Adventures for shaman

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Sleep spell

Quote

Chalana Arroy’s special spirit magic of Sleep may not be taught to outsiders under any circumstances.

I would consider that a shaman who has Sleep is uniquely placed to use it. As an initiate of Chalana Arroy, they would have to follow all the usual restrictive cult vows. I have no issue with this.

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

I would consider that a shaman who has Sleep is uniquely placed to use it. As an initiate of Chalana Arroy, they would have to follow all the usual restrictive cult vows. I have no issue with this.

Also, a shaman with sleep who is not a member of Chalana Arroy and uses it might find themself in trouble with Chalana Arroy. Expect the local Orlanthi to pay a visit or perhaps the shaman is refused healing from the Chalana Arroy cult.

I don't think that the Chalana Arroy cult would use the Bleeding Curse against them, but they could do.

 

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

I would consider that a shaman who has Sleep is uniquely placed to use it. As an initiate of Chalana Arroy, they would have to follow all the usual restrictive cult vows. I have no issue with this.

No need for CA - Daka Fal for instance grants "Spirit Magic: All" from start, and there are any number of ways to grab otherwise restricted spirit magic.

[soltakss]

40 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

No need for CA - Daka Fal for instance grants "Spirit Magic: All" from start, and there are any number of ways to grab otherwise restricted spirit magic.

Spirit Magic "All" does not necessarily include restricted Cult Special Spirit Magic.

The way that I see it, Cults have certain powers and magical abilities. some of these powers and abilities are reflected in the spirit Magic the cult has. This spirit Magic is guarded and held by Cult Spirits. They only teach the magic to cult members. Normally, cult members are forbidden to teach such magic outside the cult.

Of course, there are many ways to learn cult special spirit magic when not in a cult:

• Some members teach spells to outsiders and are punished for it. that famously happened with the Chalana Arroy Befuddle spell
• Shamans and other magicians can make spirit raids against a temple or shrine, to steal a secret, power or spirit Magic spell
• Ancestor worshippers might summon up an ancestor and command the Ancestor to teach them cult special Spirit Magic
• Someone might use special magic to steal a spirit magic spell from someone's mind
• Etyries has a spell Exchange, or something like that, spell that allows a spirit magic spell to be transferred from one person to another
• HeroQuestors can gain cult special Spirit Magic as a reward for a HeroQuest
• People in good standing with a cult may be taught cult special Spirit Magic as a reward (Aldrya teaches Food Song in this way)

I am sure there are more ways.

But, Spirit Magic "All" means all Common Spirit Magic, not All Spirit Magic.

 

[Akhôrahil]

11 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Spirit Magic "All" does not necessarily include restricted Cult Special Spirit Magic.

While everyone is free to play however they want to, the distinction you're drawing doesn't exist in the rules. There is Common and Special Rune Magic, but this does not go for Spirit Magic.

(Similarly, Shamans can teach "any listed spirit magic spell". The entire Sleep monopoly for CA has very shaky foundations when any shaman or anyone who pals around with a shaman can learn it.)

Perhaps it would have been better to have Sleep as Rune Magic instead? It's really overpowered as Spirit Magic, anyway - it's an "I Win" spell. Befuddle at least has a number of balancing safeties.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Thaz]

11 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Shamans are incredibly powerful. Just a Sleep spell each turn that will be basically irresistible and a permanent Protection 20 or something is super good, and that’s just scratching the surface.

Multispell. Sleep, a few disrupts and a buff spell each turn.... Yeah Humakti are mean. But shaman.... 

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Thaz said:

Multispell. Sleep, a few disrupts and a buff spell each turn.... Yeah Humakti are mean. But shaman.... 

You need to go in with your biggest Shield spell against them. That’s super nasty against Spirit Magic.

[davecake]

20 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Shamans are incredibly powerful. Just a Sleep spell each turn that will be basically irresistible and a permanent Protection 20 or something is super good

Funnily enough, two things I'd try to make very difficult to obtain IMG. Sleep should be only available normally from the Chalana Arroy cult. Anyone obtaining it must have used extraordinary methods. Regardless of what the rules say, a shaman will not be able to locate a spirit to teach it in any normal place. And a Protection 20 requires learning from a spirit if such power and rarity as to be quite a significant quest in itself. Neither is impossible, but both should be a huge quest. 

Not that I am bothered too much. Protection can be bypassed multiple ways, and Protection is incompatible with Countermagic, which is a vulnerability. And Sleep is blocked with Countermagic, and still requires POW vs POW. They just change the nature of the game - a shaman with such powers is mighty indeed, but still needs to worry about other mighty shamans and similar opponents. And the greatest powers a shaman has 

The biggest consequence for a shaman who abuses the Sleep spell may simply be that the Chalana Arroy cult refuses to heal them until they give it up. Thats what I love about Glorantha - even really powerful magic that might be something I would find overpowering in other games becomes a great inspiration for narrative consequences that are more fun than worrying about game balance. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

or some taboos have mundane reasons. It is not only forbidden, it means real impact

if a sleeping guy is protected by chalana, breaking this taboo could give some curse.

so if the shaman use sleep in  bad way, she could be more sensitive to malia spirits, could loose some teeth (cha penalty), could sneeze (concentration penalty), or just bad sleep give nightmares (physical penalty, psychic penalty as spirit dance, etc..)

 

 

[Akhôrahil]

7 hours ago, davecake said:

Funnily enough, two things I'd try to make very difficult to obtain IMG. Sleep should be only available normally from the Chalana Arroy cult.

Or, RAW, from any shaman, or the Daka Fal cult (including for starting characters). I was a bit surprised to learn this.

It makes a lot of sense as a ruling, but even so, shamans should beable to pick it up from Drowsiness Spirits and the like.

7 hours ago, davecake said:

And Sleep is blocked with Countermagic, and still requires POW vs POW.

Shield is the better defence - any size of Countermagic will just be popped by a huge boost. Countermagic sucks that way. On the other hand, Shield is notably superb, so it won't be rare to see it used.

POW vs. POW tends to be trivial for shamans.

7 hours ago, davecake said:

The biggest consequence for a shaman who abuses the Sleep spell may simply be that the Chalana Arroy cult refuses to heal them until they give it up. 

Except for reusable Resurrection, you don't really need CA for healing. Other cults can pick up the slack in almost all cases.

I do think that abuses of Sleep might lead to consequences. For DF, your ancestors might be displeased with you.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[davecake]

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Or, RAW, from any shaman, or the Daka Fal cult (including for starting characters). I was a bit surprised to learn this.

And I think it is a mistake in the RAW. 

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Shield is the better defence - any size of Countermagic will just be popped by a huge boost.

It always is. But the point is more that Sleep it isn't an 'all powerful' attack. If you have even a spell barrage capable of multiple Sleep spells, but your attackers all have Countermagic up, would won't be able to Sleep them before they physically overwhelm you most likely, as you'll be slowed down by that huge boost. 

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

POW vs. POW tends to be trivial for shamans.

Except vs other shamans. Who are frequently your serious rivals or enemies. So, you know, it is one those 'really great, except when you really need it' things. 

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Except for reusable Resurrection, you don't really need CA for healing. Other cults can pick up the slack in almost all cases.

If your shaman thinks they aren't important, and so you are going to make an enemy of CA, I'm not going to argue. But I think the attitude is hubris and you'd regret it. Its not going to make you any friends with the other Lightbringers either. But I'm sure there are many shamans who share your opinion. 

 

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

If your shaman thinks they aren't important, and so you are going to make an enemy of CA, I'm not going to argue. But I think the attitude is hubris and you'd regret it. Its not going to make you any friends with the other Lightbringers either. But I'm sure there are many shamans who share your opinion. 

I wonder if it would be overkill to classify "cast Sleep then slit their throats" as a Chaotic act. It's in the neighborhood, at the very least.

[jajagappa]

5 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I wonder if it would be overkill to classify "cast Sleep then slit their throats" as a Chaotic act. It's in the neighborhood, at the very least.

Probably opens a path for Spirits of Disease to enter (and CA not there to stop them) at the least.  Maybe even opens a path for Cacodemon.

[Joerg]

I don't see why there shouldn't be a different deity or slightly great spirit somewhere in Glorantha whose domain is sleep and dreams that could have this spell. Or at least a similar spell - possibly an active one, which would mitigate it a lot.

All the information we have about CA being the sole regular source of this spell is Cults of Prax, really, which means that in Prax and probably Dragon Pass CA is the only source for this spirit spell.

As she is the only source for the re-usable Resurrection rune spell. At least if we don't think about Deezola. Or Brithini and Vadeli sorcerers having something different from her rune magic but similar in outcome.

[Dragon]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

I wonder if it would be overkill to classify "cast Sleep then slit their throats" as a Chaotic act. It's in the neighborhood, at the very least.

That reminded me of my tertiary Chalana Arroy character, Gavving, on the Cradle. Gavving slept a familiar in the first encounter and one of the many non-player allies killed it. But Gavving couldn't tell which one and none of his friends would tell him. Gavving slept a Lunar early in the second encounter and our minotaur Storm Bull, Mummar, picked him up and tossed him overboard. Gavving stared at Mummar, and Mummar said 'He wanted to be with friends.' Gavving gave up casting Sleep as he clearly couldn't protect the targets. In the Corflu section Gavving got crushed by a giant snake and failed his DI. My main character took a couple rounds to get there, but then made short work of that snake. We mourned a few our of our and many of the other defenders.

In total 2 of my 5 characters survived the entire campaign.

[GAZZA]

10 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I wonder if it would be overkill to classify "cast Sleep then slit their throats" as a Chaotic act. It's in the neighborhood, at the very least.

One of the Seven Mothers is a Chalana Arroy knock off right? Wouldn't s/he get the spell too, and if so... well, that's your go to for "but Chaos is just an illusion anyway ..." followed by Sleep/Throat Slit. (I don't know if whoever the Seven Mothers equivalent of CA is gets Sleep, perhaps they don't).

In all seriousness though I don't see a big deal about making Sleep CA only, or River Eyes ZF only, and so on. But, given this is RQG where even initiates get reusable Rune magic, it's hard to argue that making them Rune spells isn't the right approach. (Though something like River Eyes would need a boost for that).

[davecake]

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

I don't see why there shouldn't be a different deity or slightly great spirit somewhere in Glorantha whose domain is sleep and dreams that could have this spell.

Well, maybe, but in Central Genertela it is canon that it is a CA monopoly, and I don't think the RQG authors intended to overturn that. 

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

All the information we have about CA being the sole regular source of this spell is Cults of Prax, really, which means that in Prax and probably Dragon Pass CA is the only source for this spirit spell.

The rule about Sleep being strictly cult only has been in every CA RQ writeup since, and will be in the Gods book writeup too. It is not just Prax and Dragon Pass. 

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

As she is the only source for the re-usable Resurrection rune spell. At least if we don't think about Deezola. Or Brithini and Vadeli sorcerers having something different from her rune magic but similar in outcome.

Deezola does not have access to re-usable Resurrection. One use like everyone else except CA. 

I don't have any reason to think Brithini and Vadeli sorcerers do either - I think its a difficult ritual for them. 

[davecake]

1 hour ago, GAZZA said:

One of the Seven Mothers is a Chalana Arroy knock off right?

Deezola is more of an Ernalda knock off, really, with comparable but weaker Healing, Earth and sovereignty concerns. She is no slouch as a healer, has access to spells like Heal Body and Regrow Limb - but her Resurrect is one-use, and she doesn't have the sheer range of healing powers as CA. And she doesn't have Sleep. 

The Pelorian equivalent of CA is CA. Or, if you want to get precise, the goddess Erissa (a daughter of Yelm) is the subcult of CA that is common in Dara Happa and central Peloria, but it is a subcult of CA with the same rules. 

Now, the Lunars do have a fair percentage of Illuminates, and the Etyries cult has the ability to Exchange spirit magic spells, so it is definitely the case that an Illuminated CA could Exchange the spell with someone else (and then presumably relearn it from a different temple to avoid suspicion). But thats a more individual thing, and would be pretty rare and clandestine, because the CA hierarchy would be furious. But I imagine the odd Dart Warrior or Spoken Word agent could have done it if you want. 

 

[GAZZA]

13 minutes ago, davecake said:

The Pelorian equivalent of CA is CA. Or, if you want to get precise, the goddess Erissa (a daughter of Yelm) is the subcult of CA that is common in Dara Happa and central Peloria, but it is a subcult of CA with the same rules. 

There is, I believe, a canonical High Healer broo, though I'm not sure if they're illuminated or not. If not, then it seems even Chaotic creatures are not banned from CA. (Unless the broo had undergone the Cleansed One hero quest I guess).

[French Desperate WindChild]

4 hours ago, GAZZA said:

There is, I believe, a canonical High Healer broo, though I'm not sure if they're illuminated or not. If not, then it seems even Chaotic creatures are not banned from CA. (Unless the broo had undergone the Cleansed One hero quest I guess).

In my memory, the canonical healer broo is cleansed from any chaos. I don't know if he is illuminated but he is no more touched by chaos. I believe it was a zola fel heorquest (like Orlanth and Daliath but less dangerous, just mortal)

I am not sure of all I juste wrote 😛 (were sources unofficial scenrio or canon publication ?)

[Thaz]

5 hours ago, davecake said:

Well, maybe, but in Central Genertela it is canon that it is a CA monopoly, and I don't think the RQG authors intended to overturn that.

"Learning Spirit Magic A shaman may learn any spirit magic spell desired (unless a specific spell is forbidden to the shaman for other reasons, such as a cult restriction or taboo) and without cost. " I dont read that as barring sleep although I guess you could do so if you wanted. However the sleep spell makes no mention of it being restricted. In fact there is no mention of any restrictions to spirit magic spells. In the Ca description both befuddle and sleep spells get a mention in that those under their influence are under the cult members protection.  I think that entire thing has gone away. YGMV. 

 

[soltakss]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

In my memory, the canonical healer broo is cleansed from any chaos. I don't know if he is illuminated but he is no more touched by chaos. I believe it was a zola fel heorquest (like Orlanth and Daliath but less dangerous, just mortal)

The Wild Broo Healer of the Rockwoods is Chaotic and meant to be. I think it is an illustration that Chaotic Broo can be nice too.

The Cleansed One is the one who did the Zola Fel HeroQuest and it may or may not have been a Broo.

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

The Wild Broo Healer of the Rockwoods is Chaotic and meant to be. I think it is an illustration that Chaotic Broo can be nice too.

The Cleansed One is the one who did the Zola Fel HeroQuest and it may or may not have been a Broo.

oh I mixed both exceptions then !

 thanks

[davecake]

On 5/6/2020 at 11:26 AM, GAZZA said:

There is, I believe, a canonical High Healer broo, though I'm not sure if they're illuminated or not.

Yes. And I said:

On 5/6/2020 at 11:26 AM, GAZZA said:

The Pelorian equivalent of CA is CA.

The canonical Healer broo is the Wild Healer of the Rockwoods. Rockwoods = not Peloria

Of course there are all sorts of exceptions to  any Gloranthan rules, which makes for rich mines of narrative etc. But the point I wanted to make is that, while individual healers can vary a lot, the cult doesn't vary much -  CA is CA across multiple cultures. CA in Esrolia is very similar to CA in Sartar, in Prax, even in the jungles of Pamaltela. There are a few differences for sure - but the core principles are much the same. And thanks to that tradition of wandering healers, is likely to remain so. There are some small differences - The Sisters of Mercy sub-cult is popular in Esrolia and Dragon Pass and Prax etc, so the Refine Medicine spell means they use more healing herbs there, the Erissa sub-cult can Restore Vision, Elamle is popular with elves and a huge cultural figure in Maslo. But everywhere they take the pacifist oath. Of course, some individual healers might break that oath, but in the Lunars (or anyone else, except for the odd Illuminate) don't get to avoid taking it.