Pavis Priesthood turnover since 1610

[Graeme P]

I am going to be starting a game soon where the characters are from Real City.  So the focus is more on what is going on in the Rubble and the Pavis cult than what is going in in Prax.  Luckily I have access to Ian Thomson's excellent material (full speed ahead and damn the canon!) as well as the official stuff.

in Pavs:GtA (page 368) it is stated: "At the beginning of the Lunar Occupation, there were five Priests of Pavis.  All were old men." By the time of the Pavis Box (say 1617-1618) Benderri is described as an old man and all the other priests are much younger. I note I'm leaving Ginkizzie out of this - he could be seen as an old man but most people don't think of him as human.

So what happened to the other old priests?

They might have died of natural causes, but the Lunars might have ensured that there was a vacancy for Cyrilius Harmonious as well. As they were all old, I can't see them adventuring so any misadventure inthe Rubble would only have occurred in trips between Real City and New Pavis, or perhaps if they visited Mani's Fort.

So I'm reaching out to the community to see if anyone has information or ideas.  Given the characters will have grown up in Real City and would have been alive when all this happened it may be that they remember the events.  Or one of the late priests was a much-loved relative ... or any other plot hook that can be included in their family histories.

The second part of this is that all the other priests have been promoted since 1610.  Cyrilius is the newest priest and was assisted into the position by the Lunars, so there was most likely a deliberate hiring rush of new priests before him so that there is an established hierarchy of younger, healthy and competent priests ahead of him. All of this makes his chances of becoming the Son of Pavis much more remote.  So there would have been a flurry of five new Daughters of Pavis (say) in the years from 1610 to 1615.

As before, looking for anyone with a greater knowledge than I (or even interesting ideas on how to have the past impact the game).

 

[metcalph]

3 hours ago, Graeme P said:

They might have died of natural causes, but the Lunars might have ensured that there was a vacancy for Cyrilius Harmonious as well. As they were all old, I can't see them adventuring so any misadventure inthe Rubble would only have occurred in trips between Real City and New Pavis, or perhaps if they visited Mani's Fort.

The outside steps of the Temple of New Pavis look like a likely place for old people to trip and fall.  Just saying...

 

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, Graeme P said:

The second part of this is that all the other priests have been promoted since 1610.  Cyrilius is the newest priest and was assisted into the position by the Lunars, so there was most likely a deliberate hiring rush of new priests before him so that there is an established hierarchy of younger, healthy and competent priests ahead of him. All of this makes his chances of becoming the Son of Pavis much more remote.  So there would have been a flurry of five new Daughters of Pavis (say) in the years from 1610 to 1615.

Cyrilius became the newest priest after Sor-eel had stablized his hold on the city, with a re-arranged city council, and possibly a new mayor. Bendrath filled the seventh position even after Cyrilius joined the Daughters of Pavis.

Ginkizzie and Benderri are the leftover priests from pre-occupation times, Bilkar might be, too, or he might be the immediate replacement of the daughter previously in charge of the Real City.

Fleeter Nemm and Broosta then would have risen to their rank of Daughters of Pavis more or less at the same time as Cyrilius.

Thus we have two or three casualties. Some may have been victims of the one day resistance, or of the mutiny of the defenders realistically assessing the likelihood of a successful defense against Sor-eel's army. After that, one or two may have been victims of the purges of the ruling families - Pavis history mentions decimation of the ruling Yelmalian family, and extinction of (most of) the descendants of Dorasar, but there will have been victims from other families. One other casualty of the Lunar takeover were the leading families of Zebra Fort, who got replaced by Hargran the Dirty in Zebraside and by the Patroma family in New Pavis.

 

How did one become a Daughter (or Son) of Pavis prior to the Lunar occupation?

I guess that most priests of Pavis are part of a stakeholder group in the cult of the city god. Old Pavisite families probably still have a larger influence inside the cult than their proportion of the population would suggest.

I suppose that Cyrilius Harmonius has more or less inherited the representation of the Zebra folk in the cult, and he may actually be the go-to person for any remaining Zebra people. Between him, Hargar, and Lunar-sponsored horse breeders (presumably from Jillaro) trying to return the zebras in large numbers to the city, the non-noble zebra folk might actually prosper somewhat, while their former nobility either rides with the Zebra tribe of the plains or with the Pol Joni like their ancestor Olgkarth did before allying with Dorasar.

(Disclaimer: I am quite partial to Cyrilius Harmonius, not the least since I got to play him in the 1997 run of "People of Pavis" at the first convention named "Tentacles" at Castle Stahleck, our second convention in that location and the first organized by Fabian.)

But then, the original inhabitants of Zebra Fort had not been accepting of Olgkarth, and while the ruling family of Zebra Fort had been deposed by Olgkarth and Dorasar in a nightly raid, it is possible that a majority of the Zebra Fort families regarded Olgkarth and his tribal folk as unwelcome new overlords. It is quite likely that Cyrilius Harmonius comes from one of these older families, possibly from the family of the previous rulers of Zebra Fort.

I suppose that prior to Olgkarth's arrival alongside Dorasar, the Zebra Fort nobility may have had a tentative claim on one of the Daughters' position. Whether that position was actually filled at the time of the conquest is different question, though. Depending on whether you include Ginkizzie in the Five Old Men who made up the priesthood of Pavis up to 1610, there was either one vacancy or two in the numbers of Daughters of Pavis. Prior to Bendrath's consecration as the sixth Daughter of Pavis, there had not been a full complement of priests for a while. This indicates a decline in the prosperity of New Pavis as the value of artifacts recovered from the city slowly declined, or at least the market value as the novelty factor was diluted by increased availability of everyday items from the EWF-influenced period.

Broosta is a priestess of Lhankor Mhy, and probably related to some of the Old Pavisite families that dominate the local cult - people whom I portray as wearing zebra hide or zebra fur ornamentation in their robes or other clothing to showcase their Old Pavic origins.

Her husband Fleeter Nemm appears to be of Sartarite stock, probably from among the converts to Pavis among Dorasar's followers who would have been the newcomers' representation in the cult. It is not much of a logical leap to suggest that the dead or retired former priests of Pavis would have been those with ties to the Dorasar family or the Sartarite newcomers.

Bilkar is a resident of the Real City, so he is in all likelihood of Old Pavic descent. Bendrath on the other hand is a former adventurer and may have come from Sartar or beyond.

 

The fate of the Dorasar family is unclear. The Pavis history states that "none  of  his  heirs  could  take  the  title,  nor  could
any  other. After  the  Duke’s  death,  the  city  was ruled by a council of its leaders, each aware of the others  and  of  their  part  in  the  whole.  The  Pavis cult  gave  guidance." (e.g. ISS 1604 Pavis and Big Rubble p.63)

King of Sartar gives us the name of the most outstanding son of Dorasar, Daringle, and Pavis, and describes him as a warlord, vanquisher of ancient ghosts, and successful treasure hunter. (p33)

The genealogical chart of Eonistaran's descendants on p.37 gives Daringle's death date as 1624, but that is contradicted by Pavis GTA which reports him slain by Lunar spirits or demons (or perhaps Gimgim) in 1610. It also mentions Verlain, the father of Brenna, and grandfather of Enostar Bad-Dream aka "Argrath of Pavis". It is quite likely that Dorasar's family was a lot more extensive than this.

GTA p.180 tells us that Daringle's son Orvost Tintalker or Dornold Orvost is the High Priest of Orlanth for Pavis and the Rubble, hiding out in the ruins and keeping the regalia of the High Priest out of reach of Falticus.

[soltakss]

7 hours ago, Graeme P said:

So what happened to the other old priests?

If we are talking pre-Argrath, then some of the Priests could have retired. although it could be a job for life, politics comes into play and some of them could be persuaded to live out their lives in comfort to make way for new blood.

The various factions all want to get someone onto the priesthood. The Lunars have Cyrillius Harmonious, but always want to increase their influence. The Old Pavisites want all the Priests to be from their background. The Orlanthi Rebels want Priests who sympathise with them or are from Orlanthi background. The old Orlanthi, who come from families associated with Dorasor, might be aligned with the Rebels but would have a different agenda. The River folk want representation from their people. Non-aligned newcomers might want a Priest who sympathises with them.

As the events leading up to the Hero Wars start to come into motion, the Priesthood needs to change and react, a bit of a problem for a cult with Stasis in its makeup. Better to change the Old Guard and bring in new Priests who are more suitable to the situation.

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

The outside steps of the Temple of New Pavis look like a likely place for old people to trip and fall.  Just saying...

Falling down stairs is a traditional way of changes to the Priesthood, as is wanting to spend more time with the family.

[MOB]

6 hours ago, metcalph said:

The outside steps of the Temple of New Pavis look like a likely place for old people to trip and fall.  Just saying...

 

Those steep steps got very icy during the Great Winter too; nasty place for undernourished old folks to be clambering about, especially in those heavy ceremonial vestments...

[Graeme P]

Thanks for the replies.  I'm impressed with Joerg's knowledge levels, and was already indebted to soltakss because I have been using the stuff he did 15 years ago about a Pavis campaign timeline as a base of what happens when.

Having the priests of a stasis rune cult knocked off via causing such precipitious movement seems likely to succeed only occasionally. I'm also struggling with it being a random reason for death as part of the family history of a character as it is such an unremarkable way to die (absent any foul play) - not enough excitement and gossip comes from a mere slip of the foot perhaps.  As the Temple is dwarf-built, it would reflect very poorly on Ginkizzie if the Temple itself is unsafe. So I'm not wholly convinced.

I can see that the appearance of Cyrilius in New Pavis would have hastened the Pavis priests towards bringing Fleeter Nemm in to have a younger priest and persuading Broosta to do her duty by the old families in Real City to support their faction and Fleeter's position pretty much as soon as they both quailifed (after a quick course of masonry classes?).  That would have filled the ranks to a full set of seven priests allowing them to delay any new priests as being not needed.  So Sor-Eel needed to create a vacany or two ... 

If the first vacancy was filled by Bilkar (a member of the Real City faction) and the priests had him ready to be promoted then the first old man priest might have been able to retire before he was removed.  Logically, Sor-Eel is much more likely to have had a hand in creating the second vacancy (filled by Cyrillius if Joerg is right that he was appointed before Bendrath).

So I think that the first old man might have either retired (if that was a thing) or been dealt with, the second most definitely met an unfortunate end and only the last of the three unknown elderly priests had an unremarkable death.

And from the above I now have an order of events, of a sort.

The above timeline makes Cyrilius senior to Bendrath.  The two most likely priests that characters would deal with would be Bendrath and Fleeter; however Fleeter has a lot of responsibility and so Bendrath is more likely. This adds to any clandestine nature of any goings-on if Bendrath has to be careful about his responsibilites to all more senior priests.

[Erol of Backford]

Is there any source for Pavis coming out of the temple and having relations with say an Elf maiden, her having a child in more recent years. Why would this not be possible if you don't think so and why not?

The idea would be that the elf mother either keeps the info from the child (who the real father is or doesn't herself know it was Pavis) or leaves the child with others to be raised with the child/PC not knowing that they are an actual "Daughter of Pavis".

It would be cool or so I am thinking, to have the PC come to Pavis and through some long-term plot find out they are Pavis' daughter. 

Anyone care to give some thought as to how this could come to pass beside, sounds fun or impossible?

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, Erol of Backford said:

Is there any source for Pavis coming out of the temple and having relations with say an Elf maiden, her having a child in more recent years. Why would this not be possible if you don't think so and why not?

There have been efforts by the Pavis priesthood after the Dragonewts Dream to marry the city god to deities and their (female) avatars, at least as far as the Red Goddess is concerned. A similar re-marriage to Aldrya of the Garden by Real City priests to re-enliven the Rubble might be possible. (Marrying Yelorna is a rather hopeless endeavor, but might be a fun  project for a group of player characters. Possibly already under Soeel's governorship, following

Spoiler

the raid on the Yelorna temple scenario in the Big Rubble box.

)

1 minute ago, Erol of Backford said:

The idea would be that the elf mother either keeps the info from the child (who the real father is or doesn't herself know it was Pavis) or leaves the child with others to be raised with the child/PC not knowing that they are an actual "Daughter of Pavis".

It would be cool or so I am thinking, to have the PC come to Pavis and through some long-term plot find out they are Pavis' daughter. 

In order not to be immediately noticable, there would have to be a bunch of human/aldryami crossbreeds in your Glorantha. In my Glorantha, the mothers would be dryads rather than female brown or green elves, and the offspring would be hardly recognizable as not entirely human on one end (much like Lord Pavis himself apparently was) or look like the animated wooden doll that was the reborn

Spoiler

Urrgh the Ugly, on the Cradle

or a reborn Durev (basically man-sized Pinocchio) with a veneer-patterned skin.

When (if at all) did the Pavis cult receive a small Lune as the last complement of its summonable elementals through the marriage with the Red Goddess in your Glorantha? That union would have brought an interesting child of the city god, with Lunar cyclical powers. Possibly more interesting in the long run than a half-elf.

Unless you are playing an elf game in the Garden, with a quarter-human daughter of the Founder being brought up by the Gardeners, and aldryami from elsewhere and possibly some elf-friend humanoids of other ancestry (perhaps including Beastmen, maybe even Morag from Biturian's travels) tasked with guarding the child and at the time of adulthood claiming her inheritance.

 

1 minute ago, Erol of Backford said:

Anyone care to give some thought as to how this could come to pass beside, sounds fun or impossible?

Everything is possible if you allow your Glorantha to vary more or less strongly from official publications. Even more so if that official material hasn't even been laid out yet and all we know is from that 2019 Kraken panel video, making any game playing after the period covered in Pavis: Gateway to Adventure complete speculation.

In your 1600 ST campaign, all of this can happen before the imperial shadow even falls on the city, or you could have that child born around the same time as Morag.

[Darius West]

On 10/18/2020 at 4:38 PM, metcalph said:

The outside steps of the Temple of New Pavis look like a likely place for old people to trip and fall.  Just saying...

Someone should heroquest to provide the Pavis cult with associated cult status for Ohs (goddess of safety) and access to the Rune Spell "Ease of Access".

[Graeme P]

I thought that Flintnail masons were involved in building the Temple.  Surely as they are strong in the Statis rune they are masters of non-slip marble!

[JRE]

It is all the fault of that slippery olive oil soap the Lunar traders bring from Kethaela. But it looks so nice clean... Nothing like the rancid bison lard we used earlier.

[David Scott]

On 5/22/2022 at 8:29 PM, Erol of Backford said:

Is there any source for Pavis coming out of the temple and having relations with say an Elf maiden, her having a child in more recent years. Why would this not be possible if you don't think so and why not?

On 5/22/2022 at 8:29 PM, Erol of Backford said:

The idea would be that the elf mother either keeps the info from the child (who the real father is or doesn't herself know it was Pavis) or leaves the child with others to be raised with the child/PC not knowing that they are an actual "Daughter of Pavis".

It would be cool or so I am thinking, to have the PC come to Pavis and through some long-term plot find out they are Pavis' daughter. 

Anyone care to give some thought as to how this could come to pass beside, sounds fun or impossible?

Considering that the Real City temple where Pavis resides is not far from the Garden, and who really knows what goes on out in the Rubble. 

[g33k]

Mmmmm!  Tasty necromancy!
 

On 10/17/2020 at 7:08 PM, Graeme P said:

... I can't see them adventuring so any misadventure inthe Rubble would only have occurred in trips between Real City and New Pavis, or perhaps if they visited Mani's Fort ...

I've gotta say -- my version of the Rubble includes more random violence & wandering-monster action; the very-young, very-old, and other frail individuals are at substantial risk anywhere outside the most-protected parts of their factions' enclaves.

[Erol of Backford]

I thought Pavis actually still lived in the temple as a divine if not, nearly-divine half-elf sorcerer who animated the Faceless Stature which wounded Waha? I'd say he wouldn't be frail unless he had aged like the vampires in Shadows on the Borderland? (I always thought feeble senile jabbering vampires at a carnival would be funny but off topic.) Maybe a good plot hook? But Pavis is surely not undead. Also if he had 100's of years to develop his sorcery skills he could, fly, teleport, whatever easily enough from the temple to the Garden? He'd not be at risk I assume?

[jajagappa]

3 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

I thought Pavis actually still lived in the temple as a divine

Wherever Pavis is within his temple, you have to figure that place is actually in the Otherworld, not the mundane.  He's gone beyond being a hero to being a god, so you won't see him as able to step into or directly interact in the mundane world.

[Erol of Backford]

Just curious how tall was the faceless statue? I saw a plan of Pavis with it prone I assume over the location of the quarry?

[David Scott]

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Just curious how tall was the faceless statue?

2800m based on Pavis GTA maps.

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I saw a plan of Pavis with it prone I assume over the location of the quarry?

Head is over the real city, right elbow mani's fort, left foot main quarry. It basically covers the middle of the big rubble. Not over the north quarry.

[Erol of Backford]

So Fleeter Nemm says something as the PC's are leaving his office to go questing...
 

Spoiler

in the Devil's Playground. Who is he saying it to, who is he saying it about and what does it mean. Do I need to reread the entire Pavis & the Big Rubble to understand what is relates to? Sorry if I am being daft.

 

[David Scott]

40 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

So Fleeter Nemm says something as the PC's are leaving his office to go questing...

It's one of the party members who (might well) say it of Nemm. If the player-characters abscond, they must run hard and fast with an eye to their rear, for he will relentlessly pursue them throughout Prax if they betray him. Likewise if after all that there would be treasure, not just a look around for the info he wants, it would be nice...

[Erol of Backford]

Ah, read it as observe was to hear so I thought saying to someone else. Thank you Mr. Scott.

[Darius West]

On 5/27/2022 at 5:27 PM, David Scott said:

2800m based on Pavis GTA maps.

Head is over the real city, right elbow mani's fort, left foot main quarry. It basically covers the middle of the big rubble. Not over the north quarry.

I am concerned that there isn't any part of the statue over North Quarry, and only a leg over Main Quarry.  Wasn't the whole point of the quarries that they were mining out the statue according to lore?

[David Scott]

32 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I am concerned that there isn't any part of the statue over North Quarry, and only a leg over Main Quarry.  Wasn't the whole point of the quarries that they were mining out the statue according to lore?

Your concern is noted. See the quarry entries in Big Rubble. It's clear to me that the dwarfs must have broken up the and moved it to free Zola Fel from flooding the grazing and to facilitate building along the river.

[Lordabdul]

My half-assed theory is that the statue's left hand is missing (from that P:GTA map above, it looks severed at the wrist to me). So the hand, and whatever it was holding, might have been where the North Quarry is. That's where people started, because somehow the statue fell with something very very cool in its left hand. But it's now gone, or buried, or underwater, somewhere nearby.

[Ian A. Thomson]

On 1/20/2023 at 8:30 PM, Darius West said:

I am concerned that there isn't any part of the statue over North Quarry, and only a leg over Main Quarry.  Wasn't the whole point of the quarries that they were mining out the statue according to lore?

Yup. This is a great image, but itself doesn't tally with the strongly implied quarry lore from the original books, or with what Greg told me - that the Real City Pavis Temple is the head of the statue (as it is significantly smaller in scale than the image here indicates)

There is so much complex and rich background lore that some is bound to be contradicted by accident. Plus a lot is open to interpretation. Maybe the statue exploded and big chunks went everywhere? :)

My Pavis and Rubble varies from the official in a few intentional ways, but I always did massive amounts of background research to try not to contradict anything I didn't need to. And it takes a lot of extra time, so I can empathise with things being missed

I try to follow the improv rule that if something is strongly implied it's probably true, but not always of course

Edited February 1, 2023 by Ian A. Thomson

[Ian A. Thomson]

On 1/20/2023 at 9:40 PM, David Scott said:

It's clear to me that the dwarfs must have broken up the and moved it to free Zola Fel from flooding the grazing and to facilitate building along the river.

I see a scene now of dwarfs and the peculiar Old Pavis jolanti in lines all heaving on cables, dragging these huge chunks of statue across the rubble to a more convenient place to quarry it, and I love the image

But checking my notes I also like the idea I am currently going with, that the statue exploded into uneven chunks and small and large fragments that blasted out across the landscape and embedded themselves deep in the earth

Also in a magical way, as part of an earth magic experience