Ancient West

[scott-martin]

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Another question is: why didn't the God Learners do it? Was it too controversial? No available paths? Or did they actually do it? 

 

Great questions. I am setting up the artillery so will require covering fire in the likely scenario a full-fledged "ecclesiastical council" erupts here . . . but will just say two things up front.

First, so much has been painstakingly reconstructed about the God Learner methodology that we need to find some truly world-shaking achievement lost in their downfall. Otherwise the secret carriers etc. look completely ineffectual when MGF wants them to have been impressive. 

Maybe the Danmalastan routes, true history of Brithos and so forth give us that lost achievement. In this scenario, the God Learners were perfectly fluent with this material but now there's just a mysterious and ominous void in the mythic landscape. Harrek and Argrath don't figure it out. Only your players can do this. [A more recent similar collapse of "the sorcery plane" is probably a ripple here, it's the hero wars.]

Second, they might have spent a lot more collective effort suppressing this material on their own and mostly succeeded. Your take on this one depends largely on the role you see the island playing within the larger fabric of empire: adversarial, allied, absent . . . personally you know my take on the value of an earful of zzabur says.

Now in modern times people are going to want to explore their heritage and put the pieces back together. This has not been the mission of Hrestol in the past but that's where I'd start this adventure. The Arkat people are too busy with Arkat, the Rokarites are jerks, Siglat PBUH has his own weird gospel not found in Revealed Mythologies yet, Rikard and the Aeolians were looking in a completely different part of the world, the Princes have their more immediate agenda, etc. But some plucky Hrestolite might start rolling the bones back together, God save us all.

EDIT @NevermetI found the mountain stories.
Now playing: GO WEST

Edited April 19, 2021 by scott-martin
freudian slip, effort = error

[jajagappa]

23 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

But some plucky Hrestolite might start rolling the bones back together, God save us all.

It feels like this would be something Siglat caught a glimpse of, something that the Syndic's Ban perhaps hid again.  Do the Altinae know?  And if they did, how would you get there?  Or are there ripples in the Godtime - mythical chasms from Zzabur's blasts?  Maybe Zzabur was not intending to break the physical world, but the mythic world?

[scott-martin]

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

Do the Altinae know?  And if they did, how would you get there?

One of the only things I really know about the Altinelans is that they hate the Luathans from forever back. Still have only a vague sense of what that entails but since the Luathans seem to be guardians of the Western Corner (reflected in the black camp?) it's worth flagging here. I'd start by roving as far north as I can. A Northfaring. 

But this is dangerous, desperate stuff and northern new england is wild enough for my delicate metabolism, right?

5 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Maybe Zzabur was not intending to break the physical world, but the mythic world?

Love this. I don't know if the entity we call the Blue Meany could ever really tell the difference.

[jajagappa]

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

I don't know if the entity we call the Blue Meany could ever really tell the difference.

Find the places where everything has gone "bluish" and we'll know we're on the right track!

2 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

One of the only things I really know about the Altinelans is that they hate the Luathans from forever back

Pure White, Pure Black - what could be more opposite (of course the Luathans are now purple, but still the ties to Introspection linger).  Or perhaps the dichotomy of Introspection vs. Innocence?  Those who think vs. those who are...

[Nick Brooke]

Black...
and blue...
and who knows
which is which,
and who is who?

Up...
and down...
and in the end,
it’s only
round and round.

[scott-martin]

Everyone you meet

[Nevermet]

4 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Now in modern times people are going to want to explore their heritage and put the pieces back together. This has not been the mission of Hrestol in the past but that's where I'd start this adventure. The Arkat people are too busy with Arkat, the Rokarites are jerks, Siglat PBUH has his own weird gospel not found in Revealed Mythologies yet, Rikard and the Aeolians were looking in a completely different part of the world, the Princes have their more immediate agenda, etc. But some plucky Hrestolite might start rolling the bones back together, God save us all.

Hrestoli Knight: "Well sage, what have you discovered?"

Sage: "Well... the good news is that it appears there is a near full account of how to reach back that far."

Hrestoli: "EXCELLENT!  Who has it?"

Sage: *Gulp*

Hrestol: ....?

Sage: The Atroxic Church.

Hrestoli: Well, f###.

[Nevermet]

(More seriously: There are most definitely secrets about the West in the Black Horse County, the type of secrets that people hope they never need to know)

[Hijabg]

4 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Blue Meany

Speaking of Blue Meanies, did you know the Outer Atomic Explorers were living in a yellow submarine ?

 

 

[scott-martin]

@Hijabgthis could also be the Sorcery Plane but they playin
it's the hero wars
ok i owe Joerg a long serious thing

[Eff]

Well, there was a Yellow Camp of Enlightenment, and the God Learners had an autonomous experiment running in Kralorela that got deep into its own approach to the mystic and managed to survive the destruction of other God Learners. Gillam d'Estau may well have discovered the beginnings of a pathway to the Sea of Nothing, and beyond that... the Chief Blue Meanie himself. Godunya presumably shut the door tight on that particular pathway, though, but Godunya is on his way out, and the doors may well be coming open with his transcendence.

And there's a certain kind of poetry to it- to pass through the barriers of logic erected by the ultimate rational mind, you must clear your mind of logic. But to get there, first there's all the psychedelica...

[jajagappa]

7 minutes ago, Eff said:

But to get there, first there's all the psychedelica...

Picture yourself on a boat in a river

With tangerine trees and marmalade skies...

[Nevermet]

13 minutes ago, Eff said:

Well, there was a Yellow Camp of Enlightenment, and the God Learners had an autonomous experiment running in Kralorela that got deep into its own approach to the mystic and managed to survive the destruction of other God Learners. Gillam d'Estau may well have discovered the beginnings of a pathway to the Sea of Nothing, and beyond that... the Chief Blue Meanie himself. Godunya presumably shut the door tight on that particular pathway, though, but Godunya is on his way out, and the doors may well be coming open with his transcendence.

 

I completely forgot about this

[Nevermet]

18 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

I completely forgot about this

To elaborate, a while back I was wondering around here about what illumination is in all its forms, and the question came up how compatible illumination was with western religion & magic.  The answer I've been tentatively subscribing to is that it could in principle, but that Godlearnerism, with its focus on being able to perfectly absorb everything into a rationalistic or materialistic worldview, was not going to be it.

 

....I am unsure if this forces me to rethink things

[Eff]

Just now, Nevermet said:

To elaborate, a while back I was wondering around here about what illumination is in all its forms, and the question came up how compatible illumination was with western religion & magic.  The answer I've been tentatively subscribing to is that it could in principle, but that Godlearnerism, with its focus on being able to perfectly absorb everything into a rationalistic or materialistic worldview, was not going to be it.

 

....I am unsure if this forces me to rethink things

Well, we can probably assume that ShangHsa (MHNBC) was doing things in a very wrong way indeed. Dragons came to tear him apart, and not his enemies, after all.

[Nevermet]

33 minutes ago, Eff said:

Dragons came to tear him apart, and not his enemies, after all.

Generally an indicator someone made a wrong turn or twenty.

[Ladygolem]

13 hours ago, Darius West said:

For example, when a mountain is actually a giant, or a dragon.  How does one understand that within the mythology?  I mean, think about it.  A giant man rune sits down and becomes a physical manifestation of law. 

Ah, but are not Giants also strongly tied to the Disorder rune? The same process could thus be described as "when a Giant's connection to the Disorder rune weakens, they become mountains". You could take this further, and posit that Giants are really just mountains with too much Disorder messing up their Law, causing them to start walking around and causing mischief instead of staying put like a good Lawful mountain should!

[Charles]

1 hour ago, Ladygolem said:

Ah, but are not Giants also strongly tied to the Disorder rune?

I’ve always felt that ‘Giant’ is too descriptive and general and not specific to a single type of being. In my mind, the giants of Disorder are entirely different to Gonn Ort and his ilk. And they are both different types to the ‘Giants’ of the Praxians, which are their reverent name for their Great Spirits / Gods.

I’m a killjoy, I know....

[Richard S.]

If we want to get deeper into mountain = law territory, when True Dragons sleep mountains often form around/above them. Sleeping/dead dragons forming the basis of a lawful universe? Maybe dragons become singular laws which are runes as they sleep, explaining their elemental associations.

[Darius West]

14 hours ago, Ladygolem said:

Ah, but are not Giants also strongly tied to the Disorder rune? The same process could thus be described as "when a Giant's connection to the Disorder rune weakens, they become mountains". You could take this further, and posit that Giants are really just mountains with too much Disorder messing up their Law, causing them to start walking around and causing mischief instead of staying put like a good Lawful mountain should!

There are a few different types of giants.  Giants with the disorder rune are only one sort, and they tend to be smaller and more active than some of the others.  Flipping the matter on its head the way you have done is an interesting approach though Ladygolem.  It is quite possible that the disorder giants of today are echoes of the likes of Genert and Tada, who battled Chaos and lost, or have been infected by the trickster's approach to life.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Darius West

[M Helsdon]

Obviously not canonical, but may be of interest:

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/325525/Men-of-the-West

Edited April 21, 2021 by M Helsdon

[scott-martin]

On 4/18/2021 at 9:21 AM, Joerg said:

Another possible interpretation of the coming of the Mountain People to Brithela could be the coming of Drona, son of the mountain (range) goddess Kala, and (a pre-incarnation of) Malkion the Prophet (siring the farmer and worker population of the West, of dark skin).

I've been rolling all this around in my head looking for the right thread to twist all the way through the maze. This is good enough. Start with origins and the stubborn persistence of the Spike as cosmic fulcrum rivaling the Tower of Reason. The received zzabur narrative preserves nothing but disdain for the mountain (or mountains) and its cosmic inhabitants, whom other people remember as elder powers.

While the water powers recognize the Whirlpool as the holiest mystery and the center of the middle world, the sorcerous center starts from close to the far edge (probably the Enrovalini zone), slides south toward as the Kadeniti become more prominent and ultimately takes refuge in Brithos all the way up on what must have once been the frontier separating the Kachasti homeland from Ladaralela. Watch the various towers, palaces, citadels and castles move around the map. See the progression as various "zzaburs" and "malkions" establish successive residences.

But there is a layer of western-facing mythic history that takes a more sympathetic view. Once upon a time, at the beginning of things, there were two brothers. One stayed home and one went out. The brother who stayed home was the origin of the world, ACOS, the first mountain born and the first mountain that died. He was not Mostal. His name is associated with living stone, the law, making. In the northwest the oldest word for world (predating "Glorantha" by about a decade) is Akem, realm of Acos. 

We know him as the Spike. Before the world broke, the Spike was the Mountain and the now-blunt and inert Stability rune had the thrusting angle of Law. By definition, he inhabited the center of the world and never left. He was invulnerable until they killed him. The space he left behind is still the center of the world but now it is empty.

According to the Prosopaedia, the cult of Acos persists within the Yelm and Eastern pantheons, where his brother aspect LARNSTE is also recognized in some form. When consciousness ranges outside the law, change emerges. Those left inside say he was expelled. He says it’s his nature, “free will.” By definition when the One becomes Two you have begun the long process of duplication of entities and the mountain begins to multiply. The people who stayed home belong to Acos.  The people who went out from the Spike are Larnste's people. And when they stop and build a new local law for themselves, a new mountain rises.

This cycle might remind us of the pattern of zzaburs cloistered in their towers and malkions going out to bring their teaching to new peoples in new lands. To the extent to which zzabur persists, his "spike" remains unbroken. Going out as a malkion exposes him to fear, suffering, sacrifice and ultimately death. It is illogical. 

And yet it happens. The zzabur left at home becomes jealous, seeing rival mountains everywhere and working toward their destruction. 

Despite Tojarinor's gloss in "The Metals of Acos," URTIAM is not quite modern Mostal and his recent (re)insertion into the sacred genealogy of Lhankor reflects this more nuanced view. We know this figure in the Snodal fragments as the creator, the law and as secret god of Nida. The name also belongs to a Grandfather Mortal and sorcerously warped appears in the Guide as Lord of the Spike.

Special care was taken to erase this cult in all but the most obscure aspects. He is neither an orthodox malkion nor zzabur, but more of an acos. Technically, I believe he was a "ladaral" buried when Nida overwhelmed the mainland Kachastites and created a mountain wall between "northern Lodril" (Turos) and "southern Lodril" (Veskarthan) . . . loser of a war between mountain gods, enslaved like his father to fuel sorcerous engines, prisoner of Mostal. The sharp point of the spear of the law is hammered down to flat, rounded stability. The miracle is that he endures at all in the secret heart of the northern decamony. It is "ur-" metal to this day, a stolen secret.

But these are not the children of Warera. These are the children of Kachasti, another tribe like the children of Vadel, son of Vi(y)morn, who went "west" (southwest?) to Mostal Mountain and came home again to become master of a defeated Zerendel. You can go too far out larnsting. This is what happens.

This is the fall of all the old law people except those who had already found refuge elsewhere. 

Sometimes the blue strain of Warera is attributed to "Vadeli" blood. I don't know. The important thing here is that the island enters history with the blue caste rising. The talar are distracted. The horals, the red people, are open to heretical innovation. The green cousins have their own religion and their own agenda. A man named Drona goes to the northern frontier to become father of human nations in the shadow of "Akem." 

We could talk more about the blue man, his persistence and the history of the island, wherever it is or was, elsewhere, but this is already too long. Who knows these things? Probably nobody living in Glorantha today. Maybe tomorrow. It's the Western Hero Wars.

[Eff]

There is an interesting runic visual motif here- Law, worn down from overuse, loses its tip and becomes blunt Stability. But then if we interpret Movement as a turning grindstone, Law's sharp tip is restored. MLKN and ZZBR are both necessary for KS... or KM, or maybe MKN... 

(And sneakily, Uleria's Rune is the meeting of two opposing Laws.) 

[Nevermet]

I need to re-read this thread this weekend

[jajagappa]

9 hours ago, Eff said:

There is an interesting runic visual motif here- Law, worn down from overuse, loses its tip and becomes blunt Stability.

You can also regain the top by pushing the Power Rune up through the worn down Stasis Rune.  Rather like a volcano (which brings us back to Lodril, oh my!). 😉

Edited April 23, 2021 by jajagappa