What does Gagarth offer?

[EricW]

On 7/24/2021 at 1:25 AM, coffeemancer said:

He hunts the most dangerous game... heroquesters

Since we're resurrecting this thread 🙂

If Gargarthi hunt hero questers on the heroplane, the obvious reward for successfully hunting a heroquester is to rob them of their heroquest abilities - vengeance for what Orlanth did to Gargarth before time. 

[Ynneadwraith]

4 hours ago, EricW said:

Since we're resurrecting this thread 🙂

If Gargarthi hunt hero questers on the heroplane, the obvious reward for successfully hunting a heroquester is to rob them of their heroquest abilities - vengeance for what Orlanth did to Gargarth before time. 

Now that would make for some interesting Gagarthi encounters. You rock up expecting wind magic and get hit with a perplexing mix of random magic the Gagarthi leader has stolen from various different magic users they've mythically mugged...

Or do you mean they rob people of the very ability to heroquest itself, which would be an appropriately terrifying ability for a Gagarthi Big Villain. 'You've been mugged of your ability to heroquest, and have to go steal it back'.

Edited January 26 by Ynneadwraith

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Ynneadwraith said:

Or do you mean they rob people of the very ability to heroquest itself, which would be an appropriately terrifying ability for a Gagarthi Big Villain. “You’ve been mugged of your ability to heroquest, and have to go steal it back.”

Which may be tricky if your muggers are still on the heroplane?

In which case, perhaps the best revenge is to lock them out of the mundane world and to turn the otherworlds into a sort of Gloranthan Phantom Zone, with Arkat, Orlanth, and company as the General Zods of the setting.

One reading of what happens in the Fourth Age. Finish the job which the “creation of time” was supposed to have accomplished. YGWV.

[Darius West]

At least we now have the info to hand.  All our questions answered on pages 91-94 of Cults of Glorantha; The Lightbringers.  Nobody likes Gagarth enough to be an associated cult.

[Ynneadwraith]

28 minutes ago, Darius West said:

At least we now have the info to hand.  All our questions answered on pages 91-94 of Cults of Glorantha; The Lightbringers.  Nobody likes Gagarth enough to be an associated cult.

True, though I like to view the Cults book (and pretty much all official works) through the lens of The Unreliable Narrator. Whoever it is who is telling us the information in the Cults books is going to be from a point in time, and from a particular place (and that place is very unlikely to be Gagarthi). A Lightbringers Cult Book will give a Lightbringers-centric worldview. Of course they're going to say that Gagarth has no friends (though that doesn't necessarily make them wrong).

Perhaps he does. Perhaps he doesn't. But Lightbringery folk are unlikely to give you an accurate answer either way. YGWV.

[Darius West]

34 minutes ago, Ynneadwraith said:

True, though I like to view the Cults book (and pretty much all official works) through the lens of The Unreliable Narrator. Whoever it is who is telling us the information in the Cults books is going to be from a point in time, and from a particular place (and that place is very unlikely to be Gagarthi). A Lightbringers Cult Book will give a Lightbringers-centric worldview. Of course they're going to say that Gagarth has no friends (though that doesn't necessarily make them wrong).

Perhaps he does. Perhaps he doesn't. But Lightbringery folk are unlikely to give you an accurate answer either way. YGWV.

Gagarth doesn't seem like the type to have many friends.  Probably Vadrus was his only associated cult, but Vadrus is dead now.

[Jeff]

Gagarth is associated with nobody. His cult is friendly with nobody (although it is neutral towards plenty of cults, including Humakt, Orlanth, Storm Bull, and Waha. 

As Vadrus never had a cult, I'm uncertain of his relationship to Gagarth. But it was probably no better than neutral. 

Gagarth is one of those things you sacrifice to when you really have nobody else who will accept you. He's not as bad as Chaos, but the best thing you can say about him is that it is sometimes possibly to get him to attack people other than you.

[The Prettiest Parrot]

You all have put a thought in my head. Gagarth presumably isn't the only outlaw god in the world. Non-Orlanthi presumably have some sort of god of/for awful people, even if they don't have the same social structure for outlawry. Maybe as actual cults, maybe as cautionary tales that you could worship, if you got desperate. I'd expect to see some local heroes or spirits or what have you that take a similar role, too. Everyone knows you shouldn't go anywhere near that mountain, because the spirit hides anyone who makes the right sacrifices, or whatever.

They probably don't like each other; Gagarth has no associated cults, and it's not like outlaws are the friendliest fellows. So how do they interact? There's probably a nucleus of a good adventure or Heroquest or something in 'the story of how the outlaw gods shared out the turf' or something. Or maybe something exploring how outlaws come into conflict with Chaos without being heroes. This is really a half-baked notion but I think it's interesting to think about.

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, The Prettiest Parrot said:

Non-Orlanthi presumably have some sort of god of/for awful people

Yes: Orlanth.

[Joerg]

Outlawry is a required experience for Orlanthi adulthood - the Koryonos gangs undergone by intitiees. This is a stage of transgression by the youths (including making sexual experiences despite not being adults yet).

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Outlawry is a required experience for Orlanthi adulthood - the Koryonos gangs undergone by intitiees. This is a stage of transgression by the youths (including making sexual experiences despite not being adults yet).

I really don't know how you came to that conclusion.

[Joerg]

The one thing that is taboo about the Koryonos gangs is to attack their own (clan) kin. If these gangs are assembled by tribe or even city confederation, that immunity is extended to the contributors' communities.

To live as a bandit, to survive in the wild and to go on cattle and sheep raids is part of this "fly with the Vadrudi" experience.

Re-enacting the Tales of Tat and Tol definitely is an option in these years before the final adulthood rites. Quoting from Vasana's Apprenticeship:

Quote

Some even learned the mysteries of sex with women (some may have already learned the mysteries of sex with other young men).

The entire experience is an in-between status, which makes it both magical and attractive to the Godtime. The actual "Evil Uncles" and "Quest for the Star Heart" are just the finishing touches.

The main difference to joining Gagarth is that there is a way back into the orderly society, to become grounded in the business of farming, pursuing a craft, or following a great leader in a military or magical role.

In civilized urban Sartar, this procedure might seem positively Spartanic, and I wonder where Esrolian and especially Nochet boys are sent to undergo such an experience.

[radmonger]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Outlawry is a required experience for Orlanthi adulthood - the Koryonos gangs undergone by intitiees. This is a stage of transgression by the youths (including making sexual experiences despite not being adults yet).

I could see some Orlanthi-adjacent storm-worshipping societies actually having that form of Koryos tradition. But I think it is pretty clear that for actual Orlanthi, starting the adulthood initiation on the Other Side replaces having it in Other People's Territory.

Note that the Starfire Ridges are in Colymar territory; Vasana was on a 'boy scout' style camping and training trip, with the occasional cattle raid. Not off doing proto-imperialism.

There are a few hints that something more like  the RW-Koryos existed in Orlanthi history. In the Dawn Age, the Lightbringer culture was spread by 'missionaries'.  And at the earliest stage of that,  the Other Side could literally mean the other side of the river. This matches the way historians now think real-world proto-Indo European culture spread.

In the LightBringers book, an initiate of Yinkin must spend a year alone in 'the wilds'. My take that this, and other hunter cults,  is mostly a route to adulthood for those who 'failed' the ritual of the pits. As a hunter they will have full clan membership as a functional and useful person, albeit low status,

 

Edited January 27 by radmonger

[radmonger]

10 minutes ago, Joerg said:

where Esrolian and especially Nochet boys are sent to undergo such an experienc

Queen of Cities has adulthood start with a visit to the Other Side in the Grace Temple, followed by 2 to 3 years service in either the militia, a temple or apprenticeship.

 

 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

Queen of Cities has adulthood start with a visit to the Other Side in the Grace Temple, followed by 2 to 3 years service in either the militia, a temple or apprenticeship.

Does this apply to the 20k Sartarites (or Sartarite descended citizens) in Nochet, too? Symbolic "survival in the mountains" on Orlanth's Hill overlooking the Lyksos narrows doesn't quite seem to replace the preparations Vasana underwent, and spending a year in banditry in the Antones Estates sounds like a capital letters Bad Idea to me. (Suggesting that there are some groups in Nochet's underbelly doing just this...)

Any appearance of the WIld Hunt in Nochet would be highly disruptive, possibly a Sacred Time problem. Having local Gagarthi (possibly hanging out in the Antones Estates the rest of the year) as genuine bad boys for such rites might be advantageous over having to face the full Other Side impact or Orlanthi raider kings capitalizing on that role. (Possibly something Broyan might have done to overcome Hendira's rule?)

[Bohemond]

So there is one major difference between Orlanth and Gagarth--Orlanth is tied to Ernalda, and Earth calms Storm. So when Orlanth is thinking about violence, Ernalda reminds him that there's always other ways to address the problem. Socially, that means that Ernaldans often act to constrain Orlanthi.

Gagarth is essentially Orlanth unbound from Ernalda. Violence isn't just an option, it's the only real choice. Both Orlanth and Gagarth engage in raiding and plunder, but Gagarth is restrained only by the other side's ability to fight back. Orlanthi occasionally injure the herders or guards when they steal cows, but the ideal cattle raid avoids opposition entirely, and they generally try to avoid killing because that is likely to trigger a feud, and Ernalda reminds Orlanth that feuds are very disruptive to the community. Gagarthi, in contrast, have no compunctions against killing the herders because they don't care about the repercussions. They aren't in a community, so feuding affects them much less. 

Orlanthi might kidnap someone and hold them for ransom, but there are rules--you treat the guests with some degree of respect because if you don't a feud will probably result. If for some reason you kidnap a woman, you don't violate her because that will deeply offend Ernalda and probably bring Babeester Gori after you. But Gagarthi don't worry about that sort of thing. They don't care what Ernalda thinks and they feel they're tough enough to deal with the Gori.

Gagarthi terrorize people in a way that Orlanthi seldom do. An act like burning a stead is probably reserved for a hated enemy, but Gagarthi are glad to do that because it creates fear and confusion. An Orlanthi would never plunder a temple to a Heortling deity, but Gagarthi know there's a lot of treasure to be claimed that way. Orlanthi probably don't mutiliate their victims, but Gagarthi are free to be as sadistic as they want to. 

So Gagarth might not offer a lot of formal benefits in terms of the rule systems (their magic is certainly not stronger than Orlanth's overall), but what they offer in freedom from the rules Orlanthi follows is considerable, at least as long as you keep moving around enough to dodge the consequences. 

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Bohemond said:

 

Gagarth is essentially Orlanth unbound from Ernalda.

I'd go further than that. Gagarth is Orlanth unbound from Orlanth, Storm Bull unbound from Storm Bull. Orlanth demands Honor. Gagarth does not. Storm Bull demands his initiates fight Chaos. Gagarth demands nothing from his worshippers - being an outlaw from the rest of society is demand enough.

Gagarth is forced to aid Orlanth when demanded, but that is almost always reluctant and with a price.

 

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

To what extent do Storm Pentans WORSHIP the East Sting Wind (ie. Gagarth) as opposed to just offer propitiatory sacrifice?

[Cassius]

On 1/27/2024 at 9:37 AM, Joerg said:

Outlawry is a required experience for Orlanthi adulthood - the Koryonos gangs undergone by intitiees.

I see this initiation time a little differently. These boys, who are no longer children and not yet adults, experience the frontier during their adulthood initiation. The physical frontier of the clan or tribe: this is where they set up camp and live most of the time. The frontier of humans and gods. The frontier of law and illegality.

They're not outside the law, in my opinion, but on its edge. They must learn to respect the common law, while being given the freedom to transgress it. Savagery and violence are what they must resist to become full adults, to become truly Orlanthi.

Edited January 28 by Cassius

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, Cassius said:

I see this initiation time a little differently. These boys, who are no longer children and not yet adults, experience the frontier during their adulthood initiation. The physical frontier of the clan or tribe: this is where they set up camp and live most of the time. The frontier of humans and gods. The frontier of law and illegality.

I agree that the boys during that stage are in an inbetween stage, but this is a time to make mistakes, a time which may bring them outside of the law.

 

7 hours ago, Cassius said:

They're not outside the law, in my opinion, but on its edge. They must learn to respect the common law, while being given the freedom to transgress it. Savagery and violence are what they must resist to become full adults, to become truly Orlanthi.

I wonder how well informed they are about precedences and the finer terms of law. They take up weapons, something that children have been forbidden to do. They start to engage in fighting, in raiding, in sex, and possibly in magic.

If caught in raiding, captive boys may be treated like outlaws, although possibly just as another initiatory experience.

[Ynneadwraith]

16 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

To what extent do Storm Pentans WORSHIP the East Sting Wind (ie. Gagarth) as opposed to just offer propitiatory sacrifice?

This is what I was getting at with the whole 'unreliable narrator' thing. The way I see it, the vision of Gagarth we get in the Cults book is an Orlanthi (focus:Dragon Pass) one. Other cultures may see a different facet, which might rhyme with the Orlanthi one but isn't quite the same tune.

Perhaps they see qualities in Gagarth that the Orlanthi do not. Perhaps they see qualities in Gagarth that don't even exist in the Orlanthi version.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. It is an interesting opportunity to vary your Glorantha.

[Jeff]

17 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

To what extent do Storm Pentans WORSHIP the East Sting Wind (ie. Gagarth) as opposed to just offer propitiatory sacrifice?

In Pent, Gagarth was one of the gods the survivors of the Nights of Horror reached out to. He's a brutal, vicious, and frightful god, but he enabled survival, alongside Orlanth, Humakt, and Storm Bull. These were all enemy gods, but its shows how much the Nights of Horror shocked the Pentans to their core that many of them embraced such demon gods. 

[kalidor]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

In Pent, Gagarth was one of the gods the survivors of the Nights of Horror reached out to. He's a brutal, vicious, and frightful god, but he enabled survival, alongside Orlanth, Humakt, and Storm Bull. These were all enemy gods, but its shows how much the Nights of Horror shocked the Pentans to their core that many of them embraced such demon gods. 

Thanks for the info Jeff. Is Dranz Goloi a storm follower or a  Solar follower?

[Akhôrahil]

Today in play I likened Storm Bulls to an outlaw biker gang who just so happens to also fight monsters. If Storm Bulls didn't have a useful purpose in fighting Chaos, they would be completely socially unacceptable, hardly any better than Gagarth.

Orlanth, Humakt and Storm Bull all found something to differentiate them from mere brutes and bullies (like Vadrus and maybe even Umath). Gagarth went the other direction, embracing it.

[EricW]

On 1/29/2024 at 6:28 AM, Akhôrahil said:

Today in play I likened Storm Bulls to an outlaw biker gang who just so happens to also fight monsters. If Storm Bulls didn't have a useful purpose in fighting Chaos, they would be completely socially unacceptable, hardly any better than Gagarth.

Orlanth, Humakt and Storm Bull all found something to differentiate them from mere brutes and bullies (like Vadrus and maybe even Umath). Gagarth went the other direction, embracing it.

I get the impression Gargarthi are also kind of lazy? They're opportunists rather than an organised threat?  Orlanthi, Humakt and Storm Bull make an effort, while Gargathi brutalise and rob people because the beer ran out? They're the dirty slobs on your street who terrorise the local kids and piss on your lawn?

Edited January 30 by EricW