Oshjalaba, the Stream?

[AlHazred]

Not sure anymore of the canonicity of Masters of Luck and Death for HeroQuest 1E, but I was rereading it and came across this bit in the section on the White Chapel of Purity.

Quote

In the Quivin Mountains is a stream of pure essential water--it has no daimones or spirits, only pure essence water originating in the Essence Planes. As it flows from the headwaters called Oshjalaba, theistic and even a few animistic rivers flow into it, diluting the waters... Oshjalaba has been here since the time of Danmalastan. In the Third Action, Malkion blessed the place. At that moment, the barrier to the Essence Planes was breached and the Stream Maiden flowed into the World of Matter...

When I was working up campaign materials for my original Hero Wars campaign, I had the notes that the River is worshipped as a god (Engizi the Skyriver Titan), the Creek is invoked as a spirit (Krikans), and the Stream is Essence water. There's an image of Heortling icons of The Creek, The Stream, and The River in Dragon Pass: A Gazetteer of Kerofinela pg 46, implying that the theists of Sartar are at least cognizant on some level of there being a difference in the entities, and even if they are all remembered with reverence in yearly rites I'd imagine practitioners of Krikans and followers of the Stream would receive strange looks and experience some distance from other Heortlings.

But while we get an idea of what the Krikans practice might look like from his entry in HeroQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha pg 149 (probably with spirits like "Purify Water" and "Sense Water Pollution" among others,) we never really get a good idea of what the religious/magical practices of The Stream would be. The White Chapel of Purity entry has a writeup for "Saint Bertorl, Patron of Missionaries," but that seems to be a magical practice brought by Westerners in an earlier age. The Engizi myth has all three brothers working together in the God Age to defeat chaos.

Wouldn't there be something  left over from an earlier age? In HQ1/HW terms (my preferred edition), would they have a scripture/formulary/grimoire (maybe something preserved by the Alchemists) or would they use read their magic from the patterns of the currents and rivulets as they water enters the Mortal World? What sort of chaos-fighting magic would they provide? Engizi seems to provide feats like "Cleansing Waters," "Drown Chaos Enemy," and "Wash Enemy Down River" based on Storm Tribe pg 214-215; in the newer edition, in Sartar Companion pg 265, he's a subcult of Heler who provides magic to command the river and its waters. Would The Stream provide essentially the same powers as spells?

EDIT: Wow, completely forgot the question that led to the title. Would the Stream's "name" in early myths be "Oshjalaba," like the headwaters?

"Creek, and Stream, and River, all three by magic divided.
River, and Creek, and Stream, all three by kinship united.
Stream, and River, and Creek. Essence, Soul, Spirit."
--Drofats the Dittyman

Edited June 28, 2021 by AlHazred

[jajagappa]

59 minutes ago, AlHazred said:

Not sure anymore of the canonicity of Masters of Luck and Death for HeroQuest 1E

It's not.

59 minutes ago, AlHazred said:

I had the notes that the River is worshipped as a god (Engizi the Skyriver Titan), the Creek is invoked as a spirit (Krikans), and the Stream is Essence water.

This division was very much HW/HQ 1.0.  I think such distinction has pretty much been discarded.

1 hour ago, AlHazred said:

The White Chapel of Purity entry has a writeup for "Saint Bertorl, Patron of Missionaries," but that seems to be a magical practice brought by Westerners in an earlier age. The Engizi myth has all three brothers working together in the God Age to defeat chaos.

I don't think you'll find any texts going in this direction.  However, if this is an approach you're working with in your game, then the Essence approach should be an approach of logically working with Runes and sorcerous techniques.  The practices might be outlined in a grimoire or the like.  Steps to "unlock" each aspect must be approached logically, in sequence, and solved correctly.  Think of it as a series of mathematical formulas to work through.

[AlHazred]

38 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

It's not.

Ah well. I liked that supplement.

38 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

This division was very much HW/HQ 1.0.  I think such distinction has pretty much been discarded.

I'm aware, but it's still my favorite of the current iterations. I modified Misapplied Worship, but I like the complexity of religion and I'm a huge fan of the way Secrets gave each god/spirit/saint an interesting twist.  

38 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I don't think you'll find any texts going in this direction.  However, if this is an approach you're working with in your game, then the Essence approach should be an approach of logically working with Runes and sorcerous techniques.  The practices might be outlined in a grimoire or the like.  Steps to "unlock" each aspect must be approached logically, in sequence, and solved correctly.  Think of it as a series of mathematical formulas to work through.

Unfortunate, but not unexpected. Where you're going is more-or-less what I had in mind with my comment on "patterns." I pictured mystics watching the waters and interpreting swirls and currents in the Stream, somewhat in the way the weavers interpreted flaws generated by the Loom of Fate in the movie Wanted (2008), but less specifically Binary. 🙂

[Tindalos]

4 hours ago, AlHazred said:

Ah well. I liked that supplement.

Same, and there's no reason not to use it.

Just have to figure out a way that works for your campaign.

 

Let's start with Oshjalaba. They're unlikely to be the Stream itself, as the Stream is usually depicted as Engizi's brother.

What could be fun is some maps (Such as Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes 283, or the Land of Thunder map) show a tributary of Kjartan's Lake which acts as a border between the Balmyr and the Quivini mountains. This doesn't exist on other maps, so you could have it be Oshjalaba's Stream, forgotten due to the general powers of forgetfulness in the area. Oshjalaba's a neriad, daughter of the Stream and yet friendly with sorcerers due to kinship with Malkion. She acts as the Chapter's wyter, through a deal with the leader of the sorcerers.

The White Chapel of Purity's write up mentions it was originally founded in the Dawn Age by a group of Malvonian adepts. Malvonians are described here, and are sorcerers who have the power to repel Erasanchula and the like, giving examples of their spells. Given the healing focus of the band, it's likely that their particular spells dealt with *disease* spirits, with spells like Remain Untouched by Disease and Dispel Disease Spirit. This also gives them a useful role, because of different way their magic work, they're effectively an unexpected threat for disease.

Their strict rules include avoiding blood (which results in their pacifism), vegetarianism, and celibacy, trying to maintain purity through this. It also means that those who do stumble across them may mistake them for Chalana Arroyists at first.

 

 

 

 

[Charles]

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

8 hours ago, AlHazred said:

I had the notes that the River is worshipped as a god (Engizi the Skyriver Titan), the Creek is invoked as a spirit (Krikans), and the Stream is Essence water.

This division was very much HW/HQ 1.0.  I think such distinction has pretty much been discarded.

My understanding is that the rules distinction has been discarded. I think that many (most?) Gloranthan people believe that there is a distinction and many Gloranthan otherworld entities believe that there is a distinction (typically the less powerful and less knowledgable). So I would suggest that you can use the distinction in your stories, without having to have special rules. Or, if you don't like any form of this particular distinction, then blithely ignore it.

[Martin]

Just as aside

I wrote the White Chapel of Purity but dont recall doing Saint Bertorl. I just made up the stuff about the Oshjalaba

 

 The stuff about the 3 divisions of water was based on a whole load of texts i was workingon at the time about the merfolk and the origins of the waters of the Mudane World  ...bascially the 3 waters were trying to become one ever since there were divided.

FWIW I just checked Greg's master map and there is for sure a Monestary near Owlflfight Crest at the head of Lorthing Valley

Edited June 29, 2021 by Martin

[Joerg]

The seas encompass all of the Three Worlds, and Lorion as a third generation sea entity is close enough to the original cast of sea powers that he and his brothers could each take one of those worlds for their own. The three children of Zaramaka had at least three possible pairings to sire and give birth to the next generations, and while we think of Heler, Triolina and Nelat as deities, not all of their offspring necessarily belong to the Gods World. Lorion appears to be a sibling or descendant of the Manthi. It may have been his conquest of the Sky World and bringing down those waters which made him so thoroughly tied into the Gods World as the Sky World is usually regarded as part of that even under the HW/HQ1 doctrine.

[David Scott]

13 hours ago, AlHazred said:

Not sure anymore of the canonicity of Masters of Luck and Death for HeroQuest 1E, but I was rereading it and came across this bit in the section on the White Chapel of Purity.

If you can fit it in -  use it, otherwise use the newer river material in Red Cow, Heortling Mythology and RQG. Canon is only applicable if you are writing for official publications. See also References for Glorantha - https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/glorantha-2/references-for-glorantha-2021/

13 hours ago, AlHazred said:

When I was working up campaign materials for my original Hero Wars campaign, I had the notes that the River is worshipped as a god (Engizi the Skyriver Titan), the Creek is invoked as a spirit (Krikans), and the Stream is Essence water. There's an image of Heortling icons of The Creek, The Stream, and The River in Dragon Pass: A Gazetteer of Kerofinela pg 46, implying that the theists of Sartar are at least cognizant on some level of there being a difference in the entities, and even if they are all remembered with reverence in yearly rites I'd imagine practitioners of Krikans and followers of the Stream would receive strange looks and experience some distance from other Heortlings.

With real world river spirits/gods each tributary is a separate spirit that joins and becomes one / many. They are regarded as kin, usually with the same power / attributes. I imagine that those along its banks understand this from the perspective of their part of the water course. I don't think anyone views the others as strange. 

13 hours ago, AlHazred said:

But while we get an idea of what the Krikans practice might look like from his entry in HeroQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha pg 149 (probably with spirits like "Purify Water" and "Sense Water Pollution" among others,) we never really get a good idea of what the religious/magical practices of The Stream would be.

Creek and Stream are subservient cults (and daughters) of Engizi, giving Flood and Summon Salmon respectively. They work as most river cults do.

Personally I'd ignore the essence water and treat the stream as part of Engizi's mythology. Although you are using HeroQuest, have a look at in Engizi's magic in RQG.

See also

• Sartar KoH, Creek Kolating spirit society p74
• Heortling Mythology page 46 for Krikans story. The whole section, Myths of Dragon Pass - These are stories about the great landscape gods and spirits of Dragon Pass, covers the Creek stream River, Engizi, in addition to Krikans.
• https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/prosopaedia/deities/e/engizi/ references to Engizi cult writeups.

 

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Martin said:

FWIW I just checked Greg's master map and there is for sure a Monestary near Owlflfight Crest at the head of Lorthing Valley

There's also a Nunnery at the head of Sazdorf Valley and the two are connected by the Old Saints Road (Map - the Coming Storm p69 - which doesn't describe them sadly).  Hopefully the Starter Set will have details.  

[Ali the Helering]

12 hours ago, AlHazred said:

I'm aware, but it's still my favorite of the current iterations. I modified Misapplied Worship, but I like the complexity of religion and I'm a huge fan of the way Secrets gave each god/spirit/saint an interesting twist.  

Amen, brother AlHazred.  Shall we gather at the river, the beautiful Creek/Stream/River?

[AlHazred]

7 hours ago, Martin said:

I wrote the White Chapel of Purity but dont recall doing Saint Bertorl. I just made up the stuff about the Oshjalaba

Well I hope you don't mind me picking apart your work for my own lunacy. Was the White Maiden of Purity meant to be the actual essence of the Stream personified, or was she more like the Essence equivalent of a nymph?

7 hours ago, Martin said:

FWIW I just checked Greg's master map and there is for sure a Monestary near Owlflfight Crest at the head of Lorthing Valley

Hm. I'm not seeing it in the AAA or the map that came with the Dragon Pass Gazetteer. But the Lorthing Valley drains to the Creek, right?

From my notes, I was picturing something like this, just I always thought it should have a name attached. Also, I kept vacillating between defining it as a Church or as a Wizardry School.

The Stream

Something about the Stream's effects on the Gods War, and the eventual union of Creek, Stream, and River, and the society formed by those with essences instead of souls or spirits. I love the idea @Joergtouched on about the brothers predating the division into Realms.

Entry Requirements: To join the society one must belong to the Storm Tribe. The hero may use Storm Tribe Knowledge as their Church Knowledge for the purposes of the contest (at a -10 modifier). The hero must concentrate in Wizardry.

Churches: None.

Abilities: Bletonomancy, Know the Stream, Resist Chaos, Rule of the Stream, Survive Wounds.

      Liturgists only--Venerate the Stream.

Virtues: Creative, Enduring.

Typical Relationship: Member of the Society of the Stream.

Scripture: The Lessons of Ebb and Flow

      Common Blessings--Bypass Obstacle, Recognize Chaos, Reconsecrate Talismans, Sense Need of Kin, Water Purification ritual.

      Special Blessings--Bless Journey, Find Path, Reunion ritual, Wash Away Chaos Foe.

      Curses--Lose Your Way, Wash Away Memory.

Formularies:

      Patterns of Life (Avoid Hostile Blow, Calm Surging Stream, Overcome Enemy God, Overcome Pagan Spirit, Ride Out Storm, Turn Aside Hostile Essence, Work Through Pain)

      (Orderlies can gain spells through careful contemplation of the swirls of eddies and currents in the water. Many spells are possible, as the Stream contains an infinitude of possibilities.)

Talismans: Orderlies use intricately embroidered scarves and shawls made with many hues of blue thread as their talismans.

Other Side: The Source of the Stream lies in the Venerable Plane, flowing through the lower layers of the Essence Planes before reaching the Mundane World through a tear at Oshjalaba in Sartar. Along the way, the Stream touches many Saint Nodes, allowing travel for worthy essences.

Disadvantages: Followers of the Stream 

[Martin]

On 6/29/2021 at 6:37 PM, AlHazred said:

Well I hope you don't mind me picking apart your work for my own lunacy. Was the White Maiden of Purity meant to be the actual essence of the Stream personified, or was she more like the Essence equivalent of a nymph?

Not at all, yes she was created an an Essence Nymph 

[Akhôrahil]

I kinda like the idea that the locals realize it’s different but don’t really have the conceptual framework to do much with it. Sorcery is incredibly underdeveloped in Sartar, so hardly anyone would even understand it.

A sorcerer probably would, but would you really allow a soulless atheist do important stuff to your local flow of water? Nothing good can come of it, surely!

Edited July 4, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Leingod]

On 6/28/2021 at 7:55 PM, Tindalos said:

Let's start with Oshjalaba. They're unlikely to be the Stream itself, as the Stream is usually depicted as Engizi's brother.

There is that, but as (Tar)Heler(a) proves, gender tends to be a fluid concept when dealing with the powers of Water.

[Revilo Divad Of Dyoll]

12 hours ago, Leingod said:

gender tends to be a fluid concept when dealing with the powers of Water

Please, no more puns.