Does initiation always result in tattoos now?

[GAZZA]

There doesn't seem to be anything specific regarding this, but for example the Prince of Sartar comic has the initiation process of Argrath resulting in him getting magical Movement and Air tattoos, and the Razoress is covered with them.

This contrasts at least mildly with RQ3 River of Cradles (where the stigmata of Zola Fel are curiosities) and more specifically seems to make Illumination a lot less dangerous. If an Illuminated Storm Bull decides to become a Rune Lord of Thanatar, he's going to be spotted by the new tats even if Detect Chaos can't see him. (Or possibly Illuminate tattoos can be visible or invisible as the Illuminate desires, I suppose).

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, GAZZA said:

There doesn't seem to be anything specific regarding this, but for example the Prince of Sartar comic has the initiation process of Argrath resulting in him getting magical Movement and Air tattoos, and the Razoress is covered with them.

Mabne not always. Those examples are two of the most powerful characters in all of Genertela after all. Personally I think it's probably quite common, but not ubiquitous. I think that neatly solves the problem - someone who comes back without tattoos, well that's not unusual, anyone with below average POW will probably come back unchanged. So maybe coming back without tattoos could also be foreshadowing* that they might become an illuminate later in life.

Basically I like ambiguity and diversity, because that opens doors.

* In a literary sense - nobody inside a story ever notices the foreshadowing that is there for the reader to spot.

[Thaz]

Also practises vary in different areas. Prax for example favours Scarification over ink 😉 

[Diana Probst]

Initiation into my PC's clan is an auto-tattoo.  There's a blue tree you embrace and it gives you a vision and spikes you in return.  However, it does take the Wyter Priest checking beforehand where your other tattoos are.  The tree's powerful, but it's also blind to what is on skin already.

Other clans may vary.

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, GAZZA said:

There doesn't seem to be anything specific regarding this

Throughout Greg's unpublished novels (small parts have be published), there are mentions of initiation tattoos. In a personal letter he said:

Quote

Some clans and maybe a few tribes, may differentiate themselves through unusual haircuts or beards. Many of the clans still practice the old custom of tattoos, but these cannot be seen except when undressed. As a result many of the clans wear their tatoos embroidered upon their outer clothing, or even etched or painted onto their !irmor. One clan (or very unlikely a tribe) might all wear an ermine tail woven into their braids because of some f mous event or other specific thing. But these are all individual traits, and the customs are not something which every clan has.

In Glorantha the Game (an unpublished playtest) you got to draw on tattoos. Greg himself was tattooed.

Have a look at these:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/glorantha-2/cultures/orlanthi-initiation-rites/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/glorantha-2/orlanth-makes-a-ring/

These tattoos are actually drawn by Greg,

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/websites/moondesign-com/jeffs-old-blogs/draft-character-sheets-sartar-2/

Ultimately it's up to you to include tattoos. They look cool in art, but at the table you likely need to describe them. Bear in mind that the more clothes worn the less visible they are:

Have a look at Jeff Laubenstein's art for the Guide:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gallery/jeff-laubenstein-2/

 

[GAZZA]

I'm going to skip the whole thing I think. It seems kind of silly to me.

[davecake]

Tattooing at initiation, both cult initiation and the adult initiation in which you are acknowledged as an adult, or other major life events, is an Orlanthi custom, including a standard clan tattoo design, and appropriate cult runes, and maybe others. 
but it’s a custom. The magic does not depend on it, other cults have different customs, other cultures definitely have different customs.

tatooing is common in some other Gloranthan cultures too. And often used for magical purposes too, such as an Enchantment. 

if you really want a character not to have tattoos, Orlanthi will think they are a foreigner. If an Orlanthi has no tattoos, there are definitely going to be questions about why, as it’s very strange, the sort of thing that might happen if you were raised a foreigner or outlaw at best. 
But if you hate the idea, YGWV, and it won’t make much difference. 

[Akhôrahil]

Clan initiation basically must include tattooing - otherwise, what's the point? Belonging to a clan gives you backing and protection, and you need others to be able to tell or it doesn't work. (I'm assuming that permanent outlawry includes the removal of clan tattoos in some way, physical or magical.)

Cult initiation is the more interesting question. Most cults wear them proudly, but secret and persecuted cults, like chaotic infiltration cults (Cacodemon and Krarsht, for instance) have every reason not to advertise cult status. But maybe it's a necessary requirement? The Cult of Cacodemon specifically has a spell that hides cult tattoos, so it's clear that they at least exist. I could see sneaky cults adding stealthy tattoos, like on the soles of your feet, on your scalp, or inside your mouth or on the insides of your eyelids.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[David Scott]

13 hours ago, GAZZA said:

I'm going to skip the whole thing I think.

Unless you mention it,  no one will know.

[Jeff]

On 2/25/2020 at 8:57 AM, GAZZA said:

There doesn't seem to be anything specific regarding this, but for example the Prince of Sartar comic has the initiation process of Argrath resulting in him getting magical Movement and Air tattoos, and the Razoress is covered with them.

This contrasts at least mildly with RQ3 River of Cradles (where the stigmata of Zola Fel are curiosities) and more specifically seems to make Illumination a lot less dangerous. If an Illuminated Storm Bull decides to become a Rune Lord of Thanatar, he's going to be spotted by the new tats even if Detect Chaos can't see him. (Or possibly Illuminate tattoos can be visible or invisible as the Illuminate desires, I suppose).

Illumination is not intended to be some super cool power game thing. The number of Illuminated Storm Bulls are minuscule. The number of Illuminated Storm Bulls that somehow decide to become a Rune Lord of Thanatar probably approaches zero throughout all of history. An Illuminate CAN violate cult restrictions without repercussion, but it doesn't mean they can automatically cult. Illuminated or not, I can't imagine any Thanatar temple letting a Storm Bull cultist anywhere near their temple. The tattoos of cult and tribe are likely the least of the problems.

[GAZZA]

10 hours ago, Jeff said:

Illumination is not intended to be some super cool power game thing. The number of Illuminated Storm Bulls are minuscule. The number of Illuminated Storm Bulls that somehow decide to become a Rune Lord of Thanatar probably approaches zero throughout all of history.

"Miniscrule" and "rare" are often synonyms for "PC" though. And frankly, I don't really care about the demographics of Illuminated Storm Bull/Thanatar cultists so much as I care about what happens when a PC Storm Bull Illuminate decides to join Thanatar - does the new Chaos tattoo she'd apparently get immediately give the game away?

So yeah, I'm sticking with the "auto tattoos are silly" IMG.

[GAZZA]

15 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Cult initiation is the more interesting question. Most cults wear them proudly, but secret and persecuted cults, like chaotic infiltration cults (Cacodemon and Krarsht, for instance) have every reason not to advertise cult status. But maybe it's a necessary requirement? The Cult of Cacodemon specifically has a spell that hides cult tattoos, so it's clear that they at least exist. I could see sneaky cults adding stealthy tattoos, like on the soles of your feet, on your scalp, or inside your mouth or on the insides of your eyelids.

That being true, why do the stigmata for the PCs in River of Cradles raise such comment? Wouldn't the common existence of cult tattoos imply that most observers would simply assume the PCs were Zola Fel initiates, at least at first glance?

I think I will keep tattooing for things like matrices and the like IMG, though I do appreciate the comments.

[Jeff]

4 hours ago, GAZZA said:

"Miniscrule" and "rare" are often synonyms for "PC" though. And frankly, I don't really care about the demographics of Illuminated Storm Bull/Thanatar cultists so much as I care about what happens when a PC Storm Bull Illuminate decides to join Thanatar - does the new Chaos tattoo she'd apparently get immediately give the game away?

So yeah, I'm sticking with the "auto tattoos are silly" IMG.

Do you actually have a player with an illuminated Storm Bull character who wants to join Thanatar?

 

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Do you actually have a player with an illuminated Storm Bull character who wants to join Thanatar?

 

Sounds like a decent NPC villain, to me.

My inner munchkin-GM wonders:. If a Thanatari RuneLevel (with, for example, 4-5 heads) is himself beheaded (by the aforementioned SB/T Illuminate) does this new guy get to keep the head of his Thanatari victim, PLUS the heads formerly held by said RL?

[GAZZA]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Do you actually have a player with an illuminated Storm Bull character who wants to join Thanatar?

 

I don't have a campaign going yet. I'm hoping by the time I finish prepping for the first few sessions the campaign guide and maybe Gods and Goddesses of Glorantha will be available (I don't consider RQG sufficiently complete to be playable yet).

But, should such a situation exist, I will certainly not be disallowing it on a silly basis like "unfortunately your tattoos blow your cover".

[GAZZA]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Sounds like a decent NPC villain, to me.

Eh. If you let PCs become illuminated - and a lot of GMs won't, which is absolutely fair enough - then you at least need to be prepared for this sort of thing. I think @soltakss website describes a campaign where all of the PCs were illuminates; one of them (a dark troll, the name escapes me) had an overall goal of breaking the Curse of Kin, no matter what it took. If I recall correctly the troll became a Thanatar Hero, in addition to what was presumably more normal cults such as Zorak Zoran.

One can envisage a Storm Bull illuminate that wants to permanently kill the Crimson Bat with a similar level of fanaticism, such that they are prepared to use the weapons of Thanatar in the fight.

I mean I'm not suggesting it's particularly likely but I would be astonished if, having become an illuminate, no player was at all interested in joining a Chaos cult with their new found "undetectable" status. It's no different than an illuminated broo becoming a Chalana Array priestess after all, and if I recall correctly there is such a character in a published supplement somewhere.

[Akhôrahil]

26 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

one of them (a dark troll, the name escapes me) had an overall goal of breaking the Curse of Kin, no matter what it took. If I recall correctly the troll became a Thanatar Hero, in addition to what was presumably more normal cults such as Zorak Zoran.

"Plunder your enemies for their secrets" is a very Arkati thing to do, if you're leaning that way.

[Jeff]

27 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

Eh. If you let PCs become illuminated - and a lot of GMs won't, which is absolutely fair enough - then you at least need to be prepared for this sort of thing. I think @soltakss website describes a campaign where all of the PCs were illuminates; one of them (a dark troll, the name escapes me) had an overall goal of breaking the Curse of Kin, no matter what it took. If I recall correctly the troll became a Thanatar Hero, in addition to what was presumably more normal cults such as Zorak Zoran.

One can envisage a Storm Bull illuminate that wants to permanently kill the Crimson Bat with a similar level of fanaticism, such that they are prepared to use the weapons of Thanatar in the fight.

I mean I'm not suggesting it's particularly likely but I would be astonished if, having become an illuminate, no player was at all interested in joining a Chaos cult with their new found "undetectable" status. It's no different than an illuminated broo becoming a Chalana Array priestess after all, and if I recall correctly there is such a character in a published supplement somewhere.

If you are dealing with this sort of stuff, I suspect local tattooing customs are the least of your character's concerns.

[GAZZA]

2 minutes ago, Jeff said:

If you are dealing with this sort of stuff, I suspect local tattooing customs are the least of your character's concerns.

(shrug) That's more or less what I was asking - whether it was a local custom or not.

[GAZZA]

4 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

"Plunder your enemies for their secrets" is a very Arkati thing to do, if you're leaning that way.

So I understand.

It will likely be several months before my campaign starts, and I'm certainly not handing out the likes of Harrek as pre-gens - but I always plan for the PCs to be the stars of the show, and if the show is called Hero Wars, well... they will potentially eventually be very bright stars indeed.

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

(shrug) That's more or less what I was asking - whether it was a local custom or not.

It is for the Orlanthi and Praxians. Less so for the lowland Pelorians. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

I've always thought but never worked out exactly how that Illumination in RQG should be a gradualist experience - you should gain skill points same as any rune. HeroQuest doesn't work this way, and people can have instant Illumination, but for RQG characters, gradualist Illumination would let you have a less off/on "twink" experience with your character and conflicts.

Perhaps Illumination would fit better mechanically as a Passion?

Edited February 27, 2020 by Qizilbashwoman

[French Desperate WindChild]

54 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Perhaps Illumination would fit better mechanically as a Passion?

without rules I would manage it like that

Illumination power is activated like a "spell" based on this passion

Illumination capacity to break religion rules would succeed if an opposite roll between god devotion and illumination passion

But I m waiting for gogagogogagagog before decide anything !

[davecake]

12 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I've always thought but never worked out exactly how that Illumination in RQG should be a gradualist experience - you should gain skill points same as any rune

Consider that not every Illumination school teaches all the Illumination abilities and that you can learn more through study, and that the abilities may start out unreliable and gradually become reliable, and that the way Illluminate abilities work may differ (Nysalor riddles is not the only way of teaching, for example). And consider that abilities like Meditation or Mystic Cult Lore are going to be useful. And yet hat some mystic cults will teach abilities that either are more useful after Illumination, or can only be thought to the Illuminated. I think there is room in that for a more gradualist approach for sure - it’s just that much of it happens after Illumination, to unlock the full potential of the path. Illumination is a major dramatic step on the way, but it doesn’t mean there isn’t further travel. 

(personally, I’d quite like the HQG concept of Lunar phases back in RQG too, and at least some ideas of what draconic magic can be learnt, and some development of ‘austerities’ as a form of magic that isn’t mystic per se, but often used by mystics - forms of magic that are used by mystics, as we progress into the Hero Wars and the deep contest between Argraths dragon mystics and the Lunar elite really heats up and gets transgressive and weird)

Of course, mysticism is also often far more individualist in how people progress. And if your individual characters path includes Chaos and exploitation and falling to the dark side, well, that’s a potentially interesting story too. 

 

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

11 hours ago, davecake said:

And if your individual characters path includes Chaos and exploitation and falling to the dark side, well, that’s a potentially interesting story too. 

one of the things i like about the FFG Star Wars game is mechanically how the use of the Dark Side is actually super tempting. You roll the Force die and well shit, you got Dark pips. Boy do you really need those. It can't hurt to use those this one time. And the Dark Force pips are worth more towards success... I'm sure you can make it up later. Surely this will be fine. If you don't use the die, someone will definitely be badly injured and might even die.