Dueling Etiquette

[Ironwall]

So I started my Runequest game and i ran the cattle Raid scenario one of my players decided to deal with the situation when the Orvelings arrived by challenging the leader to a duel. He won by summoning a Air elemental who lifted the leader up and made him fall to death. so i didnt think of it at the time but i imagince using a spirit in a duel would be a rather bad thing to orlanthi society but is that the case, also what are any common rules for duels that exist for future refrence.

Edited April 29, 2021 by Ironwall

[soltakss]

We always agreed the terms of the duel beforehand.

Terms could include: To the death, to first blood, last person standing wins, no magic, no non-cult magic, no elementals, no magic cast at the opponent, no outside aid, no healing magic, no non-cult weapons, only fight with the off-hand and so on.

[HreshtIronBorne]

I know of at least one duel in canon where a Humakti used a fire elemental and though some in the crowd thought it bad form she definitely won the duel. We have always played the Humakti being the most uptight about honour and following rules in duels than other cults, at least on our Glorantha. Unless the two Orlanthi established some ground rules and didn't just shout challenges and start hurling lightning then all is fair, IMO. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, Ironwall said:

So I started my Runequest game and i ran the cattle Raid scenario one of my players decided to deal with the situation when the Orvelings arrived by challenging the leader to a duel. He won by summoning a Air elemental who lifted the leader up and made him fall to death. so i didnt think of it at the time but i imagince using a spirit in a duel would be a rather bad thing to orlanthi society but is that the case, also what are any common rules for duels that exist for future refrence.

without any agreement (like @soltakss proposal) people would probably consider there is a wergild to pay (or a feud, or...). The duel did not close the issue, it worsened the problem.

With clear agreement, you are free to find npc who will consider that was not fair and claim for revenge or consider that everyone accepts the duel decision. (and I am no sure what a "neutral" judge may decide in this case)

 

but... all depends on the maturity of your table ( as players and as glorantha "lore" master) and I m not sure it is the most important background to follow, especially if you did not alert the player of the rules of the duel and the potential impact.

Of course if you want to start a story of revenge and social interactions, you have here a great plot.

 

[Akhôrahil]

I believe this exact situation (duel, elemental) in mentioned in Travels of Biturian Varosh?

[svensson]

IMGU, dueling follows cult rules, Orlanth by default.

Orlanthi dueling customs are these:

- The duel has a specific cause; a stated goal, prize, or benefit [safe passage though a territory for example]

- Duels are openly challenged and openly agreed to

- Duels are single combats, challenger versus respondent, ONLY.

- Duels must have witnesses, sworn by their cult to abide by the rules of the duel.

- Duels have specific victory conditions, typically first blood, submission, or death

- No weregeld is applied to a duel unless multiple witnesses state that one party or the other cheated.

- Contestants in duel may use only what is in their possession.

- A duel happens within a specific area, a ring, an island, or a some other defined space.

- NO ONE may interfere with the duel.

- The victor may select one prize from the loser's gear.

Among Heortlings, there is also an additional expectation of Honor and Justice but this is more variable. A noted swordmaster who has been honor-bound to accept a challenge by a stripling might cast away his shield or use a weapon he is not master of in order to equal the odds, for example. A Humakti might slay his opponent but then pay for that opponent to be Resurrected out of his own pocket, and then additionally pay some penance to his own cult for 'supporting' Resurrection [a practice the cult opposes]. In every case, the 'Honor and Justice clause' is completely voluntary. If two men hate each other and the duel is to the death, then so be it. But Heortlings strongly believe that the more Honorable man is one who fights his duels fairly and well, and is magnanimous in victory.

There are variations to these rules.

Among Fire /Sky cults, for example, the victor is entitled to all the defeated's possessions within the dueling circle.

Among Babeester Gor, any enraged Axe Woman may start a duel at any time over any insult and the 'details' are hammered out by the clans afterwards.

Humakti have the most clear-cut dueling customs, as might be expected.

- Humakti duels are never impromptu or started out of hand.

- They take place on the seasonal holy days of Humakt, with witnesses, and usually on an old battlefield or other place sacred to the God of War.

- Humakti are never Resurrected [in fact, Initiates or greater cannot be brought back to life after Death takes them].

- Humakti must fight their duels with their sacred Humakt blade [they may own many swords, but only one of them has been sanctified to the cult -- usually this is the one with their allied spirit (in any) in them].

- All witnesses are called upon to swear by their gods to witness and uphold the honor and conditions of the duel

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by svensson

[svensson]

1 hour ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

I know of at least one duel in canon where a Humakti used a fire elemental and though some in the crowd thought it bad form she definitely won the duel. We have always played the Humakti being the most uptight about honour and following rules in duels than other cults, at least on our Glorantha. Unless the two Orlanthi established some ground rules and didn't just shout challenges and start hurling lightning then all is fair, IMO. 

 

42 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I believe this exact situation (duel, elemental) in mentioned in Travels of Biturian Varosh?

Yes, it is.

It happened as Biturian and Norayeep visited Tourney Altar. The two contestants were Lord Alain [no surname given] and Lady Naimless [yes, THAT Lady Naimless... the current Champion of the Colymar].

Naimless had lawfully been Spell Trading with other cults and had a salamander [a fire elemental] summoning available to her. She chose to use it during the duel.

HOWEVER, there is an erratum between Biturian's narrative and the cult description. Biturian claims that Alain's followers attempted a Divine Intervention to return Alain to life. But the cult description specifically states that Humakt never returns a cultist to life under any circumstances. I'm sure that other Humakti at the oasis explained this to Biturian later that evening....

Edited April 29, 2021 by svensson

[Akhôrahil]

One issue I wonder about is whether you're allowed external "pre-buffing", like someone else casting a huge Rune spell on you beforehand. It's easy to say that you can't, but then what about a spell like Bless Champion, that seems specifically to be about doing this?

[French Desperate WindChild]

10 minutes ago, svensson said:

No weregeld is applied to a duel unless multiple witnesses state that one party or the other cheated.

That is what I believed until reading this (skoh p306)

Quote

 On the downside, if they win, it is very likely the heroes owe wergild to the Greydogs; possibly a very large amount of wergild. A thane like Branduan’s wergild is 50 cattle; that of one of his companions is 25 cattle. Usually half the wergild is assessed if someone is only injured. This could easily lead to a blood feud with the Greydogs. If Branduan is killed or left dying, a blood feud with the Greydogs is certain.

thing I don't understand as it was a duel, planned and agreed

[Joerg]

10 minutes ago, svensson said:

Alain had lawfully been Spell Trading with other cults and had a salamander [a fire elemental] summoning available to him. He chose to use it during the duel.

It was Naimless who released the fire elemental.

Spoiler

Alain had to set off to Sog Ruins understrength, which later led to Biturian having to gift a Truestone with all of his magic for a week to the Chalana Arroy priestess who approached him with the Lightbringers' Summons at Horngate.

 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by Joerg

[svensson]

6 minutes ago, Joerg said:

It was Naimless who released the fire elemental.

  Reveal hidden contents

Alain had to set off to Sog Ruins understrength, which later led to Biturian having to gift a Truestone with all of his magic for a week to the Chalana Arroy priestess who approached him with the Lightbringers' Summons at Horngate.

 

 

 

Whoops, my bad. I'll correct it.

[svensson]

14 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

One issue I wonder about is whether you're allowed external "pre-buffing", like someone else casting a huge Rune spell on you beforehand. It's easy to say that you can't, but then what about a spell like Bless Champion, that seems specifically to be about doing this?

Depends on the duel.

If it is a clan champion versus clan champion duel with major stakes involved, then each clan's Rune Masters may 'buff' their champion as they wish. HOWEVER, they must do so openly at the time of the duel.

Among Humakti, Honor requires that each worshiper relies on their own spiritual power. Meaning that you may buff yourself only with your own personal MP /RP. That, of course, includes any Allied Spirits, MP crystals, bound spirits, etc.

[svensson]

19 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

That is what I believed until reading this (skoh p306)

thing I don't understand as it was a duel, planned and agreed

Different rules sets have different and often contradictory dueling customs because each cult has different powers and abilities each set.

I specifically meant my comments to apply to the RQG 'Cattle Raid' scenario, but I think my version hits the spirit of the custom pretty well.

Also, and this might help your question from SKOH, there is a long history of secret murder and 'unofficial duels' that might as well be murder. And if a duel is unofficial, it might lead to wereguild and/or outlawry. And it isn't as if Killer Baranduan or the Greydogs would care one way or the other if the Colymar outlawed him anyway.

[Akhôrahil]

3 minutes ago, svensson said:

Also, and this might help your question from SKOH, there is a long history of secret murder and 'unofficial duels' that might as well be murder. And if a duel is unofficial, it might lead to wereguild and/or outlawry. And it isn't as if Killer Baranduan or the Greydogs would care one way or the other if the Colymar outlawed him anyway.

It's also easy to see how even a completely legit duel could turn into a feud when emotions run high (and this being Orlanthi society, when don't they?). Maybe you're supposed to respect the outcome, but hey, no-one can make you do anything and violence is always an option... 

Edited April 29, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

It's also easy to see how even a completely legit duel could turn into a feud when emotions run high (and this being Orlanthi society, when don't they?). Maybe you're supposed to respect the outcome, but hey, no-one can make you do anything and violence is always an option... 

About the only duels that can't lead to a feud are those between Humakti. Those are considered sacred rites, no matter how much the individual duelists may feel about each other, and nobody but nobody wants to get in the middle of those guys when they decide to mix it up.

[Kloster]

17 minutes ago, svensson said:

nobody wants to get in the middle of those guys when they decide to mix it up.

Yes. The way I see it, both duelists are able to stop their duel, kill the intervening person together, and restart their duel afterwards.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

One strict Humakt dueling rule that has been left out:

No Sever Spirit

 

 

[svensson]

13 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

One strict Humakt dueling rule that has been left out:

No Sever Spirit

 

 

Absolutely true. Humakti duels must be fought, in the open, with swords. If magic assists the fight, that's acceptable. But magic may not take the place of an open fight.

Furthermore, magics such as Sever Spirit and Mind Blast are forbidden in Heortling culture, period. There is very little Courageous, or Honorable, or Just about simply pumping Rune Points at someone. A 'proper' duel is fought weapon to weapon.

Which, of course, doesn't mean that such spells are never used. Orlanthi behavior is remarkably consistent in its inconsistency. A well-told lie that hides a truth the community would rather not acknowledge is  staple of Orlanthi myth and Heortling lore.

[Darius West]

On 4/29/2021 at 1:18 PM, Ironwall said:

So I started my Runequest game and i ran the cattle Raid scenario one of my players decided to deal with the situation when the Orvelings arrived by challenging the leader to a duel. He won by summoning a Air elemental who lifted the leader up and made him fall to death. so i didnt think of it at the time but i imagince using a spirit in a duel would be a rather bad thing to orlanthi society but is that the case, also what are any common rules for duels that exist for future refrence.

There is a huge difference between a Humakti duel and single combat.  In single combat the only rule is that nobody outside the 2 combatants is allowed to interfere, and it normally takes place on a battlefield or during a skirmish.  Duels by the code of Humakt are far more negotiated affairs.

On 4/29/2021 at 5:56 PM, svensson said:

Biturian claims that Alain's followers attempted a Divine Intervention to return Alain to life. But the cult description specifically states that Humakt never returns a cultist to life under any circumstances. I'm sure that other Humakti at the oasis explained this to Biturian later that evening....

People often forget that Humakti don't come back from death... Ever...

[svensson]

18 minutes ago, Darius West said:

 

 

18 minutes ago, Darius West said:

On 4/28/2021 at 8:18 PM, Ironwall said:

So I started my Runequest game and i ran the cattle Raid scenario one of my players decided to deal with the situation when the Orvelings arrived by challenging the leader to a duel. He won by summoning a Air elemental who lifted the leader up and made him fall to death. so i didnt think of it at the time but i imagince using a spirit in a duel would be a rather bad thing to orlanthi society but is that the case, also what are any common rules for duels that exist for future refrence.

There is a huge difference between a Humakti duel and single combat.  In single combat the only rule is that nobody outside the 2 combatants is allowed to interfere, and it normally takes place on a battlefield or during a skirmish.  Duels by the code of Humakt are far more negotiated affairs

I think the OP is implying that, in the 'Cattle Raid' scenario, the PC's have challenged the Orleving thane Deseros to a duel to regain the cattle taken. He then wanted to know how such a duel might be fought.

This is different than a single combat in the midst of battle or a skirmish. Single combats during battle are very much a 'come as you are' affair, with little or no negotiation. About the only hard and fast rules in such a situation are those you and I agree on: a] no one may interfere, b] no wereguild is sued for [other than that attendant to the battle result], and c] that the results are no cause bloodfeud [again, beyond that which caused the battle in the first place] in and of themselves.

Edited April 30, 2021 by svensson

[skulldixon]

When I ran the duel, it was stated before hand that the only spells that could be used were ones that you cast on yourself. No Summoning and no attack spells.

They discussed and negotiated the terms of the duel beforehand with opposed rolls.

The win condition was surrender or death. 

The prize was a, if the PC won the Orleving thane would take 5 of the cattle and leave.

If the Orleving Thane won, then they would take the 50 cattle and ransom the Herdsmen that were present - PC could leave though.

 

Edited May 2, 2021 by skulldixon

[Akhôrahil]

21 hours ago, skulldixon said:

 

If the Orleving Thane won, then they would take the 50 cattle and ransom the Herdsmen that were present - PC could leave though.

I keep giving my players opportunities to attempt to solve things through dueling, but they’re not biting. May have something to do with no-one having a combat job...

Edited May 3, 2021 by Akhôrahil