Backford Aeolian Campaign

[Erol of Backford]

Continuing with the trade and caravan subject and wanting to know about how far a caravan would move a day I get this info online for horses:

You can ride an average, healthy and energetic horse for 25 and 35 miles (40 – 56.5 km) in one day in ideal conditions. However, most of them will successfully handle only 15 and 20 miles (24 – 32 km) a day with enough water, food, and rest. Keep in mind that distance traveled also depends on you, weather conditions, terrain, and equipment you use.

It’s safe to say a mule can travel as far as a horse. Again, there are many variables. A fit and conditioned equine can cover the 100 miles of an endurance ride in less than 24 hours, with breaks for vet checks, food & water, etc. If you want to ride your mule (or if its carrying a load) and it’s going to need to travel day after day, I wouldn’t recommend going much farther than 30 miles each day. Again, terrain, weather, availability of food and water all make a difference.

30 miles would be about 48km and so there are many variables to getting an average. Depending on temperatures/climate and terrain this could be a little or a lot more/less.

What would a trade caravan move in a day with walking humans/herd-men, most carrying packs with some goods? 20km?

Any input is appreciated.

[Jeff]

CARAVAN DISTANCES

The Caravan Distance Table shows the average distances between points of significance and the average number of days, rounded up, it takes a mule caravan to travel between such places at a rate of approximately 40 km (25 miles) daily along the Royal Roads. Beasts of burden need rest at least one full day per week and rest stops during the day. Typically tolls are collected at each of the places listed.

 

	Distance (km/miles)	Days
Karse to Whitewall	84/52	3*
Whitewall to Wilmskirk	60/37	2
Wilmskirk to Boldhome	44/27	2
Wilmskirk to Swenstown	64/40	2
Wilmskirk to Quackford	34/21	1
Quackford to Duck Point	38/24	1*
Quackford to Clearwine	20/12	1*
Swenstown to Boldhome	40/25	1
Swenstown to Pimper’s Block	24/15	1
Pimper’s Block to Bigglestone	120/75	4**
Bigglestone to Paps	60/37	2**
Paps to New Pavis	104/65	4**
Boldhome to Jonstown	34/21	1
Jonstown to Dangerford	20/12	1
Jonstown to Runegate	44/27	2*
Dangerford to Herongreen	26/16	1
Herongreen to Torkan’s Last Fort	48/30	2*
Torkan’s Last Fort to New Pavis	176/110	6***
Herongreen to Alda-Chur	36/22	1
Alda-Chur to Slavewall	94/58	3
Slavewall to Furthest	86/53	3*

* Extra time is needed between these points because of the rough ground travelled on this route. Local tribes may impose additional toll(s).

** Extra time is needed between these points because of the rough ground travelled on this route. No toll, but also no protection against bandits.

*** Extra time and extreme caution is needed on this route because sufficient water and fodder must be carried by the caravan. This takes up at least 70% of the caravan’s carrying capacity.

[Ian_W]

On 12/23/2021 at 10:16 AM, Jeff said:

 

CARAVAN DISTANCES

The Caravan Distance Table shows the average distances between points of significance and the average number of days, rounded up, it takes a mule caravan to travel between such places at a rate of approximately 40 km (25 miles) daily along the Royal Roads. Beasts of burden need rest at least one full day per week and rest stops during the day. Typically tolls are collected at each of the places listed.

 

 

Note that other places in Glorantha - who didn't get unified by a King with a deep understanding of the harmony rune and a willingness to spend wealth and magic - don't have the well set out and organised royal roads, which means their average travel speed is more like 20km a day, with mules needing to rest at least two days a week.

 

Effectively, when it's working properly, this means the Kingdom of Sartar has *twice* the transport capacity in ton-miles out of a given investment in transport animals ... and that reduction in friction makes a huge difference for trade.

 

Note that the 40km a day is faster average travel time than Jacques Le Saige did on his pilgrimage in 1519, and he was on a horse with money, as opposed to with a mule train carrying goods.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Ian_W

[Joerg]

I wonder whether the caravanserais in Sartar offer a service to exchange riding beasts or pack beasts. Most seem to be run by the Issaries Cult or close associates (like Geo). Most appear to have a Horsemaster's Guild stable attached, even in hamlets like Apple Lane or Farfield (from "The Rattling Wind").

The Weapons and Equipment Guide doesn't seem to give load capacities for carts or wagons - a weird omission. Ox carts were used extensively for bulky cargo (not quite bulk cargo) between connected harbors (e.g. Hedeby and later Schleswg and the river port of Hollingstedt, a distance of a bit over 11 miles (18.6km). That's a one day trip for a mule train, according to Jeff's table.

How long does it take two people to load or unload a pack mule? Wagons and 4-wheeled carts have the advantage that you don't have to unload them overnight, which may make up for their somewhat slower progress.

[Erol of Backford]

To your point on wagons Joerg, What about river barges and their rate of travel, I assume this has been discussed a lot in the past? I assume a good amount of trade would flow between Duckpoint and Nochet on the River? Is anyone able to link the posts on it?

Ian, the faster rate of travel doesn't bother me so much as this is a fantasy world and its easily adjusted up or down, cast spells on animals (refresh animal 2?) or something like that. The Aes Sedai Moiraine Damodred uses the one power to refresh the horses in one of the Wheel of Time episodes. (I don't recall that from the books, but it was a few years ago...)

Would tolls/taxes be the main reason persons would take some overseas trade items to Karse rather than Notchet? It would seem the markets in Nochet would fetch a larger number of potential buyers than Karse?

Edited December 24, 2021 by Erol of Backford

[Jeff]

28 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

To your point on wagons Joerg, What about river barges and their rate of travel, I assume this has been discussed a lot in the past? I assume a good amount of trade would flow between Duckpoint and Nochet on the River? Is anyone able to like the posts on it?

Ian, the faster rate of travel doesn't bother me so much as this is a fantasy world and its easily adjusted up or down, cast spells on animals (refresh animal 2?) or something like that. The Aes Sedai Moiraine Damodred uses the one power to refresh the horses in one of the Wheel of Time episodes. (I don't recall that from the books, but it was a few years ago...)

Would tolls/taxes be the main reason persons would take some overseas trade items to Karse rather than Notchet? It would seem the markets in Nochet would fetch a larger number of potential buyers than Karse?

For caravan and road travel, my usual source is Donald Engels' "Alexander the Great and the Logistics of the Macedonian Army".  

As for road versus river, road is actually easier from the New River upstream. The Creek-Stream River descends some 2000 feet from the Upland Marsh to the Building Wall in less than 80 miles. That's about 20-25 feet per mile, which is pretty tough to go upriver from. Downstream is fine, as long as you use the ducks. But for goods coming into the Lunar Empire from the Holy Country, the roads are easier - which also means that the caravan route on the road is possibly easier both ways.

[Erol of Backford]

Thanks again for the explanation Mr. Richard!

I see 2 contour lines on the AA p.29 going up the River to Duck Point from Nochet? Would each then add a graduated 1000' to the above sea level mark or there abouts?

From Duck Point through the Marsh into the Donalf Flats what would the elevation change be, I assume, relatively low per the name?

Either way I am seeing Dragon Pass a lot different now as the severe elevation changes really add a whole new 3D vision to the maps for me, brining even more depth to Glorantha then when I played in the 90's. (bad pun) 

[Erol of Backford]

Oh, Happy Holidays to everyone!

[Jeff]

A possible point in comparison is the Little Colorado River from Cameron to the Colorado River.

[Erol of Backford]

Black Canyon of the Gunnison, 2200' deep, maybe the Syphon cutting through the Heortland Plateau?

There are 2 contour lines at Backford, at least on the north side of the river? Are the AA contours 1000' each?

[Ian_W]

10 hours ago, Jeff said:

For caravan and road travel, my usual source is Donald Engels' "Alexander the Great and the Logistics of the Macedonian Army".  

As for road versus river, road is actually easier from the New River upstream. The Creek-Stream River descends some 2000 feet from the Upland Marsh to the Building Wall in less than 80 miles. That's about 20-25 feet per mile, which is pretty tough to go upriver from. Downstream is fine, as long as you use the ducks. 

That's pretty similar to the Durance River of south-eastern France, which had Romans use towpaths to move wine and olive oil up.  It's a major advantage to only be working against river current while the water holds your cargo up.

The Kingdom of Sartar is well placed to give a similar boost to river traffic as road traffic, as a lot of the same security improvements (aka only one set of paperwork for all the tolls) and infrastructure improvements (towpaths ! Rental animals ! Well-placed inns !) apply. This is before you mythically get the assistance of the river gods (*).

Note that the roads also go up and down, which is difficult on fully laden animals. It wouldn't surprise me to have Sartarites rent temporary assistance animals to merchants for particular stretches.

 

(*) As a side point, the Lunars stuffed up in Prax by not working a lot harder on playing nice with the Zola Fel cult. It would have made a big difference to getting a viable port in the Zola Fel delta.

[Erol of Backford]

1 hour ago, Ian_W said:

It's a major advantage to only be working against river current while the water holds your cargo up.

It is a good point Ian, that gravity would tend to pull the goods, barrels, boats, rafts, whatever down towards the Mirrorsea Bay with only the current pushing against it. On a day with the right wind, plus gravity you may be able to sail upriver, down to the Bay from Backford?

[M Helsdon]

7 hours ago, Ian_W said:

It's a major advantage to only be working against river current while the water holds your cargo up.

The big problem are cascades/cataracts which mean that boats have to be moved by portage to get around them. This limits the size of boats and cargoes. For the Engizi to Nochet, I believe there are several sets on the Runnel? This makes the road route via Karse more attractive.

[Erol of Backford]

It almost seems there should be a Lhankor Mhy engineering subcult? "Master Builder" or something of the like, especially with all the larger cities in Glorantha.

Canals were being used in 500 BC and so there could be canals built to circumvent any rapids? The Royal Roads could be augmented by Royal Locks?

"Locks as we know them today can almost all be traced back to China's Grand Canal and its 10th Century innovations. The canal itself, at over 1,110 miles, includes 24 locks. Construction on the canal began in 486 B.C., but the world's oldest lock came along in 984 AD thanks to the work of the Song Dynasty." https://www.encyclopedia.com/science/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/development-canal-locks

I suppose anything like this would detract from any PC's adventuring but it could be something running in the background of any campaign?

[Richard S.]

30 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

It almost seems there should be a Lhankor Mhy engineering subcult? "Master Builder" or something of the like, especially with all the larger cities in Glorantha.

Large scale building and engineering is usually handled by Lodril and his sons or the Mostali. LM is more about gathering knowledge than actually applying it, unless said application is to get more knowledge.

[Joerg]

18 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Black Canyon of the Gunnison, 2200' deep, maybe the Syphon cutting through the Heortland Plateau?

There are 2 contour lines at Backford, at least on the north side of the river? Are the AA contours 1000' each?

To be honest, I wonder about that decision. The Syphon is a river well known for flowing uphill from the Choralinthor Bay, which means it doesn't have to cut a deep gorge into the Plateau when it could just have ignored hydrostatic considerations.

I choose to read that map as the Syphon rising up to almost 290 or so meters above sea level, with the plateau to the south giving a rather gentle rise towards the higher lands along the coastal cliffs and the foothills (where we get higher isohypses).

The Footprint is about as high above Sea Level, and further inside close to the descent into the Underworld it may actually flow downhill, but always headed towards Chaos - just like Lorion/Engizi called all rivers to do.

[Erol of Backford]

Joerg, the 290m puts the contour at about 1000' and so it makes sense to me. Thank you.

[Jeff]

18 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Black Canyon of the Gunnison, 2200' deep, maybe the Syphon cutting through the Heortland Plateau?

There are 2 contour lines at Backford, at least on the north side of the river? Are the AA contours 1000' each?

Nowhere near Black Canyon sized. There are hills that rise some 2000 feet to the northwest of Backford. The Syphon valley is more than a mile wide at the bottom, and the 1000 foot marks are four or five miles apart at the narrowest. The Gunnison base is about 40 feet, and a quarter of a mile wide at the rim.

[Erol of Backford]

I was thinking more along the lines of the depth being 2000' deep. I understand the mile width at the bottom of the valley. The blue of the Syphon is still quite wide at the valley bottom via the maps. Gunnison is much too narrow, see that now. Thanks for clarification...

I looked for a scale in the AA but didn't find one. Is each hex set at 5 miles? That's about what I get from superimposing a scale from another old Holy Country map I have.

[Erol of Backford]

Back to Black Arkat, is the "The Brown Book of Zzabur" still accurate?

http://zzabursbrownbook.blogspot.com/2017/03/the-house-of-black-arkat.html

Also I have Tradetalk 12 and ToRM 13 with some detail on Black Arkat is any of that still relative? Is Jansholm still the HQ as stated in Tradetalk 12?

What is the Kobakuruum?!

Edited December 26, 2021 by Erol of Backford

[Richard S.]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Back to Black Arkat, is the "The Brown Book of Zzabur" still accurate?

http://zzabursbrownbook.blogspot.com/2017/03/the-house-of-black-arkat.html

Also I have Tradetalk 12 and ToRM 13 with some detail on Black Arkat is any of that still relative? Is Jansholm still the HQ as stated in Tradetalk 12?

What is the Kobakuruum?!

BBoZ is a fan site, run by @Tindalos if I'm not mistaken. The magazines are fan publications too. There's no harm in using them if you want, but there's no guarantee they'll line up with any future canon.

[M Helsdon]

15 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Canals were being used in 500 BC and so there could be canals built to circumvent any rapids? The Royal Roads could be augmented by Royal Locks?

There are canals in Glorantha, but altering the flow of a river will anger the River God or Goddess.

[David Scott]

15 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Canals were being used in 500 BC and so there could be canals built to circumvent any rapids? The Royal Roads could be augmented by Royal Locks?

"Locks as we know them today can almost all be traced back to China's Grand Canal and its 10th Century innovations. The canal itself, at over 1,110 miles, includes 24 locks. Construction on the canal began in 486 B.C., but the world's oldest lock came along in 984 AD thanks to the work of the Song Dynasty." https://www.encyclopedia.com/science/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/development-canal-locks

Given that the rivers in Glorantha are spirits or gods, canalising or using locks would likely be difficult. There's a village called portage on the Northern Sartar map, and it's mentioned in Weapons and equipment, so that's the most likely solution.

[Joerg]

43 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Given that the rivers in Glorantha are spirits or gods, canalising or using locks would likely be difficult. There's a village called portage on the Northern Sartar map, and it's mentioned in Weapons and equipment, so that's the most likely solution.

The rivers of the Pelorian basin pretty much have been tamed by the humans living on them, diverted into reservoirs and irrigation canals, dammed embankments, and possibly even groynes to regulate the main channel of a river and keep it navigable during periods of extreme water levels and to direct some of the flow into reservoirs or paddies. But then, the Oslir is a mile wide in places.

[David Scott]

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

The rivers of the Pelorian basin

We are talking about Heortland, not Peloria.