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Women in Glorantha


HeartQuintessence

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16 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

*Sigh* you are condescending.

Unlike Earth, on Glorantha women are just as big and strong, on average, as men.  Nor is there "physics" of the vocal cords etc... to affect sound tones.  There's probably not "testosterone" either.

Why would men's voices be lower?

What the fuck are you trying to get at. I legitimately do not understand, and it feels like you're just trying to be rude and cause trouble. Yes, our laws of physics don't apply, but in general things do pretty much work the same, even if there's different underlying reasons. Men have deeper voices in general, just like in our world.

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16 hours ago, HeartQuintessence said:

Hero forming? Ok, please tell me more, because that idea just makes me go wait, in Glorantha you can do this by Heroquesting? Wait what? (like i know everything is mythical, but my brain is doing some real gymnastics to keep up with new information.
 

Could a man  wanting to Serve Ernalda as a priestess  simply take on a Heroquest and during that quest quest bear a child, cause like you said it seems impractical (not to mention exauhsting, I mean real child bearing just takes a toll, I can only imagine that doing it as a Heroquest is going to really be... intense.

Wait are people transported to the Heroplane physically or are they spiritually there? Is there a difference?

NANDAN

This daughter of Ernalda was born with a male form. She enables women who are biologically male to give birth and thus be eligible to become priestesses. She provides Pregnancy.

Many Earth cults have a strong gender connection. Ernalda is explicitly the goddess of women, and although men are often initiates of Ernalda, only women who have given birth can be priestesses. That's a magical insight needed for the deeper mysteries of Ernalda. Maran Gor permits men to become Dancing Women, but only if they have been castrated. Babeester Gor does not permit men to initiate into her cult at all (although they can be Lay Members). That's just how it works.

Orlanth is easier. Men and women can initiate to Orlanth, although men greatly predominate. There is an all-female subcult, which forms a warrior women subculture in Dragon Pass, but membership in it is not necessary for women to become Orlanth Rune Masters (although many women join the Vinga route as it provides resources and support for its members).

Other cults are strongly gendered - Eiritha, Ourania, Ty Kora Tek, Waha, and Yelorna all come to mind. Others - including Asrelia, Yelmalio, Lodril, Storm Bull - are not, although one gender or another may predominate amongst the membership.

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4 hours ago, Jeff said:

NANDAN

This daughter of Ernalda was born with a male form. She enables women who are biologically male to give birth and thus be eligible to become priestesses. She provides Pregnancy.

Many Earth cults have a strong gender connection. Ernalda is explicitly the goddess of women, and although men are often initiates of Ernalda, only women who have given birth can be priestesses. That's a magical insight needed for the deeper mysteries of Ernalda. Maran Gor permits men to become Dancing Women, but only if they have been castrated. Babeester Gor does not permit men to initiate into her cult at all (although they can be Lay Members). That's just how it works.

Orlanth is easier. Men and women can initiate to Orlanth, although men greatly predominate. There is an all-female subcult, which forms a warrior women subculture in Dragon Pass, but membership in it is not necessary for women to become Orlanth Rune Masters (although many women join the Vinga route as it provides resources and support for its members).

Other cults are strongly gendered - Eiritha, Ourania, Ty Kora Tek, Waha, and Yelorna all come to mind. Others - including Asrelia, Yelmalio, Lodril, Storm Bull - are not, although one gender or another may predominate amongst the membership.

Well dang, Maran Gor and Babester Gor are... well hard core in some ways. Good to know.

Also I am loving the fact that in a way none of the old material gets invalidated by newer stew (though the production values on the new stuff are TOP NOTCH  By Ernalda's bountiful breasts, "The Coming Storm" and "Eleven Lights" are beautiful to be hold... if I had more space and a book shelf I'd buy physical copies.

Ok so, who's Yelorna, I immediately see "Yel" in the name and go: "Any relation to Yelmalio?"

 

Do we have people who just write new MYths for Glorantha, and in Glorantha when you do that, does it take adoption by community? (see my Wyter questions at the top of Page 8? Or can someone simply telling a story and making it up  make it a real myth in the mind of those listening and so it can be performed as a HeroQuest?

I ask because I am considering building a Clan, who's Wyter are effectively Reindeer, a 'herd' of Reindeer, (at least in my mind. I think the tribe ended up with Reindeer-herd Wyters because even though they started in Earth Season, their clan making dance was not until Winter as was their quest to find the Wyyter ( which was initially because the grouping was made up of  young people, who.. thought they knew better. (I am not sure if this the official story).

Can one even start a clan without men or do we need both Genders? (Oh now I see how Glorantha becomes a rabbit hole).

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24 minutes ago, HeartQuintessence said:

Well dang, Maran Gor and Babester Gor are... well hard core in some ways. Good to know.

Little attachment to little attachments, yeah.

 

24 minutes ago, HeartQuintessence said:

Also I am loving the fact that in a way none of the old material gets invalidated by newer stew (though the production values on the new stuff are TOP NOTCH  By Ernalda's bountiful breasts, "The Coming Storm" and "Eleven Lights" are beautiful to be hold... if I had more space and a book shelf I'd buy physical copies.

While having a bunch of grognards as a significant part of your customer base means an almost guaranteed number of sales to this bunch, it also means that you have to tread carefully not to tread too heavily on their sensibilities. I might be biased as one of the most vociferous of those grognards, but I think we are a fairly friendly and helpful bunch of old nags as long as our bbeacklog of Glorantha material isn't harmed.

 

24 minutes ago, HeartQuintessence said:

Ok so, who's Yelorna, I immediately see "Yel" in the name and go: "Any relation to Yelmalio?"

The similarity is intentional. Yelorna is the star maiden, the main goddess of the unicorn riders of Prax. With Gloranthan unicorns being epitomes of chauvinistic arrogance, only (ritually) maiden women are accepted as riders by them, which makes Yelorna a war goddess for women with celestial connections. In a striking similarity to the Zebra riders, only a portion of the tribe rides the signature beasts of their tribe, as the (necessary) mothers and wives of the tribe must ride other steeds.

Yelorna is detailed in the classic RQ2 scenario box The Big Rubble, a companion piece to The City of Pavis, with both of them available as an omnibus pdf Pavis and the Big Rubble - one of the excellent, timelessly good and at the time of their publication ground-breaking scenario books which contributed so much to the popularity of RuneQuest in those days. Get the pdf...

 

 

24 minutes ago, HeartQuintessence said:

Do we have people who just write new MYths for Glorantha, and in Glorantha when you do that, does it take adoption by community? (see my Wyter questions at the top of Page 8? Or can someone simply telling a story and making it up  make it a real myth in the mind of those listening and so it can be performed as a HeroQuest?

Yes, we do have such people, and some of the myths have been adopted not just by the community, but even have wormed their way into canon.

And yes, a GM or even a player party can tell a story and (in cooperation with the GM) make it a "real myth". Glorantha is a setting full of myths waiting to be discovered, told, and be acted upon.

New myths should not discover a new Great Pantheon that rules over a significant part of the modern world - Glorantha is described in too much detail to allow this into a canonical version of the setting. (If you are fine with a not-so canonical setting with your own additions, there is nothing to stop you from adding such stuff, but altering the setting in such a major way makes it harder for people playing closer to canon to adopt it for their own games.)

On the other hand, it is fairly normal to discover a past culture or pantheon that did rule over a significant part of the setting, only to be destroyed by one of the known major players (like Chaos, the Storm Tribe, drowned by the Seas, eaten by the trolls, used as raw material by the dwarves, overgrown by the Aldryami), or simply dying out by exhaustion of their assets (like e.g. the Gold Wheel Dancers).

 

 

24 minutes ago, HeartQuintessence said:

I ask because I am considering building a Clan, who's Wyter are effectively Reindeer, a 'herd' of Reindeer, (at least in my mind. I think the tribe ended up with Reindeer-herd Wyters because even though they started in Earth Season, their clan making dance was not until Winter as was their quest to find the Wyyter ( which was initially because the grouping was made up of  young people, who.. thought they knew better. (I am not sure if this the official story).

Doing things on a clan level has always a place in Glorantha.

 

24 minutes ago, HeartQuintessence said:

Can one even start a clan without men or do we need both Genders? (Oh now I see how Glorantha becomes a rabbit hole).

A "clan without men" is possibly better described as an all-female cult or temple. The Unicorn Tribe of Prax (the Yelorna worshipers) are a non-Orlanthi example of such a society, even though they have males riding alongside the mothers of their tribe.

The Marazi amazons of Trowjang, an island beyond Teshnos, which is a fertile subtropical peninsula beyond Prax and Genert's wastes, have no men at all except for slaves and visitors voluntarily accepting slave status during their stay. The amazons are all the wives of their (planetary) deity Tolat, who visits them one night in the year and impregnates all of his wives who desire so (and who aren't cursed in a way that prevents impregnation, including the curse of old age).

Among the Heortlings, such a clan would be unusual in modern times. But if this is for the clan's founding story in the Greater Darkness, such a clan is quite possible.

Another opportunity to start such a clan would have been in the years following 1120 (the Dragonkill) north of Dragon Pass, when most of the adult male population had been killed by the dragons. A new clan founded from the widows and orphans left behind and without their normal providers could have been forced to make do without males for the first generation, at least.

But then, there is a biological imperative to find a method to breed new clan people, and unless you want to grant your clanswomen parthenogenesis, they are bound to require at least some males for breeding. If your clan is supposed to be Orlanthi, these males would usually marry the women, at least for year marriages. For the clan to be stable, these marriages would have to be matrilocal.

 

I don't suppose that you are envisioning a juvenile male harem fantasy (as found in dozens if not hundreds of shounen mangas) with that clan, but keep in mind that there may be an audience mistaking or mis-using it for such. You could of course play with that meme and invert it as a gruesome secret of the clan, but that is just sliding into the misogynistic Greek myths about powerful women abusing upstanding Greek heroes with their wiles. Again, I don't expect you to go into that direction, but it is another possible different interpretation of such a myth.

I would be very interested in such a take avoiding those pitfalls in the previous paragraph.

 

Reindeer are not usually living anywhere near Orlanthi, although the Ice Age before the Great Darkness brought them far enough south to interact with the Storm worshipers of southern Peloria. Having lived in northern Scandinavia for a while, I don't think that reindeer and productive agriculture of a neolithic to iron age level can mix, but hey, this is not the real world, and while in the real world deer better adapted to the absence of permafrost replaced the reindeer, why not go for a group of reindeer trapped on a diminishing island of permafrost and surviving through adaptation to warmer climate, possibly by allying to these women?

We tend to think of mammoths as shaggy woolly beasts, but the Columbian Mammoth of what now is the USA and Mexico was in all likelihood a pachyderm with as sparse fur as modern elephants. A reindeer variant with a lot less adaptation to the cold but retaining their antlers for both sexes is not that big a jump - adoption by Eiritha (or an equivalent earth goddess) might have brought this gift of surviving in a climate only rarely accommodating their strengths may work.

The variant species may be as threatened as the aurochs is in Dragon Pass. Or they may have been brought back by a previous hero. Bringing back an animal species is a common feat of notable heroes - Moirades brought back a songbird in his quest to woo the Feathered Horse Queen, Argrath is prophecied to bring back the aurochs (and The Coming Storm/Eleven Lights tell about a possible method), Enjeem the Leopard introduced (or re-introduced) her favourite large feline (also in the near future of the setting, despite my use of grammatical past). King Heort is associated with the White or Silver Deer, aka Heortling deer, a magical species that was important in the Great Darkness. With all these precedents, I see no trouble for bringing in the reindeer, with a little explanation/backstory.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Little attachment to little attachments, yeah.

 

While having a bunch of grognards as a significant part of your customer base means an almost guaranteed number of sales to this bunch, it also means that you have to tread carefully not to tread too heavily on their sensibilities. I might be biased as one of the most vociferous of those grognards, but I think we are a fairly friendly and helpful bunch of old nags as long as our bbeacklog of Glorantha material isn't harmed.

 

The similarity is intentional. Yelorna is the star maiden, the main goddess of the unicorn riders of Prax. With Gloranthan unicorns being epitomes of chauvinistic arrogance, only (ritually) maiden women are accepted as riders by them, which makes Yelorna a war goddess for women with celestial connections. In a striking similarity to the Zebra riders, only a portion of the tribe rides the signature beasts of their tribe, as the (necessary) mothers and wives of the tribe must ride other steeds.

Yelorna is detailed in the classic RQ2 scenario box The Big Rubble, a companion piece to The City of Pavis, with both of them available as an omnibus pdf Pavis and the Big Rubble - one of the excellent, timelessly good and at the time of their publication ground-breaking scenario books which contributed so much to the popularity of RuneQuest in those days. Get the pdf...

 

 

Yes, we do have such people, and some of the myths have been adopted not just by the community, but even have wormed their way into canon.

And yes, a GM or even a player party can tell a story and (in cooperation with the GM) make it a "real myth". Glorantha is a setting full of myths waiting to be discovered, told, and be acted upon.

New myths should not discover a new Great Pantheon that rules over a significant part of the modern world - Glorantha is described in too much detail to allow this into a canonical version of the setting. (If you are fine with a not-so canonical setting with your own additions, there is nothing to stop you from adding such stuff, but altering the setting in such a major way makes it harder for people playing closer to canon to adopt it for their own games.)

On the other hand, it is fairly normal to discover a past culture or pantheon that did rule over a significant part of the setting, only to be destroyed by one of the known major players (like Chaos, the Storm Tribe, drowned by the Seas, eaten by the trolls, used as raw material by the dwarves, overgrown by the Aldryami), or simply dying out by exhaustion of their assets (like e.g. the Gold Wheel Dancers).

 

 

Doing things on a clan level has always a place in Glorantha.

 

A "clan without men" is possibly better described as an all-female cult or temple. The Unicorn Tribe of Prax (the Yelorna worshipers) are a non-Orlanthi example of such a society, even though they have males riding alongside the mothers of their tribe.

The Marazi amazons of Trowjang, an island beyond Teshnos, which is a fertile subtropical peninsula beyond Prax and Genert's wastes, have no men at all except for slaves and visitors voluntarily accepting slave status during their stay. The amazons are all the wives of their (planetary) deity Tolat, who visits them one night in the year and impregnates all of his wives who desire so (and who aren't cursed in a way that prevents impregnation, including the curse of old age).

Among the Heortlings, such a clan would be unusual in modern times. But if this is for the clan's founding story in the Greater Darkness, such a clan is quite possible.

Another opportunity to start such a clan would have been in the years following 1120 (the Dragonkill) north of Dragon Pass, when most of the adult male population had been killed by the dragons. A new clan founded from the widows and orphans left behind and without their normal providers could have been forced to make do without males for the first generation, at least.

But then, there is a biological imperative to find a method to breed new clan people, and unless you want to grant your clanswomen parthenogenesis, they are bound to require at least some males for breeding. If your clan is supposed to be Orlanthi, these males would usually marry the women, at least for year marriages. For the clan to be stable, these marriages would have to be matrilocal.

 

I don't suppose that you are envisioning a juvenile male harem fantasy (as found in dozens if not hundreds of shounen mangas) with that clan, but keep in mind that there may be an audience mistaking or mis-using it for such. You could of course play with that meme and invert it as a gruesome secret of the clan, but that is just sliding into the misogynistic Greek myths about powerful women abusing upstanding Greek heroes with their wiles. Again, I don't expect you to go into that direction, but it is another possible different interpretation of such a myth.

I would be very interested in such a take avoiding those pitfalls in the previous paragraph.

 

Reindeer are not usually living anywhere near Orlanthi, although the Ice Age before the Great Darkness brought them far enough south to interact with the Storm worshipers of southern Peloria. Having lived in northern Scandinavia for a while, I don't think that reindeer and productive agriculture of a neolithic to iron age level can mix, but hey, this is not the real world, and while in the real world deer better adapted to the absence of permafrost replaced the reindeer, why not go for a group of reindeer trapped on a diminishing island of permafrost and surviving through adaptation to warmer climate, possibly by allying to these women?

We tend to think of mammoths as shaggy woolly beasts, but the Columbian Mammoth of what now is the USA and Mexico was in all likelihood a pachyderm with as sparse fur as modern elephants. A reindeer variant with a lot less adaptation to the cold but retaining their antlers for both sexes is not that big a jump - adoption by Eiritha (or an equivalent earth goddess) might have brought this gift of surviving in a climate only rarely accommodating their strengths may work.

The variant species may be as threatened as the aurochs is in Dragon Pass. Or they may have been brought back by a previous hero. Bringing back an animal species is a common feat of notable heroes - Moirades brought back a songbird in his quest to woo the Feathered Horse Queen, Argrath is prophecied to bring back the aurochs (and The Coming Storm/Eleven Lights tell about a possible method), Enjeem the Leopard introduced (or re-introduced) her favourite large feline (also in the near future of the setting, despite my use of grammatical past). King Heort is associated with the White or Silver Deer, aka Heortling deer, a magical species that was important in the Great Darkness. With all these precedents, I see no trouble for bringing in the reindeer, with a little explanation/backstory.

 

 

THank you, this is making the  "Hearthling Harts" an interesting tribe.  I like the idea of the idea that the clan was founded by women who were widows and Orphans of Greater Darkness and then again a restablishment of "old methods' when the Dragonkill too many of the men : parallellism.

 

I don't think the Hearthlings are like those Marazi at all, though I imagine during the Greater Darkness  the Hearthlings took no slaves (that seems to be a thing that ties the Sartarites together, whether or not they took slaves during the Greater Darkness..

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2 hours ago, Joerg said:

I might be biased as one of the most vociferous of those grognards, but I think we are a fairly friendly and helpful bunch of old nags as long as our bbeacklog of Glorantha material isn't harmed.

I find it fascinating you think of yourself as one of those grognards. I feel perhaps you have not run into Battletech players if you think you are a true grognard.

Also, I am conflicted on the pejorative use of "grognard". I've been playing since the original Red Box: am I not the old guard, too? Why do only grumblers and malcontents get recognised? Grognards of that sort exist who have been playing for only four years. I think that elder players with complaints are not really the source of tabletop grognardia - so many old school players are innovative and adaptive, because gaming is about fun.

I guess this is a side conversation, but as for gender: one thing we know, @HeartQuintessence, is that Jernotie (Jernotius, Jernotia, Jernedeus), a very ancient god of Illumination of Peloria and the mother-father of Oria and Dendera (Esrola and Ernalda), refused to choose a gender like all other gods. Some of the gods tried to slay them but ReDalaMa raised a seven-peaked mountain to protect their child on the Vosel - now called Mount Jernalf, the holiest site for the settled Pelorians west of the Dara Happans. I think this is a function of their identity as a primeval deity of Illumination, which eliminates difference. (Jernotie appears to be the only Illumination deity of the area that isn't Rashoran.)

Does that mean spirits have a gender? Well, I think they probably do have a sense of gender, depending on their level of sentience. A wyter? Most likely, although that gender could be like Heler's and shift back and forth. Look at the wyter's power and affiliation.

2 minutes ago, HeartQuintessence said:

THank you, this is making the  "Hearthling Harts" an interesting tribe.

Heort is Old English for "hart" and King Heort was in fact some kind of deer-shifter. His name wasn't just a name.

Edited by Qizilbashwoman
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3 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I guess this is a side conversation, but as for gender: one thing we know, @HeartQuintessence, is that Jernotie (Jernotius, Jernotia, Jernedeus), a very ancient god of Illumination of Peloria and the mother-father of Oria and Dendera (Esrola and Ernalda), refused to choose a gender like all other gods. Some of the gods tried to slay them but ReDalaMa raised a seven-peaked mountain to protect their child on the Vosel - now called Mount Jernalf, the holiest site for the settled Pelorians west of the Dara Happans. I think this is a function of their identity as a primeval deity of Illumination, which eliminates difference. (Jernotie appears to be the only Illumination deity of the area that isn't Rashoran.)

Does that mean spirits have a gender? Well, I think they probably do have a sense of gender, depending on their level of sentience. A wyter? Most likely, although that gender could be like Heler's and shift back and forth. Look at the wyter's power and affiliation.

@Qizilbashwoman I maybe so new to glorantha that the  context of the above makes no sense to me. Isn't Illumination a  Lunar thing? How is there an ancient god of it?
I guess its best to say that the Wyter is the representation of the Hearthling Harts, this clan founded by women and orphans of the Greater Darkness and reliviing their story of their ancestors at the DragonKill. [I guess this is there 'canon' history now'].

 

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20 minutes ago, HeartQuintessence said:

@Qizilbashwoman I maybe so new to glorantha that the  context of the above makes no sense to me. Isn't Illumination a  Lunar thing? How is there an ancient god of it?
I guess its best to say that the Wyter is the representation of the Hearthling Harts, this clan founded by women and orphans of the Greater Darkness and reliviing their story of their ancestors at the DragonKill. [I guess this is there 'canon' history now'].

 

Illumination is a psychological/mystical state that is most closely associated with the Lunars because the Lunar Way presents it as an aspirational goal that can be practically achieved by just about anyone and ought to be. Most other practitioners keep it more restricted or disguise it because the two most famous pre-Lunar Illuminates, Arkat and Nysalor, are both widely feared and hated for their ability to tear through restrictions and boundaries thought impermeable.

Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being.

"I just read an article in The Economist by a guy who was riding around with the Sartar rebels, I mean Taliban," -Greg Stafford, January 7th, 2010

Eight Arms and the Mask

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2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I find it fascinating you think of yourself as one of those grognards. I feel perhaps you have not run into Battletech players if you think you are a true grognard.

I am German. At times very much so, and one of our national traits is complaining - especially complaining at high standards. Ask the other members of the tribe who have experienced me, whether online or face-to-face.

 

Quote

Also, I am conflicted on the pejorative use of "grognard". I've been playing since the original Red Box: am I not the old guard, too? Why do only grumblers and malcontents get recognised? Grognards of that sort exist who have been playing for only four years. I think that elder players with complaints are not really the source of tabletop grognardia - so many old school players are innovative and adaptive, because gaming is about fun.

I came into roleplaying games with rules and dice about 10 years late, although I had been a narrator for roleplaying games using plush animals and my sister's favorite doll even earlier - she (my sister, not the doll) once commented that she preferred playing with me because there she and her doll would experience adventures whereas other kids she played with would play house. We would also use lego figures (like the ones starring in the lego movie) or smurf figures for this kind of miniature-driven narrative roleplaying, where touching the figure implied that you took narrative control. Each of these toys had the equivalent of pages of background information implied...

 

Quote

Does that mean spirits have a gender? Well, I think they probably do have a sense of gender, depending on their level of sentience. A wyter? Most likely, although that gender could be like Heler's and shift back and forth. Look at the wyter's power and affiliation.

Yes, there are gendered spirits. Former (and future) people and beasts will have experienced (or implied) gender. But then, people aren't always reborn with the same gender - e.g. Count Moralatap of the Anger in Carmania, or the Kitori founder whose name's spelling escapes me momentarily.

 

Quote

Heort is Old English for "hart" and King Heort was in fact some kind of deer-shifter. His name wasn't just a name.

Heort's father was actually antlered (Darndrev the Horned), the child of the (illicit, or at least resisted) union of his fawn grandfather Sorenthalosta, who took on human shape only occasionally, and the daughter of the king of the Infithtelli at Deksarshill. (Heortling Mythology p.120)

Heort's great-grandfather Armandor was the lover of Arina, who turned her lovers into wilderness creatures, and who gave birth to a fawn child as a result. This makes Arina sound like an avatar of the Lady of the Wild, possibly a nymph.

 

That list also provides the possible origin of Ivarne being frozen, King Hektastalos of Kordos (which was the Stravuli tribe's land in Vingkotling times), who became ice lord after Darntor, a descendant of Korol and ancestor of Heort, had died defending him as he valued his oaths to Orlanth higher than his personal ethos.

43 minutes ago, HeartQuintessence said:

Fortunate Sucession, that's the first time I have heard of this. Is this a book of some sort of a subsection somewhere?

This is the second book of the Stafford Library of unfinished works (third if you count King of Sartar, which is an actual finished book). It covers all the canonized emperors of Dara Happa and mentions a few which have been struck from that list, or never been acknowledged in Raibanth.

This is the official timeline of the history and pre-history of Peloria as kept by the Dara Happans, and it includes a number of western Pelorian alternatives or additions to that list in the appendices, which then led to the third book in this series, the Entekosiad where these myths are explored as raw experience written down rather than as the dynastic roll of predecessors.

Like all books in the Stafford Library, these are works in progress which have been refined over several re-releases, and then left in their pdf incarnation as "good enough, there are other things that need exploration" state.

Much of this has found its way into the Guide, even more has been hidden in the mists of history and is at best hinted at in the Guide.

The Stafford Library books are great deep research material for Glorantha, and occasionally have the best data that we have on a topic. But unless you really want to invest into deep research, keep yourself occupied with the more accessible stuff, and use us Lhankor Mhy and Buserian sages around here for the small fee of a few "thank you" likes to make that research for you.

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21 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Heort's father was actually antlered (Darndrev the Horned), the child of the (illicit, or at least resisted) union of his fawn grandfather Sorenthalosta, who took on human shape only occasionally, and the daughter of the king of the Infithtelli at Deksarshill. (Heortling Mythology p.120)

Heort's great-grandfather Armandor was the lover of Arina, who turned her lovers into wilderness creatures, and who gave birth to a fawn child as a result. This makes Arina sound like an avatar of the Lady of the Wild, possibly a nymph.

Wasn't also Heort part of the 1/7th in that he wasn't an Orlanthing, he wasn't an initiate of Orlanth?

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2 hours ago, Eff said:

Most other practitioners keep it more restricted or disguise it because the two most famous pre-Lunar Illuminates, Arkat and Nysalor, are both widely feared and hated for their ability to tear through restrictions and boundaries thought impermeable.

Jernotie is notable for being a Pelorian deity of Illumination not affiliated with the Lunar Way. They're not associated with Rashoran. I'm sure in the modern era there's been a ton of influence by Rashoran disciples, particularly Lunars, but neither the Nysalorians nor the Lunars claim spiritual or literal lineage from Jernotie.

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Just now, Qizilbashwoman said:

Wasn't also Heort part of the 1/7th in that he wasn't an Orlanthing, he wasn't an initiate of Orlanth?

Yes. While he was a hero of the Orlanth cult, he wasn't even an initiate - Heort was a shaman instead. Which probably made a lot of sense during the Greater Darkness when there was hardly any deity left to answer to worship with helpful magic or blessings.

But then, I am anything but sure that the concept of "initiate" made any sense prior to the Silver Age/Gray Age when something like Time and a stirring of the divine powers that contributed to the Ritual of the Net was available. It is possible that the whole shebang with initiate status and rune magic available through sacrifice (the Hantrafal way) only completely fell together with the first Dawn.

Just now, Qizilbashwoman said:

Jernotie is notable for being a Pelorian deity of Illumination not affiliated with the Lunar Way. They're not associated with Rashoran. I'm sure in the modern era there's been a ton of influence by Rashoran disciples, particularly Lunars, but neither the Nysalorians nor the Lunars claim spiritual or literal lineage from Jernotie.

Not associated with the Lunar Way? The overseer of Mernita is alternatingly called Verithurus(/a/um) and Jernedeus. Verithure is Jernotie, as far as the Dara Happans (who can see Mt. Jernalf in the west) are concerned (and both are addressed as males in Dara Happan history, regardless of what gender they may have displayed).

All of the pieces claimed to be precursor avatars of Sedenya have a non-Lunar part to their stories. The story about the ascension of Daxdarius to Mt. Jernotius has bits and pieces Sedenya present threefold - as Jernotius, Natha, and Entekos. Possibly also as Daxdarius.

 

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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7 hours ago, HeartQuintessence said:

Ok so, who's Yelorna, I immediately see "Yel" in the name and go: "Any relation to Yelmalio?"

The Yel in Yelm, Yelorna, and Yelmalio is probably Yu-El, or "Imperial Light/Fire," with Yelm having the -m masculine suffix ending it (or vice versa, as Elm seems to also mean sun, as opposed to Elz/Elza for moon), Yelmalio following that with a diminutive. Yelorna adds an "orn" phoneme, and the feminine -a ending.

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9 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

The Yel in Yelm, Yelorna, and Yelmalio is probably Yu-El, or "Imperial Light/Fire," with Yelm having the -m masculine suffix ending it (or vice versa, as Elm seems to also mean sun, as opposed to Elz/Elza for moon), Yelmalio following that with a diminutive. Yelorna adds an "orn" phoneme, and the feminine -a ending.

The -orna in Yelorna might be understood as an contraction of "Ourania", the star mistress of heaven, thought-child of Dayzatar.

The "El" miht be a contraction of "Ehil" (as in the Ralian sun god Ehilm). In this case, the non-contracted name could be

Yu-Ehil-Ourania. And if we had a syllabic script for Dara Happan rather than an alphabetic one, the respective glyphs would be used.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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4 hours ago, HeartQuintessence said:

@Ali the Helering

Fortunate Sucession, that's the first time I have heard of this. Is this a book of some sort of a subsection somewhere?

It is one of the Stafford Library texts, the history of Dara Happa and, more generally Peloria, through a Lunar lens. 

Along with the Entekosiad and the Glorious Reascent of Yelm it forms a tremendous source for that region. 

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Something that hasn't been mentioned yet, but which is worth mentioning: the main body of governance in Orlanthi societies is the Clan Ring, a semi-elected-semi-selected council. The Ring can have a variable number of members, but seven is pretty common. Regardless: all of these can be filled by women. There's nothing preventing women from holding formal political leadership roles in Orlanthi society.

This means that influence through informal (powerful women advising or cajoling their husbands) or sacred (temples, religious societies, etc.) are perhaps less essentially "female" than in most societies in real world history.

And of course; Ernalda is not the kind of queen who is queen only by marriage to a king. She was already Queen. The Orlanthi-cult origin myth makes her a concubine in the palace of the Sun Emperor by the time Orlanth found her and later saved her - but the Ernalda-cult myths (at least the ones found in Esrolia) makes it plenty clear that Ernalda is no one's concubine, and was already the Earth Queen long before she met Orlanth (even if he turned out to be a pretty great catch, all things considered).

Anyway, by contrast, there are a number of deeply patriarchic and chauvinistic societies who follow Solar pantheons which at least officially bar women from formal political leadership positions. In such cases, informal influence becomes more important. This split between formal and informal is a lot easier to pretend exists on paper than in real life (or in play), since pre-modern societies often do not differentiate between private and public, family and political affairs (and indeed why would they, if the primary political unit, the clan, is also at least conventionally, an pseudo-family unit).

Most of us here have our reservations about the supremely patriarchal Dara Happan culture, which is big on male gods judged by the degree by which they avoid sexual encounters with (lesser) female deities. However, by the time of the "present" in RuneQuest and HeroQuest, they have long been incorporated into the Lunar Empire, and their ruling class and imperial patriarchal solar cult have largely had to integrate with the Lunar Goddess cult, and while I hesitate to call the latter "feminist" (it's difficult to judge societies modeled after ancient societies by modern social movements), they do give women a great deal of legal independence and access to a great deal of religious and potentially political power.

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Wow deja vu all over again.

38 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Something that hasn't been mentioned yet, but which is worth mentioning: the main body of governance in Orlanthi societies is the Clan Ring, a semi-elected-semi-selected council. The Ring can have a variable number of members, but seven is pretty common. Regardless: all of these can be filled by women. There's nothing preventing women from holding formal political leadership roles in Orlanthi society.

This means that influence through informal (powerful women advising or cajoling their husbands) or sacred (temples, religious societies, etc.) are perhaps less essentially "female" than in most societies in real world history.

And of course; Ernalda is not the kind of queen who is queen only by marriage to a king. She was already Queen. The Orlanthi-cult origin myth makes her a concubine in the palace of the Sun Emperor by the time Orlanth found her and later saved her - but the Ernalda-cult myths (at least the ones found in Esrolia) makes it plenty clear that Ernalda is no one's concubine, and was already the Earth Queen long before she met Orlanth (even if he turned out to be a pretty great catch, all things considered).

Anyway, by contrast, there are a number of deeply patriarchic and chauvinistic societies who follow Solar pantheons which at least officially bar women from formal political leadership positions. In such cases, informal influence becomes more important. This split between formal and informal is a lot easier to pretend exists on paper than in real life (or in play), since pre-modern societies often do not differentiate between private and public, family and political affairs (and indeed why would they, if the primary political unit, the clan, is also at least conventionally, an pseudo-family unit).

Most of us here have our reservations about the supremely patriarchal Dara Happan culture, which is big on male gods judged by the degree by which they avoid sexual encounters with (lesser) female deities. However, by the time of the "present" in RuneQuest and HeroQuest, they have long been incorporated into the Lunar Empire, and their ruling class and imperial patriarchal solar cult have largely had to integrate with the Lunar Goddess cult, and while I hesitate to call the latter "feminist" (it's difficult to judge societies modeled after ancient societies by modern social movements), they do give women a great deal of legal independence and access to a great deal of religious and potentially political power.

This is great, it gives me an idea, for a character- though I am struggling to represent her a bit through RQG's history tables, but here's the rough version that's coalecsed over the last few hours:

-Child of the Hearthling Harts Clan (Ok that name sounds really kitchy and needs to change)

- Her family includes her two mothers- One a  Pure Horse woman Grazelander- 'captured via heroquest-   The  heroquest kidnapping may have been due to the Pure Horse Woman's lover being a Sartarite/Orlathi woman - The Grazelander Woman's  dowry was

 She is young yet- pre initiation (using RQG's  rules for inexperienced adventurers, though I may tweak things even more..)- as this thread was started to  create and develop a nice "Lady's Suppliment.

 

But opinions are welcome on the scant ideas I threw to the winds.

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My my, everybody's having a slow holiday season it seems? Don't you all have clan rites and yearly heroquests to perform? 😅

34 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

The Ring can have a variable number of members, but seven is pretty common. Regardless: all of these can be filled by women.

On paper, it's even more likely for these to be all filled with women than with all men given that you'll always want one or two Earth priestesses there, whereas there's little or no gender restrictions for the other positions... plus the fact that Orlanthi women are supposed to be (stereotypically speaking) cunning and scheming compared to men. I can totally see one clan somewhere in Sartar where that would be the case, although I wouldn't imagine the entire clan to be all women for both practical reasons (as Joerg already commented upon) but also because that might put that clan in a possibly unnecessary awkward position with the other surrounding clans (politically and culturally). But then again that might be an interesting way to explore strong societal themes through roleplay...

Nobody bothered giving @HeartQuintessence any proper links to the Stafford Library books so here it is. Note that you can buy the PDFs from Chaosium there, or follow the link somewhere on that page to their Lulu store for ordering softcover books (incidentally, I got the entire Stafford library as a Christmas gift to myself just today! I'm particularly interested in Arcane Lore, and the 2 Heortling-related books). Before you get into the Stafford Library, though, you should start with King of Sartar which, unlike the Stafford Library, is actually considered "finished". Sadly it's not available in print from Chaosium at this point (they only sell the eBook/PDF now)... you can still find the first hardcover edition at reasonable prices on eBay, but the second (and latest) edition is a bit harder to come by (I was lucky enough to grab one last year... eBay alerts are your friend).

 

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Ludovic aka Lordabdul -- read and listen to  The God Learners , the Gloranthan podcast, newsletter, & blog !

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1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

@HeartQuintessenceSadly it's not available in print from Chaosium at this point (they only sell the eBook/PDF now)... you can still find the first hardcover edition at reasonable prices on eBay, but the second (and latest) edition is a bit harder to come by (I was lucky enough to grab one last year... eBay alerts are your friend).

No it's in print! right there on the page you link to!

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22 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Wow, glad I never played HQ, those rules, when interpreted as you do, really suck.   You should play RQ instead. 🙂

 

Which are you referring to? The 3 runes? Because that is one of my favorite bits of the rules. :D So, am just curious. I find it easier to get into the character with focus on what works for me and not what does little for me. 

And, you can change a rune. If you want to change cults (Vingan for example and you have an earth rune and no other way to reach her) you can heroquest to change out a rune to be able to join said cult. 

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1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

No it's in print! right there on the page you link to!

Not showing up for me on this page at least -- only wishlist and share buttons are visible. Maybe some difference in stock in the various warehouses? I guess people can order through you if they don't see the button :)

Ludovic aka Lordabdul -- read and listen to  The God Learners , the Gloranthan podcast, newsletter, & blog !

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