocal traditions).

YGMV

[Sir_Godspeed]

6 hours ago, Eff said:

I have some very vaguely developed ideas about how to throw even more wrenches into the works by introducing gay marriages, in the form of an adventure/scenario where the PCs have to resolve a dispute between the different clans over who's going to move in with whom. Unfortunately, I need a better grasp of RQ before it could even approach playability. 

On a related note: that there is anthropological gold. An ethnographer would be giddy about the prospect of following such a case up close over an extended period of time (preferably multiple, but oh well) as they help showing a society's norms by highlighting their limitations. There is no culture in the world (Glorantha or ours) that has all the answers to every hypothetically possible situation up front. There will always be cases where people will have to go "Right, we'll have to figure out how to make this work." Very exciting.

Edited December 28, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 hours ago, Eff said:

Comments from Chaosium staff that children without clear bloodlines are adopted in or taken care of by the clan temple have firmed this up- marriage in Heortling culture is not about love, or sex, or the production of children (after all, a child born out of wedlock belongs to mom's bloodline and there's no real sign they face discrimination), it's about creating kinship ties between different clans. And thus the triaty tribe. 

"Sex is easy. Marriage is hard".

[JustAnotherVingan]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

We're straying back into an issue of structural / institutional sexism here:  the assumption of exogamy defaulting to patrilocality, that SHE will move to HIS clan.

I expect some clans to have the opposite assumption.

I expect in some marriages, this is a point of negotiation... And if she's the best cow-breeder, maybe his clan has nothing they can offer in exchange, and they settle matrilocally (notwithstanding that one or both clans may have patrilocal traditions).

YGMV

I remember reading that Ireland had numerous types of marriage and that if a woman had higher status than a man he'd move to her clan.

[Bohemond]

9 minutes ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

I remember reading that Ireland had numerous types of marriage and that if a woman had higher status than a man he'd move to her clan.

And I think it's said somewhere that while women usually marry out of their birth clan, there are 'Esrolian marriages', where a woman who is higher status or more wealthy than her husband remains in her clan and he married out of his birth clan. 

[g33k]

14 minutes ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

I remember reading that Ireland had numerous types of marriage and that if a woman had higher status than a man he'd move to her clan.

In Glorantha, we have Ernaldan status, usually held by women, and Orlanthi status, usually held by men.  Then there's various "special" sorts of status, like the "best cow-breeder," or "the one who knows the 'X' heroquesting-secrets."  How it all interacts is likely to be a matter of negotiation (aka RP'ing (if desired)).

Edited December 28, 2019 by g33k
quotation marks

[Sir_Godspeed]

4 minutes ago, Bohemond said:

And I think it's said somewhere that while women usually marry out of their birth clan, there are 'Esrolian marriages', where a woman who is higher status or more wealthy than her husband remains in her clan and he married out of his birth clan. 

I can't remember for certain if Esrolan marriage is synonymous with matrilocality - I think some clans traditionally just have matrilocality regardless of marriage forms, as well.

[Bohemond]

4 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Nandan is an Earth deity, so... that would be difficult. Also do you mean "reproduce"? Nandan enables Earth rune people who cannot produce children on their own to bear healthy children.

Yes, Nandan is the god of men with Earth rune souls. Whereas most men have Air rune souls, a small number will have Earth rune souls and will therefore be drawn to traditionally feminine roles, just as Vingans are women who have Air rune souls and are drawn to traditionally masculine roles. We know that Nandani are men who give birth. So as I see it, this is one way that homosexual men can establish a marriage. And if both men have Air rune souls, one must quest to change his soul. 

4 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Nandan is not what we would call trans any more than Vinga is. A Nandani might be an Earth rune person happy to have a beard and big muscles.

 

As for me, I'm a strong, strong believer in lineage families. Seven forms of marriage and none of them include the one I think likeliest: multiple partners. What is more reliable in a war-torn land than group marriages? The ring is the thing.

I agree--Nandani might be the equivalent of a trans woman today, but they can also be masculine-presenting but still have a feminine soul. I don't think Sartarite concepts of gender and sex directly map onto our concepts. 

I don't see Sartarites as polygamous, although I'm pretty sure that powerful Esrolian woman are polyandrous. Rather I think they are serial polygamous--one spouse at a time but divorce readily available so they can have several spouses over a lifetime. 

[Eff]

4 minutes ago, Bohemond said:

And I think it's said somewhere that while women usually marry out of their birth clan, there are 'Esrolian marriages', where a woman who is higher status or more wealthy than her husband remains in her clan and he married out of his birth clan. 

Well, there are two marriages that are matrilocal- underhusband marriages are ones where the wife is of higher status or has more property between the two, and thus she has more control in the marriage, but lineage remains patrilineal- her children will go to her husband's clan and be part of his bloodline. Esrolian husband marriages are matrilocal and matrilineal- children belong to the wife's clan. 

Of course, while status is officially not directly correlated to wealth, you do need to have a certain amount of wealth to qualify as a fully free member of the clan. So I think that it may go as follows: 

Standard marriage: between two people of the same social class- noble and noble, thane and thane, carl and carl, cottar and cottar (I am using the outdated terms for the sake of space).

Underwife and underhusband marriages- between two people of different social classes.

Esrolian marriage- apart from Esrolians and clans of Esrolian descent, this is presumably frequently negotiated as a means to avoid the confusion of childrearing produced by the underhusband marriage as well, and so normally takes place between a woman of higher rank and a man of lower rank. Thus, the note that Esrolian marriages are not between partners of equal social class. 

Obviously, if you want to ensure a standard marriage, you can always hastily confirm someone in a higher social class. Perhaps partway through the wedding ceremony, if you're bold or efficient. 

[Sir_Godspeed]

7 minutes ago, Bohemond said:

I don't see Sartarites as polygamous, although I'm pretty sure that powerful Esrolian woman are polyandrous. Rather I think they are serial polygamous--one spouse at a time but divorce readily available so they can have several spouses over a lifetime. 

I believe that's called serial-monogamy, not serial-polygamy.

[Bohemond]

2 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I believe that's called serial-monogamy, not serial-polygamy.

Both terms are used. They are two different ways to conceive of what is essentially the same thing, a series of marriages with one spouse at a time but which result in a sequence of spouses over a lifetime.

[Qizilbashwoman]

47 minutes ago, Bohemond said:

And if both men have Air rune souls, one must quest to change his soul. 

Oh, I see. I misunderstood what you were saying. Yes, although I'd like to clarify:

* Nandan is explicitly for those who want to be High Priests of Ernalda. You could just probably undergo blessings for a child from a Nandani.

* You don't have to change to Earth; remember that there are "four sexes" in Genertela, although we aren't told what they are. Perhaps among them are the Helering men-of-birth. If your man is a warrior, Water is a better choice as Earth men are fertility and farming, while Water is fertility and fighting. Don't want to lose your Akhilles and Patroklos thing if that's what you got going on! Fire isn't so fertile, as it kills to make way for new growth, not the best ideal for a relationship!

Whatchuu think

[Mirza]

Sorry for causing further distraction from the focus on you thread Heart by derailing further from women in Glorantha, but I gotta say some queer stuff.

1 minute ago, Bohemond said:

Yes, Nandan is the god of men with Earth rune souls. Whereas most men have Air rune souls, a small number will have Earth rune souls and will therefore be drawn to traditionally feminine roles, just as Vingans are women who have Air rune souls and are drawn to traditionally masculine roles. We know that Nandani are men who give birth. So as I see it, this is one way that homosexual men can establish a marriage. And if both men have Air rune souls, one must quest to change his soul. 

I agree--Nandani might be the equivalent of a trans woman today, but they can also be masculine-presenting but still have a feminine soul. I don't think Sartarite concepts of gender and sex directly map onto our concepts. 

I don't see Sartarites as polygamous, although I'm pretty sure that powerful Esrolian woman are polyandrous. Rather I think they are serial polygamous--one spouse at a time but divorce readily available so they can have several spouses over a lifetime. 

I'm saying this as someone who is Bi, for a gay guy you sure seem hellbent on jamming heteronormativity into Glorantha. Two men with the Air Rune as their primary elemental rune can totally get married without this whole thing about hero questing to change your soul, that's just so unnecessary. I reject that there is some forced elemental runic portion to marriage where one must have the Earth Rune, I think we've had Vingans and Orlanth worshipers married before, and they'd both have the Air Rune. A gay marriage is probably no less likely to be one that involves a dowry, a "bride" price, and moving into their spouses clan, depending on which person's clan is of higher status, or a love-marriage than heterosexual people.

As for Trans People in Glorantha, well the Orlanthi at least, I've just been having an idea knocking around in my head for a while now. Heler's water rune in the Sartar Companion allows magic for "Change Gender", and while this is most commonly interpreted as exclusively self focused, I don't think it has to be. I think that a Heler Initiate can change others sexes to match their genders, and do this as a part of their role in Orlanthi society (or at least do in My Glorantha). Sure the Heler Initiate and Trans Person might have to wait until the next holy day, but it can be done without heroquesting, and is an accepted part of Orlanthi society. Like if we're gonna have a sex changing cult, one that's notable for being beneficial in their society, why not allow them to help others that need help doing just that? This thought is the majority of the reason I prefer to treat Vingans and Nandani as their own separate enby genders, and so partly why I politely reject Qizil's elemental runes = genders. (Enby = N.B. = Non-Binary, for those of you not in the know on queer terminology.)