"Pay us twice" say Chaosium

[frogspawner]

"If you want to see additional BRP releases buy a PDF now and a physical copy later. It's the best way to ensure BRP releases are profitable enough for us to print." - Dustin "O'Chaosium" Wright (here)

Is it just me, or does anyone else object to this?

What's the use of a publisher who won't print stuff?

With the acclaimed Rome available via Lulu, printed and delivered for only an extra £5.50, why won't Chaosium do the same?

Edited June 3, 2009 by frogspawner
Fixing Dustin's typo: "by = buy"

[pulpcitizen]

I see the issue as two-fold:

1. If Chaosium see themselves as a publisher rather than developers, arguably outsourcing to a company like Lulu is contrary to that.

2. There is a certain logic inherent in the position - using PDF sales to determine potential demand for a print book makes some sense, however I don't agree that buyers should be expected to buy one format to have the ability or option to buy in a preferred alternative format.

So whilst I can see their reasoning, I do object, not angrily, but on principle. Maybe they need to modify the business: become games developers (outsourcing some publishing) and concentrating on only publishing higher-volume sales products like CoC and the related fiction.

Edited June 3, 2009 by leonmallett
Spelling - bodes well for my manuscript, doesn't it? ;); post further expanded

[rust]

I do not object to it, but my answer is a plain "No way". Depending on the

material in question I use either a PDF (easy to cut and paste, search, etc.)

or a print version (easier to read and to handle at the roleplaying table) for

my purposes, but only extremely rarely both versions.

Besides, for "slim stuff" like monographs I can just as well buy the PDF and

then have it printed over here, which is much less expensive than buying an

additional print version.

For me, Dustin could also have written "Buy 500 copies and we will be fine !"

- it is doubtless true, but it would not make any sense for me.

[RosenMcStern]

Just to make it clear, the "acclaimed" Rome will also be available from Chaosium tomorrow or so. I am the one who oversees the delivery and I expect the FedEx man to be at their door this afternoon or so. Dustin and Charlie already have the PDF, too. Lulu is a Good Thing for us small publishers but an established publisher with in-house stocking capabilities should not go that way. I wish we at Alephtar Games were able to skip the lulu thing, but unfortunately we are not (yet).

I can perfectly understand why Chaosium does not wish to publish physical books before they know whether there is a market for them. Some of our upcoming BRP products will be PDF only, at least at the beginning, because of the higher risk connected to physical publishing.

The point now is that customers do not want to pay twice because they are supporters. Understandable. One possible solution could be that of deducting a fraction of the price of the PDF from the price of the book, if the book is later purchased. But this is Chaosium's choice, exactly as whether to buy the PDF or not is the customer's choice only. Alephtar Games would certainly do such a thing if we had the opportunity, but unfortunately we only sell physical books through lulu, which does not allow discount coupons, so it is not a viable option for us at present.

[Al.]

Chicken egg egg chicken

I won't buy Chaosium deadtree coz of shipping costs from US

Chaosium won't get deadtree into my FLGS as they can't afford to ship over here on sale or return and FLGS has stopped buying one of everything ever printed 'just in case'

Its an absolutely reasonable statement for Chaosium to make. And likewise reasonable for peeps to say 'no chance pal' in response

Al

[RosenMcStern]

You meant "Those FLGS that are still in business", didn't you?

This is the typical market situation that requires a so-called "change in business model".

[Thalaba]

Some of our upcoming BRP products will be PDF only, at least at the beginning

Ahh. Any further hints as to what these might be? You mentioned a Mecha product already. What else is going on in the Alephtar Atelier?

Thalaba

[Nightshade]

Eh. Doesn't seem that different from a number of companies that offer both .pdf and deadtree versions, but don't bundle them.

[Rurik]

Eh. Doesn't seem that different from a number of companies that offer both .pdf and deadtree versions, but don't bundle them.

Most of the company's that don't bundle them don't give you a break on price for buying both.

What most don't do is say "Buy both or we'll stop printing supplements", which is how Dustin's statement comes across. I can see how that offends some.

[seneschal]

It's a niche marketing dilemma. PDF allows projects to be published electronically that would have been rejected outright by major game companies in the days of mass market print-only RPG-ing. On the other hand, publishers, realizing they're unlikely to sell mountains of copies of these items, are unwilling to risk the funds needed to create a physical product. Office Depot's lenient printing policies enable me to create a coil-bound book of reasonable quality (another innovation) from my PDFs. Ironically, that means Office Depot gets my $30-$40 instead of the cautious game publisher. Meanwhile, its harder and harder to catch my favorite FLGS when its actually open, and its selection of RPGs is thinning.

But if it weren't for the small press/PDF revolution I'd never gotten to enjoy Monster Island, Mazes & Minotaurs, or Mutant Future. Or BRP QuickStart.

[pulpcitizen]

Ultimately Chaoisum is a business and they need to take reasonable decisions. On that basis I can't fault them in this regard - the decision is entirely understandable. As an example I may not like it, but that is my problem ultimately as a consumer - there is a range of products out there (PDF), I simply choose to avoid the format.

I feel any sense of discomfort over the comment comes from the sense of community around the company and products, although I may be wrong.

Edited June 3, 2009 by leonmallett

[frogspawner]

Thanks for your comments, gents. It seems I'm not so out of line objecting to this. I'm not angry about it, just a bit sad. All those Projects Dustin goes on to mention, all the Monographs everyone is working on - it seems likely that, for me, their P&P will be prohibitive (if they ever get actually printed at all). ;-(

I find myself hoping those products won't go to Chaosium, but to RosenMcstern's Alephtar Games instead and hopefully Lulu - just like Rome... which, btw, was actually just £4.75 postage.

[PK Games]

What they should do, to doubel tap costumers, is offer a discount on the paper version if you buy the PDF version.

[Nightshade]

Most of the company's that don't bundle them don't give you a break on price for buying both.

What most don't do is say "Buy both or we'll stop printing supplements", which is how Dustin's statement comes across. I can see how that offends some.

And thus why my statement was "that different" rather than "at all different".

It just can't annoy me the way a couple publishers do who charge the same price for .pdfs as they do for the deadtree edition.

[RosenMcStern]

I find myself hoping those products won't go to Chaosium, but to RosenMcstern's Alephtar Games instead and hopefully Lulu - just like Rome...

The end of the world is not near... it is tomorrow :shocked:

[cjbowser]

"If you want to see additional BRP releases buy a PDF now and a physical copy later. It's the best way to ensure BRP releases are profitable enough for us to print." - Dustin "O'Chaosium" Wright (here)

Is it just me, or does anyone else object to this?

What's the use of a publisher who won't print stuff?

With the acclaimed Rome available via Lulu, printed and delivered for only an extra £5.50, why won't Chaosium do the same?

I can see how this can seem objectionable, it seems like a new kind of ransom method. But I view it as Dustin doing something pretty rare in the publishing industry -- laying the cards on the table. The more you buy, the more money they have to be able to print books. I'm print sure Chaosium is a hand-to-mouth type of publisher. They don't have enormous cash reserves, so the previous publication pays for the current one. I'm sure a lot of other publishers are in the same boat, they just won't admit it.

It's not that they won't print stuff if you don't buy. It's that they can't.

All that being said, I'm not one who buys both the print and PDF copies of the book. At least not every time. Sure, I have the BRP product and BRP pdf, but those cases are few and far between. And I bought them when Chaosium did one of their fundraisers... I mean 30% off sales.

Sure there's lulu, but I've never been happy with any book I purchased from lulu in terms of quality. Maybe I've just had a run of bad luck because other people have had good results. Some friends of mine who publish through lulu get really good quality print runs when they mass print their stuff to take to cons. I always get crap, so I stopped trying. Plus, it would probably take more cash for Chaosium to stock X amount of lulu printed books than X amount of normally printed books.

Edited June 3, 2009 by cjbowser

[Jason D]

But I view it as Dustin doing something pretty rare in the publishing industry -- laying the cards on the table. The more you buy, the more money they have to be able to print books. I'm print sure Chaosium is a hand-to-mouth type of publisher. They don't have enormous cash reserves, so the previous publication pays for the current one. I'm sure a lot of other publishers are in the same boat, they just won't admit it.

It's not that they won't print stuff if you don't buy. It's that they can't.

I wouldn't disagree with a word you wrote.

[threedeesix]

When I first read it on their website a couple days ago I just took it as Dustin forgot to add the little "smiley :)" icon at the end of the sentence. It honestly never crossed my mind as anything other than what was supposed to be a humorous comment. One of those things that comes off differently when someone reads it, as opposed to if it had been mentioned verbally.

Of course, I have no idea how it was originally meant to be intended.

Rod

[frogspawner]

The end of the world is not near... it is tomorrow :shocked:

Darn. I should've gone for the PDF instead, then...

[Jarulf]

When I first read it on their website a couple days ago I just took it as Dustin forgot to add the little "smiley :)" icon at the end of the sentence.

I have to say that this is exactly how I read it too, and have followed this thread with some bemusement.

But that's me - disconnected from the harsh realities of life ;-)

[soltakss]

I intend to buy most BRP supplements as PDFs, with the exception of Rome and possibly Mythic Iceland, so it doesn't really bother me. If the supplements appeared in Wayland's Forge then I might be tempted to buy a paper copy as well, but they haven't so far, apart from the rulebook.

Having a PDF and then a hard-copy is no different to me to having a Zero Edition and then the actual rulebook, and plenty of people bought BRP Zero.

[pulpcitizen]

I intend to buy most BRP supplements as PDFs, with the exception of Rome and possibly Mythic Iceland, so it doesn't really bother me. If the supplements appeared in Wayland's Forge then I might be tempted to buy a paper copy as well, but they haven't so far, apart from the rulebook.

Having a PDF and then a hard-copy is no different to me to having a Zero Edition and then the actual rulebook, and plenty of people bought BRP Zero.

I can't see Roger stocking the monographs, although possibly any official supplements may make it.

[RosenMcStern]

Hmmm, while we are at it, we actually have some copies of Stupor Mundi we did not sell at Tentacles. This allows us to do the "Discount for who bought the PDF" trick.

For a limited time, we will provide a printed copy of Stupor Mundi at a discount to anyone who already purchased a PDF. Price is 15 EUR in the EU (and Norway, to keep our admin happy) and 16 EUR outside the EU, including postage.

To order write to info@alephtargames.com and specify your address and your DriveThru customer ID, or the email you use one YourGamesNow if you purchased through YGN. We will send you instructions for the payment.

[Trifletraxor]

What about a discount for the pdf for those who bought the physical copy?

SGL.

[Al.]

You meant "Those FLGS that are still in business", didn't you?

This is the typical market situation that requires a so-called "change in business model".

You're attributing a rather more outward looking attitude to me than I deserve. I was refering directly to MY FLGS.

But your general point is well made.

Al