Open Seas - sorcery

[Godlearner]

Quote

 

Open Seas

Water, Command

Ritual, Passive, Duration (Special)

This spell takes ten minutes to cast. It must be cast each time the ship weighs anchor or casts off. If the spell fails, then the moment the ship leaves sight of land, the Closing reaffirms itself and brings catastrophe to the vessel. All open-seas sailors everywhere in Glorantha know this ritual or else have an expert on the ship that knows it. Otherwise, blue water sea travel would be impossible. 

 

Since this is a Sorcery spell and you need to have at least insight into the water Rune and Command technique, how could any sailor cast it? It seems that every ship would need at least one fully fledged sorcerer onboard to venture into open seas, or at least a sorcerer in the harbor to cast it at departure. 

[Richard S.]

12 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Since this is a Sorcery spell and you need to have at least insight into the water Rune and Command technique, how could any sailor cast it? It seems that every ship would need at least one fully fledged sorcerer onboard to venture into open seas, or at least a sorcerer in the harbor to cast it at departure. 

If I remember correctly, Jeff said something about ship captains being able to learn it as a "package", where the runes and techniques needed are included in the skill. You technically don't have them mastered, so you don't write them on your sheet and can't use them for other spells, but it means you can cast Open Seas without having to become a sorcerer and master the runes and techniques individually. This is all from memory though, so I could be wrong.

EDIT: Found the quote. "The definition of a sorcerer is someone who knows sorcerous Runes or Techniques. Open Seas can be cast without knowing any. Most initiates of Dormal know just this one spell and are not sorcerers." Not quite as elaborate as I remembered it, so my memory must've made some conjectures, but the gist is the same.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Richard S.

[Godlearner]

Ok then. Are we saying its one shot thing, or can we apply this to ALL sorcery Rituals? What would be the casting cost to such a Capitan … 4 mpm since he known neither the rune or technique?

[Richard S.]

13 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Ok then. Are we saying its one shot thing, or can we apply this to ALL sorcery Rituals? What would be the casting cost to such a Capitan … 4 mpm since he known neither the rune or technique?

For now I think we should assume that the ability to cast it without being a sorcerer is unique to this spell, possibly something invented by Dormal. 4mp is probably good for the cost.

[Psullie]

I think that this would one of the secrets taught to captains by the Temple of Dormal. along with navigation etc, 

[soltakss]

14 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Ok then. Are we saying its one shot thing, or can we apply this to ALL sorcery Rituals? What would be the casting cost to such a Capitan … 4 mpm since he known neither the rune or technique?

I think it's a one-shot thing.

Dormal created it as sorcery but is now a deity, so packages it up a bit like Runemagic but not quite.

[David Scott]

16 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Since this is a Sorcery spell and you need to have at least insight into the water Rune and Command technique, how could any sailor cast it?

The Dormal version takes 10 minutes to perform. It costs 9 magic points when cast by initiates or priests who lack any other sorcerous training.

16 hours ago, Godlearner said:

It seems that every ship would need at least one fully fledged sorcerer onboard to venture into open seas, or at least a sorcerer in the harbor to cast it at departure.

No sorcerer needed, just an expert in this spell. Every ship has one for obvious reasons.

[Jeff]

11 minutes ago, David Scott said:

The Dormal version takes 10 minutes to perform. It costs 9 magic points when cast by initiates or priests who lack any other sorcerous training.

No sorcerer needed, just an expert in this spell. Every ship has one for obvious reasons.

 

The Cults Book entry on Dormal makes this all very clear. 

SPECIAL MAGIC

The cult teaches the sorcery spell of Open Seas. Unusually, this spell does not require knowledge of any sorcerous Runes or Techniques, as all the necessary information is contained within the ritual itself. 

[Joerg]

16 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Ok then. Are we saying its one shot thing, or can we apply this to ALL sorcery Rituals? What would be the casting cost to such a Capitan … 4 mpm since he known neither the rune or technique?

Definitely not all sorcery rituals, but at least IMG there are (going to be) craft magics that work this way (once I start defining such, which will probably wait for the starter box with info on Jonstown guilds). Such magics will be a jealously guarded  nostrum, unlike the freely taught Open Seas ritual. Possibly requiring initiation (with POW sacrifice etc.) into a hero/spirit cult.

 

13 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The Cults Book entry on Dormal makes this all very clear.

Wrong tense: is going to make this all very clear. Hopefully by Xmas.

[Akhôrahil]

43 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Definitely not all sorcery rituals, but at least IMG there are (going to be) craft magics that work this way (once I start defining such, which will probably wait for the starter box with info on Jonstown guilds). Such magics will be a jealously guarded  nostrum, unlike the freely taught Open Seas ritual. Possibly requiring initiation (with POW sacrifice etc.) into a hero/spirit cult.

I find this extremely interesting. Would it in principle be possible to re-package any sorcery spell into its own "executable" that non-sorcerers can use (but there still aren't so many of them as a lot of sorcerers see very little point in creating "sorcery for the masses", especially as it takes a lot of work as well)? Or maybe this is something only heroes can accomplish, and even then with restrictions on what is achievable (opening the seas and magical crafting seems a lot more likely than fireballs). Non-sorcerer sorcery offers a way to have MP-inefficient but very specialized magics.

Edited February 26, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[metcalph]

18 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I find this extremely interesting. Would it in principle be possible to re-package any sorcery spell into its own "executable" that non-sorcerers can use (but there still aren't so many of them as a lot of sorcerers see very little point in creating "sorcery for the masses", especially as it takes a lot of work as well)? Or maybe this is something only heroes can accomplish, and even then with restrictions on what is achievable (opening the seas and magical crafting seems a lot more likely than fireballs). Non-sorcerer sorcery offers a way to have MP-inefficient but very specialized magics.

Presumably magic-points-by-numbers sorcery spells would still be limited by one's read/write.  This would mean that only the lettered are expected to be taught and cast such spells

[Akhôrahil]

16 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Presumably magic-points-by-numbers sorcery spells would still be limited by one's read/write.  This would mean that only the lettered are expected to be taught and cast such spells

That has some interesting implications for Open Seas. The captain of a trading ship probably has some literacy (or else access onboard to someone who does), but fishermen likely don't.

Edited February 26, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[metcalph]

Just now, Akhôrahil said:

That has some interesting implications for Open Seas. The captain of a trading ship probably has some literacy, but fishermen likely don't.

I think most fisherfolk in Dragon Pass and Prax would be river-based rather than sea based (save for the Mirrorsea).  Only the Vadeli would would brave the open seas to fish.

[Akhôrahil]

8 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I think most fisherfolk in Dragon Pass and Prax would be river-based rather than sea based (save for the Mirrorsea).  Only the Vadeli would would brave the open seas to fish.

Probably true in most cases, especially in Dragon Pass/Prax. But there's enough sea fishing going on that there's a god for it (Pelaskos). While it might be possible to fish within sight of land, this seems dangerous in case winds blow you out to sea.

Although in 1625, isn't the whole thing just academic anyway? The Shiprise broke the Closing, so Open Seas serves no purpose any longer? 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[7Tigers]

Just now, Akhôrahil said:

Although in 1625, isn't the whole thing just academic anyway? The Shiprise broke the Closing, so Open Seas serves no purpose any longer? 

Sure, but sailors do not know that...

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, 7Tigers said:

Sure, but sailors do not know that...

Excellent point - it might take quite some time for people to realize what's going on.

Unless Divination?

(Now I can just imagine some Lhankor Mhy scholar trying to tell sailors that Open Seas is no longer necessary, and them rolling their eyes as it's not his ass on the line and they've been doing this for generations, thank you very much!) 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Eff]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I find this extremely interesting. Would it in principle be possible to re-package any sorcery spell into its own "executable" that non-sorcerers can use (but there still aren't so many of them as a lot of sorcerers see very little point in creating "sorcery for the masses", especially as it takes a lot of work as well)? Or maybe this is something only heroes can accomplish, and even then with restrictions on what is achievable (opening the seas and magical crafting seems a lot more likely than fireballs). Non-sorcerer sorcery offers a way to have MP-inefficient but very specialized magics.

In previous iterations of Sorcery rules, this was explicitly how magic like Flamesword functioned- the "saint"/Ascended Master had gone to the Otherside and discovered how to package this complicated set of commands into a single ginna.jar file that anyone could make use of through a ritualized trip to the Otherside to gain that knowledge. Of course, in RQG, these spells are mostly Rune Magic, and as all well know, there's no way to describe the process of learning Rune magic as "a ritualized trip to the Otherside in order to gain the knowledge by which some god or hero performed a feat or deed." So I'm as sure as Claude Rains was shocked to find gambling going on in Rick's Bar that there's no connection there. 

(Open Seas would be a rarity in this model for being fueled like Sorcery/Spirit Magic, though, entirely with your This Side magical power.)

Edited February 26, 2021 by Eff

[Godlearner]

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I find this extremely interesting. Would it in principle be possible to re-package any sorcery spell into its own "executable" that non-sorcerers can use (but there still aren't so many of them as a lot of sorcerers see very little point in creating "sorcery for the masses", especially as it takes a lot of work as well)? Or maybe this is something only heroes can accomplish, and even then with restrictions on what is achievable (opening the seas and magical crafting seems a lot more likely than fireballs). Non-sorcerer sorcery offers a way to have MP-inefficient but very specialized magics.

I would say so for ritual type magic at least.

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

(Now I can just imagine some Lhankor Mhy scholar trying to tell sailors that Open Seas is no longer necessary, and them rolling their eyes as it's not his ass on the line and they've been doing this for generations, thank you very much!) 

At most three generations, four if someone was ancient but still an active sailor in 1580 - the Opening happened 45 years ago, and for the first few voyages the magic was only 75% reliable (judging from Dormal's own record). Dormal's arrival apparently started a boom in ship-building rather than re-furbishing existing ships, at least to begin with, but then few places would have had workable ships for open sea voyages. Wooden ships come with a limited lifespan.