Hero Points, or Hero Soul, the new Heroquesting mechanic

[PhilHibbs]

In the latest episode of The White Bull Campaign (released last Saturday, so there might be a new one now) is all about the rewards from Heroquesting.

The gist is that you spend POW and gain Hero Points, or Hero Soul, or Soul Points, I like Hero Soul. These points can be used to power spell-like abilities that you gain while Heroquesting, that are related to what you did on the quest.

They can be used to power your Rune magic spells, just like Rune Points, and I guess if you are a member of two Rune cults then this might be a way of getting points that you can use for either, rather than having to choose which Rune Pool to add to.

The down side is, they don't come back when you worship.

You have to get some people in your cult to incorporate the thing that you did on the Heroquest into their worship. So they are kind of worshipping you, or at least worshipping or giving thanks for the deeds that you did.

The up side is, like a fetch, these Hero Soul points add to your defence against incoming spells.

This is the time code in the episode where Jeff starts to talk about it.

 

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

These points can be used to power spell-like abilities that you gain while Heroquesting, that are related to what you did on the quest.

And while these spell-like abilities may be similar/same as cult Rune spells, they are outside of any specific cult - they are related to your heroquest.  The challenge is finding a place where folk can come and worship your deeds (or possibly you), and of course getting folk to actually come and worship (presumably with some expectation of benefit).

---NOTE: spoilers below---highlight text to see.

For example, Gina Gravedancer gained the Harmonize spell, tied to her Harmony rune.  Kulbrast gained a Trickster spell, Group Laughter.  A couple of the characters actually wounded Jar-eel and gained the spell Cancel Glowspot (very useful if going into the Lunar Empire! or encountering the Crimson Bat...).  And at least one character gained the spell Summon Specific Spirit (not Ancester, mind you, but ANY spirit from Hell - has to be named though). 

-----------------------------

[Eff]

One interesting question: does the hero-cult have to be of the hero specifically, or can it be of a hero band as a whole? Presumably, for game purposes, you'd want to limit the amount of Hero Soul regained in each ceremony, perhaps based on how many people participate or how much they sacrifice. (And of course, sacrificing parts of one's Hero Soul to worship an even greater Hero might well allow for some truly spectacular magical results, but such an Am Way is surely disfavored for reasons of basic taste and decency, and no player characters would ever contemplate such a thing...)

And on the other hand, existing hero-cults seem to give a single Rune spell, so perhaps they do have to be of a specific person, or rather if they honor a historical fusion of multiple people, it's a fusion of people with similar enough magic to give a coherent Rune spell...

[French Desperate WindChild]

There are some questions deriving these rules (I may miss answer in this great part of the white bull campaign)

 

- can you fail to use your hero "power" ? (seems to me Kallyr failed against Enkala ?) in this case what is the roll ? a rune ? Are some hero power automatic (like shaman abilities) and other rollable (like rune spells) I would say that passive power could be automatic (you a gain a bonus of characteristic, AP, HP, ...) and active power could be rolled (fire ball for example). Maybe only an opposition roll target pow versus hero's ...someting   ?

- as @Eff said, what is the "regain" calculation rule.

- what about an hero with two very different heroic deed then two diferrent worshipers ? for example, you swim faster after an heroquest to help a river community. You are a really hero for them and they worship you. Two years later, far from the river, you succeed to help a snow troll community, gaining the "digest stone" hyperpower (you can eat as a troll) and the troll worship you too. Is there only one hero point pool ? One by community ? One by ability ?

3 hours ago, Eff said:

does the hero-cult have to be of the hero specifically, or can it be of a hero band as a whole?

I would say a hero band can be worshipped (seven mothers for example) but as I m not a chaosium designer, it should be defined too in the long-awaited rules

 

In any case, that's sounds good, I like this way, and the need to obtain the worship of other is an incredible good idea

[jajagappa]

10 hours ago, Eff said:

One interesting question: does the hero-cult have to be of the hero specifically, or can it be of a hero band as a whole?

Likely either.  In the White Bull campaign that was shown, the Humakti was creating a small shrine for himself in the Boldhome Humakt temple but I think others were planning to create little images/shrines in the White Bull shrine they maintain in Pavis.  But no mechanism for how that would work yet - my guess is that if you do something collectively, then you only get a part of the worship funneled to you.

7 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

- can you fail to use your hero "power" ? (seems to me Kallyr failed against Enkala ?) in this case what is the roll ? a rune ?

Yes, that clearly happened with Kallyr against Enkala.  I think these function like Rune spells so the roll is against the Rune that the power is associated with. 

7 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

- what about an hero with two very different heroic deed then two diferrent worshipers ? for example, you swim faster after an heroquest to help a river community. You are a really hero for them and they worship you. Two years later, far from the river, you succeed to help a snow troll community, gaining the "digest stone" hyperpower (you can eat as a troll) and the troll worship you too. Is there only one hero point pool ?

I'm sure you only have one Hero Point pool.  If you create multiple shrines with different groups worshiping your different deeds then you're receiving the worship and replenishing your Hero points.  How you subsequently use those will vary.

Think of yourself as a deity with one or two primary Runes.  Your powers might be largely based on the Water Rune (Swim Fast, Erode Stone) or might be based on two Runes such as Water and Movement.  Worship by the two communities may focus on the specific deed, but that is simply because that is what they are aware of.  They may learn subsequently as they call upon you for aid that you in fact have the additional power (i.e. they succeeded in their Cult Lore roll!).

Edited February 7, 2021 by jajagappa

[Joerg]

Will that hero cult grant some tangible benefit like a spirit cult?

[PhilHibbs]

There are no mechanics presented yet for Hero Soul point regain.

If I were writing a rule for when you have used some points and want to regain them, I'd say you boast about your deeds at a holy day worship ceremony, make a roll like Orate or Worship, and then you get some points back. I'd have to come up with a scale like the one for RP regain. At some point, a group of grateful fans would start celebrating your deeds (or praying that you don't come around boring or threatening them) off their own initiative.

As Jeff said, Harrek gets most of his HS points by people praying he doesn't come back. Like Euron Greyjoy, "From Ib to Asshai, when men see my sails, they pray."

Edited February 7, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[jajagappa]

17 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Barrel gets most of his HS points by people

Autocorrected Harrek? I'm sure he'd appreciate that nickname! 😉

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Will that hero cult grant some tangible benefit like a spirit cult?

Will you gift your followers with your deeds or magic?  Think that's up to the PC to decide, but if they don't... well, fans are fickle.

[Richard S.]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Will that hero cult grant some tangible benefit like a spirit cult?

Given some stuff Jeff and others have said previously, I think any benefit the cult gives is decided by you. It can't be anything like Rune magic - until you're a permanent fixture in the God world, you can't be the source of magic - but you can teach your skills and Spirit magic and other powers that can be taught.

[jajagappa]

57 minutes ago, Runeblade said:

Here it stalled play - and it didn’t feel entirely positive, maybe because the mechanics had to be stressed too much for something so mystical.
Perhaps that is the biggest critique of it - that it wasn’t presented in more mystical terms with the actual gift mechanics held as a surprise

I think two aspects here:  one, it was a new mechanic so not surprising that it required discussion; and two, it was occurring in downtime so not surprising that it was less 'mystical'. 

The overall mechanic is not fundamentally different from Rune points, so I don't think that will be a barrier to play.  And as players become used to the idea of heroquesting on the Other Side, and what a heroquest means to their players, I think this will all smooth out. 

1 hour ago, Runeblade said:

While I understand the concept of getting people to worship you, it undermines a bit of what a hero is.

Does it though?  Is not the heroic a role where you lead people?  And just like being a Rune Lord or Priest, or a shaman, there is a cost in terms of service in taking on that role.  I think this is actually a very important piece in order to keep in from becoming an exercise in accumulating many rewards with no cost to the hero.  And if the character does not want to be a hero, then they've got an interesting one-time ability and can return to normal life.

But, I think overall we need to wait and see it when fully presented.  We're getting glimpses of the mechanic and capabilities, but do not yet have the whole.

[French Desperate WindChild]

7 hours ago, Runeblade said:

My point was I would play out the rewards of something that big in a more dramatic way. I wouldn’t want to play it out as a discussion of the players strategic spell options either, all mechanics, especially during downtime.

And I fully agree with you. But there are two things : RP and GP.

Some  like to "act" more than to "roll". Some like the opposite. And some like both (I likes both)

. Each table has its pleasure. What I think interesting here is you can choose :

- you consider that creating/convincing a community of worshipers to regain hero point is not interesting  => roll an Orate , pay to have some temple facility, and that's good, you can have x points by season / year (same system than worship ceremony for your runepool, just another skill)

- you consider that social interaction is an important part of the game => manage one or two full sessions to create your own worshipers, and every sacred time, determine/play how the community evolves.

- you consider that exploring the possible powers is very interesting => manage the "heroquest" and react as what the players do, how they explain they are able to grab  the runes essence of the other planes to do what they do, then, the table can create a myth and a power. And this myth and this power is the material to teach to the community

- you consider that exploring the possible powers is not interesting => define what could be the power (some actual or homemade spell / abitlity) and give your player one of them (or give the opportunity to choose among a list)

 

8 hours ago, Runeblade said:

Maximus, in Gladiator, does not seek to be worshipped as a hero

but Maximus is just "human"

What I understand is there are two notions of Hero :

the hero as a leader. Maximus is this kind of hero. In glorantha, this kind of hero is runelord / priest, blessed by the god (using the magic of the god), acclaimed by the people.

the hero as a super power person. In glorantha this kind of hero has heroic power, gained in heroic plan, using the magic by herself. But to "stay powerful" the hero needs that people believe she is a hero, in the same way that a god is powerful when people believe it is powerful.

so

8 hours ago, Runeblade said:

(...) Can you lose your boon by failing as a hero figure for your people? Can the stakes become higher that way? Will your reputation go up, but can you also lose your good standing more easily? (...)

yes. And that 's for me the interest of the proposed draft rules:

if it is a table pleasure (aka not only roll, but act), the player hero must work to keep his community in a "good" standing, to continue to have his powers up. That is a big opportunity of roleplay for those who like it (and for the others, pay silver and roll orate) (and for me, roleplay, pay silver, and maybe, roll orate 😛 )

 

7 hours ago, Runeblade said:

and the gods give me something

that is the hero as a leader (rune spell / gift / geas) , not the hero who grabs a power (hero soul).

The second one gives something the god when he  is worshipped as a subcult of the god.

 

 

7 hours ago, Runeblade said:

the drama and myth comes first.

definitly agree

 

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by French Desperate WindChild

[PhilHibbs]

8 hours ago, Runeblade said:

Is “bragging” about your deeds in order for people to worship you heroic or being a leader? “Hello everyone, I made a heroic deed and now you should light candles for me because I’m worth it.”

Well, if you are modest about your achievements, and don't like to boast, then you could just hire bards and skalds to sing about how modest you are.

Edited February 8, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Austin]

On 2/6/2021 at 4:05 PM, PhilHibbs said:

The up side is, like a fetch, these Hero Soul points add to your defence against incoming spells.

Do we know how this (or Hero Soul in general) interacts with a shaman's fetch?

[PhilHibbs]

4 minutes ago, Crel said:

Do we know how this (or Hero Soul in general) interacts with a shaman's fetch?

Jeff commented on the similarity to a fetch, and how that is frustrating for shamans to have two things to spend POW on, but the two both add in this respect.

[Joerg]

Finding things to spend POW on isn't hard. There are wyters, enchantments, spirit cults, DI or rune points/fetches/inscriptions... The amount of POW you can put into rune points (per cult) is (artificially?) limited by CHA. Sorcerers or shamans aren't limited in the number of POW they invest in their respective POW receptables.

I wonder in what ways being worshiped as a hero reduces your freedom to act. Do you gain new passions of Obligation (own cult) or something like that? Is it more like a rune you develop, one outside of the normal core runes?

[kr0p0s]

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Well, if you are modest about your achievements, and don't like to boast, then you could just hire bards and skalds to sing about how modest you are.

Be careful about your choice of skald. He may be a Eurmali in disguise

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I wonder in what ways being worshiped as a hero reduces your freedom to act. Do you gain new passions of Obligation (own cult) or something like that? Is it more like a rune you develop, one outside of the normal core runes?

that is interesting. Now you have people who believe what you are.

Does that mean you lose your free will ? I don't think so : you are not subject of the compromise, your are both in mundane and hero plane.

But probably when your cult is well established (aka several worshippers have "your" cult lore > x%) you may follow (at least ostensibly) what they think. If not, you disturb them, some worshippers may leave your cult, and your "power" will be reduced.

Without rules, I would probably manage this by rp and bonus / malus : How did you built your cult / myth / legend versus what the worshipers experiment when they hear / meet  / reenact (woo, you are probably dead or god when it happens)  you

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Finding things to spend POW on isn't hard. There are wyters, enchantments, spirit cults, DI or rune points/fetches/inscriptions...

I don't think adventurers will be giving much to wyters. That's a job for people who don't have much else to spend it on. Enchantments, I think also that's something that adventurers should be leaning on people for. I just saved your village from a giant boar. Well, how about a few of you helping out with making this enchantment I've been wanting...

Maybe I've strayed from this thread's purpose into the munchkinnery thread...

Edited February 8, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Finding things to spend POW on isn't hard. There are wyters, enchantments, spirit cults, DI or rune points/fetches/inscriptions... The amount of POW you can put into rune points (per cult) is (artificially?) limited by CHA. Sorcerers or shamans aren't limited in the number of POW they invest in their respective POW receptables.

I wonder in what ways being worshiped as a hero reduces your freedom to act. Do you gain new passions of Obligation (own cult) or something like that? Is it more like a rune you develop, one outside of the normal core runes?

Whether the system will be strong for PCs will depend on the combination of how good the powers are and how annoying the points are to get back, one imagines.

And at the very least, the people worshiping you will probably expect some kind of consistency from you? Although as Arkat showed, you can always ditch them and pick up a new following when you change...

Edited February 8, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[PhilHibbs]

When it comes to fear-based worship, I wonder how the hero knows who is praying that they don't come pillage them, so as not to do so. Or is it one of those things that "just mysteriously works", as in, the ones that the player-pirate-heroes choose to go raid are retroactively the ones that didn't pray?

In a similar vein, for example, I imagine a bunch of players might choose an enemy to go spring a surprise raid on, only to find that they just happened to have completed a Summons of Evil and are lying in ambush...

Edited February 8, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Joerg]

30 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't think adventurers will be giving much to wyters. That's a job for people who don't have much else to spend it on.

Unless it is the adventurers who establish a new wyter. Other people surely join in, but the initial upfront payment may be from the adventurers.

Also, adventurers carrying a wyter along into a dark place (like say Snake Pipe Hollow, adding people to a Guided Teleport for a few points of POW can be cheaper than a Divine Intervention (which may be blocked anyway in an enemy temple).

 

30 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Enchantments, I think also that's something that adventurers should be leaning on people for. I just saved your village from a giant boar. Well, how about a few of you helping out with making this enchantment I've been wanting...

If the adventurer happens to be the enchanter, at least one point of POW is going out, too. DIY has some advantages wrt when and with what conditions the item will be enchanted.

 

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

how to gain new power without a god : become a hero, the rules are under construction

how to gain quickly more pow(er) : become a demi god, the rules are planned

 

[Dissolv]

I like the concept -- having an awakened soul expanding your personal footprint on the God's Plane.

The mechanics are a bit tricky.  First there is the obvious backlog of PoW.  Mechanically PoW is the ultimate resource for doing serious things, and it isn't just the Shaman that can get overtasked on that point. 

Second there is the chicken and the egg problem.  Sure, Theseus may have shrines to him in ancient Greece.  Got it.  But he had to do the heroic deed in the first place to get that proprietary worship.  So what good is the spiritual acclaim of the people?  He was already heroic enough to tackle the Minotaur in his maze, found Athens, what have you.  The PC's are presumably capable of doing whatever heroic deed that they have done before anyone sets up a shrine to them, so what's it for?  Harrek is the obvous question mark to me here.  How did he get so awesome as to be able to kill his own God and wear his skin around in the first place?  Having done so, and added the Bear god's power to his, what can a couple of farmers sacrificing magic points to him at Sacred Time conceivably do for him, that he cannot do for himself?

That comes back to the concept of the hero (as I see it).  The hero is supposed to step outside society, do some great deed, and ideally bring the fruits of the labor back to the community.  The community doesn't empower the hero like it does in the current, Heroquest-ish conception of Runequest.  The Hero empowers the community.  That's also how I have always experienced Runequest mechanics.  The Players achieve some level of greatness -- previously this was Rune level, skill mastery, lots of stored power, spirits, items, etc., giving them the power to make a difference against the main problems facing the community.  The community may help them along the way by training or spell teaching, or loaning them important clan treasures, but fundamentally the heroism was from the players doing something for the community that the community could not otherwise accomplish. 

As such, I would split up the means to heroic power into a couple of mechanisms.  Someone trying to follow Yelm as faithfully as possible could, and maybe should have a different mechanism than a player looking to become independently powerful from the Gods.  (See Harrek).   

At core, the big thing is that the players get a resource independent of the gods as it stands.  Them needing to convince (or just have high enough reputation that it happens naturally) others to offer worship to them seems superfluous for a living hero.  To bring them or their powers back from the other side -- sure, that makes sense.  That's how Rune worship works.  But when the hero himself is walking around, still doing his deeds, that seems like it's all him.  He is generating the power that others might later tap into (ignore the term) by worship.  

Just my 2 cents.

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, Dissolv said:

I like the concept -- having an awakened soul expanding your personal footprint on the God's Plane.

 

You make some good points.

My view is that a Hero doesn't become a Hero and stop, their presence on the Her Plane slowly increases as they get more and more Heroic and bind themselves into the mythical fabric of Glorantha.

10 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Well, if you are modest about your achievements, and don't like to boast, then you could just hire bards and skalds to sing about how modest you are.

Like Brave, Brave Sir Robin.

 

[Shiningbrow]

Does Prince Philip have a Hero Soul? (there's a tribe in Vanuatu where he's worshipped).

Does Trump have a Hero Soul? (There was(?) a guy in India who worshipped him...)

 

And what do they get in return?