Help me read the Entekosaid

[Nevermet]

59 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Getting a sense of continuity or something resembling a timeline (or the monomyth laid out in the God Learner Maps in the Guide) is extremely hard. There are stories that feel like a dystopian Green Age... 

I almost want to suggest the easiest way to read the Entekosaid is to only deal with the Entekosaid, accept that it is a series of myths (and a few snippets of history) from very different points in time, edited together by an unreliable narrator.  

 

I don't think I actually believe this, but I almost do

[Sir_Godspeed]

7 hours ago, soltakss said:

For me, the most important thing to remember about the Entekosiad is that it is wrong.

It tries to prove something and ultimately fails.

Once you realise that, it is easy to understand.

She made her mistake before writing the Entekosiad, didn't she? 

(I tried to find out how to put in spoiler tags, but failed)

Prior to writing this book/going on the quest, she had a mission to prove that Dendara was the Red Goddess. The Red Goddess punished her and blinded her for this. 

Instead, the Entekosiad is a treatise (of sorts, in the very loose sense) seeking to prove instead that Dendara is Entekos. 

I'm not sure if it counts as a spoiler, but the closest we get to a conclusion is "Eh, kinda?"

Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Sir_Godspeed

[Sir_Godspeed]

- double post -

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2020 by Sir_Godspeed

[Sir_Godspeed]

9 hours ago, Videopete said:

So I have no idea who the börk the Pelandan are, there are the Pelorians of the Peloria region, but then again my point of reference is the Gloranthan Sourcebook.  At least I know who Sheng Selaris is from Prince of Sartar.

As others have suggested, the Pelandans are a separate culture of Pelorians aside from Dara Happans, with an ancient (pre-Time) urban culture of their own. 

If you've read the Guide, Glorious Reascension, or Fortunate Succession (the latter of which I've not read myself) the Entekosiad has an additional impact and sheds some light on Dara Happan chronology and mythology, and not to the benefit of the Dara Happans, imho.

It's not the only culture featured in this book, and not the only one that has similar effects. Myths from Darjiin (another country/region of Peloria with a decidedly matrilineal or even matriarchal mythology) has some major ramifications for how one reads Dara Happan mythology too. 

Of course, as others have suggested, it might be better to read it in isolation for the first time. 

I'll argue that much like the Book of Heortling Mythology, it is not "only" interesting and engrossing as some kind of meta-commentary scholarly text, but also, to be frank, quite entertaining as a face-value collection of stories, with the added benefit that it's from cultures that are otherwise seen as mostly marginal.

[Nevermet]

2 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I'll argue that much like the Book of Heortling Mythology, it is not "only" interesting and engrossing as some kind of meta-commentary scholarly text, but also, to be frank, quite entertaining as a face-value collection of stories, with the added benefit that it's from cultures that are otherwise seen as mostly marginal.

Agreed 100%

[jajagappa]

On 4/26/2020 at 6:22 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

It's a *very* eclectic read, more understandable if you've familiarized yourself with the other background material first, but it never gets easy, per se.

It also doesn't help that Greg wrote (but only selectively shared) other Lunar documents that included his in-process thoughts of how some of this all gets synthesized into the Lunar religion.

[Nevermet]

11 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

It also doesn't help that Greg wrote (but only selectively shared) other Lunar documents that included his in-process thoughts of how some of this all gets synthesized into the Lunar religion.

The fact that they "proved" the Goddess is both Natha and Gerra is a neat trick for Pelandan religion.  I mean, I'm sure that there's much more than that, but that is a kinda mindfuck.

 

Also, given that, I'd imagine more than a few promoters of the Jernotian Way who had to be quickly removed from power as the region was lunarized.

 

EDIT: Also, i'm not entirely sure how "proving" God 1 = God 2 works, but I'd imagine some Spolites resisted the lunarization of Gerra (though not many, given they would have seen the Lunars as liberators against the Carmanians I suspect)

Edited April 27, 2020 by Nevermet

[soltakss]

9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Instead, the Entekosiad is a treatise (of sorts, in the very loose sense) seeking to prove instead that Dendara is Entekos. 

Seeking and failing.

It is in the Introduction, so doesn't really need a spoiler.

[Akhôrahil]

On 4/27/2020 at 12:42 AM, Videopete said:

Entekos is the Goddess of Virtue, Atmospheric Air and Right Air.

Also, she's kinda Molanni. I think.

[Sir_Godspeed]

3 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Also, she's kinda Molanni. I think.

And/or Serenha (Umath's only daughter). 

Possibly. 

Potentially?

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

And/or Serenha (Umath's only daughter). 

Possibly. 

Potentially?

Pretty positively; maybe even Umath's feminine parallel. Dendara is her wife.

Serenha is a Pelorian rival for the Middle Air. Her name is, uh, evocative of a certain Lunar personality who... well, she's certainly the most rival for the Middle Air.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Qizilbashwoman

[Eff]

On 4/27/2020 at 6:51 PM, Nevermet said:

The fact that they "proved" the Goddess is both Natha and Gerra is a neat trick for Pelandan religion.  I mean, I'm sure that there's much more than that, but that is a kinda mindfuck.

 

Also, given that, I'd imagine more than a few promoters of the Jernotian Way who had to be quickly removed from power as the region was lunarized.

 

EDIT: Also, i'm not entirely sure how "proving" God 1 = God 2 works, but I'd imagine some Spolites resisted the lunarization of Gerra (though not many, given they would have seen the Lunars as liberators against the Carmanians I suspect)

Well, in a certain sense, proving that a god is another god is as simple as pie. Just show that God 1 teaches secrets that only God 2 knows, that the rites of God 2 are revelatory for God 1. Of course, in another sense, if you want to make a pie from scratch, you must first create the universe...

 

Which is probably the best way to understand the Entekosiad- Valare Addi had a pie she wished to create: "Where did I go wrong when I said the Red Goddess was Dendara?" In order to make that pie, she ended up having to go back to the beginning of the universe. 

[Nevermet]

4 minutes ago, Eff said:

Well, in a certain sense, proving that a god is another god is as simple as pie. Just show that God 1 teaches secrets that only God 2 knows, that the rites of God 2 are revelatory for God 1. Of course, in another sense, if you want to make a pie from scratch, you must first create the universe...

 

Which is probably the best way to understand the Entekosiad- Valare Addi had a pie she wished to create: "Where did I go wrong when I said the Red Goddess was Dendara?" In order to make that pie, she ended up having to go back to the beginning of the universe. 

Agreed.

 

The more I think about what is "proven" regarding the mythological structure of Glorantha, the more a phrase from philosopher John Dewey comes to mind: less truth or proof and more "Warranted Assertability."  Have I done things that seem to give me permission to make a claim (aka "Does it Work?").

 

 

[Eff]

7 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

Agreed.

 

The more I think about what is "proven" regarding the mythological structure of Glorantha, the more a phrase from philosopher John Dewey comes to mind: less truth or proof and more "Warranted Assertability."  Have I done things that seem to give me permission to make a claim (aka "Does it Work?").

 

 

And of course another way to look at it is in instrumental/pragmatic terms (which is very historically appropriate for how traditional religions function/functioned). You can offer up "conclusive" proof, by taking down a couple Western scrolls and some Plentonius and so on and so forth, and laying out an impenetrable logical argument that Orlanth is necessarily an avatar of Sedenya. But until you can bring the storm with moon magic, the real storm, not the still and placid breezes of Entekos-Molanni, who's going to care except the scribes? (And of course, if/when you do bring your Moonstorm, that will definitely prompt a rather shocking, gusty rebuttal...)

[Nevermet]

1 minute ago, Eff said:

And of course another way to look at it is in instrumental/pragmatic terms (which is very historically appropriate for how traditional religions function/functioned). You can offer up "conclusive" proof, by taking down a couple Western scrolls and some Plentonius and so on and so forth, and laying out an impenetrable logical argument that Orlanth is necessarily an avatar of Sedenya. But until you can bring the storm with moon magic, the real storm, not the still and placid breezes of Entekos-Molanni, who's going to care except the scribes? (And of course, if/when you do bring your Moonstorm, that will definitely prompt a rather shocking, gusty rebuttal...)

I suddenly feel like a lot of Carmanian and Western magic feels like magic at the beginning of Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell, where Serious Magic (tm) is a theoretical exercise, and actually using magic is looked down upon by a certain type of haughty Vizier.  ....Of course, that all changes as the Lunar Empire begins to have "issues", Charg appears, and Carmania decides to save the Arrolian Properties.

 

My God.... I kinda wanna run this now.  Help.

[Sir_Godspeed]

41 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

I suddenly feel like a lot of Carmanian and Western magic feels like magic at the beginning of Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell, where Serious Magic (tm) is a theoretical exercise, and actually using magic is looked down upon by a certain type of haughty Vizier.  ....Of course, that all changes as the Lunar Empire begins to have "issues", Charg appears, and Carmania decides to save the Arrolian Properties.

 

I suspect quite a lot of sorcery - and at least definitely mysticism is like this - running around like an idiot and throwing fireballs and leaping magically is what an irresponsible madman does with his access to the Infinite. A TRUE magician works with a grander perspective (or in the case of some mysticism, an incredibly narrow perspective, to avoid entanglement).

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Eff said:

(And of course, if/when you do bring your Moonstorm, that will definitely prompt a rather shocking, gusty rebuttal...)

What is the "fall" of the Red Moon, but the breaking of the moon egg as it opens to reveal (or birth) the Moonstorm? 😉 

[Nevermet]

11 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I suspect quite a lot of sorcery - and at least definitely mysticism is like this - running around like an idiot and throwing fireballs and leaping magically is what an irresponsible madman does with his access to the Infinite. A TRUE magician works with a grander perspective (or in the case of some mysticism, an incredibly narrow perspective, to avoid entanglement).

And I can sympathize with that perspective to an extent, as it does seem almost petty to understand and know the infinite and essential forces of the universe to cast 3rd level Magic-User spells.

[Nick Brooke]

Just as an aside, one of the basics you need to master in order to succeed as a heroquester is the ability to Identify the otherworldly beings you encounter: proving to your own satisfaction (and that of the cosmos) what place they must occupy in the story you're telling, so that it goes the way you expect it to. And one of the main threats is that someone will either prove that you aren't the god or hero you thought you were (ergo: you won't succeed at doing something they could have done), or else that you are some other entity that they know how to deal with.

Grok this, and you can begin to understand Arkati creative heroquesting, the God Learners and the Red Goddess.

[Runeblogger]

58 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Just as an aside, one of the basics you need to master in order to succeed as a heroquester is the ability to Identify the otherworldly beings you encounter: proving to your own satisfaction (and that of the cosmos) what place they must occupy in the story you're telling, so that it goes the way you expect it to. And one of the main threats is that someone will either prove that you aren't the god or hero you thought you were (ergo: you won't succeed at doing something they could have done), or else that you are some other entity that they know how to deal with.

Grok this, and you can begin to understand Arkati creative heroquesting, the God Learners and the Red Goddess.

There's something of this in one of the scenarios in Pavis: Gateway to Adventure, right?

[Nick Brooke]

Almost certainly (you're thinking about the one with masks, right?). But it's fundamental to all heroquesting. If you aren't who you think you are, or your opponent isn't who you think they are, then things aren't going to go the way you expected.

 

[Nick Brooke]

A competent Arkati hacker rapidly navigating different stories could be like this bit from Burning Chrome, by William Gibson: 

Quote

"Congratulations," I heard Bobby say, "We just became an Eastern Seaboard Fission Authority inspection probe..." That meant we were clearing fiberoptic lines with the cybernetic equivalent of a fire siren, but in the simulation matrix we seemed to rush straight for Chrome's data base.

[...]

"Son of a bitch," said Bobby, "we just told Chrome we're an IRS audit and three Supreme Court subpoenas... Hang onto your ass, Jack..."

[...]

We've crashed her gates disguised as an audit and three subpoenas, but her defenses are specially geared to cope with that kind of official intrusion. Her most sophisticated ice is structured to fend off warrants, writs, subpoenas.

[...]

"Okay," says Bobby, "we're an incoming scrambler call from a pal of hers in Japan. That should help."

Ride 'em cowboy.

You keep swapping identities to blow through the heroquest waystations en route. There's risks of getting stuck pretending to be something you're not, or being unable to work out who you need to be to get through the next node. "I am Orlanth bearing a Sword; I am Humakt; I am become Death; I am the Raven; I blinded Yelm; I shall become a Bat..."

Taliesin's transformation verse is another model (though Gibsonian cyberpunk is IMO inherently cooler):

Quote

I have been a multitude of shapes,
Before I assumed a consistent form.
I have been a sword, narrow, variegated,
I have been a tear in the air,
I have been in the dullest of stars.
I have been a word among letters,
I have been a book in the origin.

Cheers, Nick

[davecake]

On 4/27/2020 at 10:34 PM, soltakss said:

It tries to prove something and ultimately fails.

That to me is in its favour. It is an honest record of her experiences, and she is learning. Valare is a more honest author than Plentonius (obviously), or the obvious propaganda of The Fortunate Succession.