Going Heroquesting

[Lordabdul]

There has been a lot of stuff written about playing heroquests: the "SuperRuneQuest" rules, the "stick to the stations, watch out for surprises" play-throughs, the "weirdness and ad-hoc narrative mechanics all the way down" approach, and so on. That's all fine, but I want to know what different ways people handle going *into* a heroquest in the first place? And for this thread I specifically want to talk about so-called "Hero-plane" and "Other-world" heroquests, i.e. when you actually leave the mundane world.

1. How do you trigger the heroquest voluntarily? I've seen it done with either a Rune Spell or Spirit Magic Spell that lets you "go through the threshold". I've seen it done with a simple Rune affinity roll at "some opportune time". I've seen it done basically automatically given "some" appropriate situation (whatever that is). What do you use in your game?
2. Does your Glorantha have involuntary heroquesting? In which case, how does it happen? Is it automatic (gamemaster fiat/railroading), or is there more to it? Do your players have to be careful when they cast too much Rune Magic or when they quote a popular folk song about Orlanth while waving a shield?
3. What kind of resources do you need to start the heroquest in your Glorantha? Can you trigger the heroquest on your own with two sticks and a piece of rope? Does a clan festival, a cult temple, some regalia, the right time of year, and other such things simply increase your odds of succeeding, or are they absolutely required?

Thanks!

[Squaredeal Sten]

1. An unnamed rune spell cast by a priest.

2. Yes but haven't done that yet.  Throwing an unprepared party into a heroquest is too daring for me.

3. As I wrote, a priest with intent.  

Edited October 1, 2021 by Squaredeal Sten
spelling, my nemesis.

[Akhôrahil]

 

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

How do you trigger the heroquest voluntarily? I've seen it done with either a Rune Spell or Spirit Magic Spell that lets you "go through the threshold". I've seen it done with a simple Rune affinity roll at "some opportune time". I've seen it done basically automatically given "some" appropriate situation (whatever that is). What do you use in your game?

Happens when you do the right kinds of ritual actions in the correct setting, but it would make sense to have a skill for it (I could buy a "HeroQuesting" skill, or else just Cult Lore). Possibly one like Worship, that will essentially always work with enough bonuses. I believe you "slide" into it, never quite realizing you've entered a Hero Realm until it's already happened.

(And then there's "This World" heroquests.) 

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Does your Glorantha have involuntary heroquesting? In which case, how does it happen? Is it automatic (gamemaster fiat/railroading), or is there more to it? Do your players have to be careful when they cast too much Rune Magic or when they quote a popular folk song about Orlanth while waving a shield?

Yes, both hostile and accidental. Case in point, last session the PCs were ascending Thunder Mountain because they had this (actually good) plan of getting their prize ewe bred by Vorios the Thunder Ram. Near the summit (which is clearly no longer fully mundane), they stumbled - unprepared - on a Gagarthi heroquester trying to hunt the Storm Ram with his improvised Wild Hunt equivalent (a collection of various ghosts, air elementals, hunting hounds and crazed human followers). It was hella nasty at first (any time fairly new characters are outnumbered four to one by anything it's scary), but fortunately for them, Vorios critted on the first roll once he got into action, and that's all she wrote. (We did have one PC down to 1 HP and two players one spirit combat roll from possession, though... I have no idea how my players manage to keep getting to a crisis point and then dig themselves out of it.)

(They also ran into various heroquesters from history, because I don't believe time works the normal way in hero realms. Who's this Jotorang Ingkarthorson, anyway?)

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

What kind of resources do you need to start the heroquest in your Glorantha? Can you trigger the heroquest on your own with two sticks and a piece of rope? Does a clan festival, a cult temple, some regalia, the right time of year, and other such things simply increase your odds of succeeding, or are they absolutely required?

I see this as a bit like Worship - maybe you can do it with the bare minimum, but why risk it? I would put the items you list as bonuses, not outright requirements. Possibly excluding some kind of Sacred Ground, from temple/santificy/sacred location, which might be a requirement.

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

How do you trigger the heroquest voluntarily? I've seen it done with either a Rune Spell or Spirit Magic Spell that lets you "go through the threshold". I've seen it done with a simple Rune affinity roll at "some opportune time". I've seen it done basically automatically given "some" appropriate situation (whatever that is). What do you use in your game?

Worship!  What happens during your temple rituals?  You invoke the worship of the deity and that brings the mundane and the God Time together.  No need for other spells, it's just a phenomenon of the ritual that initiates all know and experience. 

Now, some specific quests need to occur in the right place, which is not necessarily your temple.  There's at least a couple different categories:

1) there's a way to start the quest from the God's Home.  Orlanth's home, Storm Home aka Karulinoran, has doors to the different mythic ages, as well as to the Sky Dome and the Underworld.  You have to fly there, though, so your Flight Rune spell is needed.  Ernalda's Loom House, on the other hand, is accessible down the Earth stairs which appear within the Earth temple/shrine during the worship ceremony.  You just need to walk down, and then can exit to some of the mythic ages, or to the passage she took to the Underworld when she went to Sleep.

2) the quest must start from a noted mundane location.  The Six Stones is such a place in Lismelder lands and a Humakti ritual opens the way to the Underworld.  IIRC, the LBQ starts from the Hill of Orlanth Victorious.  There are plenty of others.  These places are sacred and sanctified by the cult.  (And of course may be defiled or occupied by an enemy.)  I would generally use a Worship ritual for this, though the Six Stones ritual is a very specific case for Humakt.  You can treat these as special Rune spell rituals if you like.

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Does your Glorantha have involuntary heroquesting? In which case, how does it happen? Is it automatic (gamemaster fiat/railroading), or is there more to it?

Yes.  There's usually some trigger that leads them over the Threshold.  A couple examples:

1) Entering the Colymar Wilds.  In my games, this is a magical threshold and puts you into the domain of Tarndisi / Lady of the Wild unless you've used the right objects and taken the right path to avoid accidentally triggering it.  In one campaign, the heroes crossed it to escape a Lunar unit that was trying to capture them.  The Lunars followed, but both groups were now in an involuntary quest of Hunter and Hunted.

2) The Dark Trails.  Trolls know some of these.  Sometimes an adventurer learns of one or more of these.  Most are magical roads.  But there are Threshold crossings along some.  One leads to the stairs to the Tower of the Empress of the Night. 

3) The Howling Tower in SKoH.  This pit opens to the Underworld.  The Hell Crack in Pent is a similar, though much larger threshold.

4) The Puzzle Canal in Pavis during Sacred Time.  Also opens to the Underworld.

I've not had many situations where the players have been pulled into someone else's quest, yet.  I feel that this happens more likely where the adventurers start off on their own voluntary quest, but it intersects another, and instead of staying true to their path, they end up on the other.

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

What kind of resources do you need to start the heroquest in your Glorantha? Can you trigger the heroquest on your own with two sticks and a piece of rope? Does a clan festival, a cult temple, some regalia, the right time of year, and other such things simply increase your odds of succeeding, or are they absolutely required?

Generally you need sacred objects.  As with any Worship ritual, the right place/time provide bonuses.  Sacred objects provide bonuses.  The right sacrifices provide bonuses.  Taking on known roles (and wearing the right masks) within the quest provide bonuses. 

I follow an HQG style with this in that the level of success of individual Worship rolls determines whether you get "carryover" bonuses to particular stages or stations of your quest.  So you want as many upfront bonuses as possible to stack your chance of having the right aid at critical points.  Some may absolutely be required, some increase your odds at the right points.

[Ali the Helering]

all as per Jajagappa, and on one occasion a Yelmite chariot blessed with an obscene number of points of Lokarnan 'Hie Wagon', accelerating it to a yellow blur.

[Alex]

45 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

And for this thread I specifically want to talk about so-called "Hero-plane" and "Other-world" heroquests, i.e. when you actually leave the mundane world.

Noted!  But as I understand it, these are much less common, being either extremely deep or "high level" -- at this point you don't have a god complex, god has a you-complex -- or are the 'magic road' type, where your plan is to do an Nighcrawler in-and-out of the HP.

45 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

How do you trigger the heroquest voluntarily? I've seen it done with either a Rune Spell or Spirit Magic Spell that lets you "go through the threshold". I've seen it done with a simple Rune affinity roll at "some opportune time". I've seen it done basically automatically given "some" appropriate situation (whatever that is). What do you use in your game?

I think the fundamental technique is to journey in the appropriate direction.  If you're not physically journeying to the uttermost west to talk to a Daughter of Yelm that's really ticked off with you, are you really Westfaring hard enough yet?  Now, are there intermediate form between that and a 'practice'  SLBQ?  I imagine so.  Perhaps something that combines different elements of a magic road, a 'mundane' quest, and the deepest sort.

45 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Does your Glorantha have involuntary heroquesting? In which case, how does it happen? Is it automatic (gamemaster fiat/railroading), or is there more to it? Do your players have to be careful when they cast too much Rune Magic or when they quote a popular folk song about Orlanth while waving a shield?

Yes.  The highest danger is when you're in the Otherworld on "other business", and it turns into a heroquest by way of an accidental intersection with someone else's heroquest -- or indeed a deliberate such ambush.  Or I suppose, higher yet if you're on a different heroquest, and get drawn into an unplanned on in that way.  I that's all, if not Gospel, then Sayings of the Prophet.

Extrapolating, the "deeper" you get into heroquesting, the bigger the risk gets, so pretty much as you describe.  Anything that would work as an 'indentification challenge', essentially.

45 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

What kind of resources do you need to start the heroquest in your Glorantha? Can you trigger the heroquest on your own with two sticks and a piece of rope? Does a clan festival, a cult temple, some regalia, the right time of year, and other such things simply increase your odds of succeeding, or are they absolutely required?

For me, all of those things are quantitative...  but enough quantity has a quality all of its own!  Basically the initial 'target number' (translate to preferred system as desired) is huge, and you get big bonuses from each of those.  Also number of participants, duration, and another other magic resource you can throw at it.  But it seems that none of them can be in principle essential, otherwise we'll have to end up explaining too many exceptions, past and future.  If you have just two sticks and a piece of rope, I think you'll need a whole lot of 'your own'.  Maybe about three to six masteries of Skip Rope, say?

[Dissolv]

1.  Each Heroquest requires special preparation and ceremony to enter voluntarily.  Someone has to know the way, items, animals, and persons of symbolic importance must be gathered, and a ritual must be learned. 

This plays out a lot like the investigation for a Call of Cthuluthu adventure in my Glorantha, although campaign long call backs (and foreshadowing to this moment) are very important.  That troll you befriended last Dark Season?  Now is the time to call in that favor so he can teach you the secret path of darkness.  You rescued the daughter of the Clan Chieftain?  Now is the time to use that influence that you gained to orate the Chief into committing the clan magics during Sacred time to help you breach the barriers.  This can be quite long for new Heroquesters, with many MacGuffins to track down, secrets to learn, and wise elders to persuade. 

It helps have the players see this done from the Initiate point of view, as they help out a Rune Priest try to get things together for his heroquest.  This is kind of an important education for the players.  The Priest acts as a quest giver for the current adventure, the players get to see him actively organize the needed elements for a Heroquest, which they can mimic later, and they may even learn their tribe's sacred magic this way too.  When they become Rune level, the roles reverse, and now they are the ones trying to get the elements all together, or even enhance or modify the ritual. 

 

2.  YES!  A couple of ways this can happen.  The players may wind up in a spot, being captured by enemies.  Rather than ransom, they can play out the part as enemies in a Heroquest not of their liking!  The players may also blunder into the other side from a place where the barrier is weak.  Magical places, particularly at times of great holy significance might trigger this in a number of ways (the thief can't resist touching the statue, the earth opens up and swallows the players, strange winged beings scoop the players up, the forest takes unexpected twists and turns, the storm blows the players off course, and so on).   The players may not even realize that they have left the mundane world -- indeed in Glorantha not a whole lot is mundane in the first place.  Are you in Beast Valley, in a land you have never seen before, or you have crossed over to somewhere entirely different?  How can you tell, unless you were an experienced quester?

Finally, I run a lot of "this world" Heroquests.  Epic adventures to unknown lands are a staple, and if the players journeyed across the Wastes to visit Kralorela, I would run that as an epic mini-campaign, and also treat it as a Heroquest.  Sometimes players get chased or maneuvered into these types of things, like the Issaries who has to return the hyena skin.  Or heck, the Lunars might capture them and sentence them to the Risklands in Dorastor.   At the end the players would likely gain something like free stats or Rune points or such as the result of their trials and heroism, very similar to an Otherworld Heroquest.

 

3.  As stated above, even a party of Rune levels can't do it on their own.  There will need quite a lot of preparation and support from NPCs, his clan, and maybe even his whole tribe.  In the Eleven Lights campaign, the final epic Heroquest was set up by the players finally bringing peace to the North, and earning enough reputation, doing enough favors, and knowing the right people, that they were able to access the resources of two tribes. 

As the Hero Wars carry on, and the players grow in power, it should be more common for non-Lunars to Heroquest, and the many requirements may already be met and not require 4-5 play sessions to get ready for them.  However I would never cheapen them too much, unless your players are rolling around with demi-gods, and even then the Heroquest ought to be thing that is most likely to kill them dead, or deal them permanent wounds.

Besides the artifacts, and rituals, and such, the way I play it is that it takes a certain amount of raw magical power to pierce the barriers.   Normally this is what the clan(s) are doing, just providing a large amount of magic points to power the ceremony.  At specific times and places though, it should take less power to punch through than it would sitting comfortably in your Tula at Sacred time.  There should always be these secret places in the world, that the players might find, or be taught about, where they might go beyond what the clan can do, and forge their own way.  But this should be exceptionally dangerous, and these secret places should be just that....secret.   Typically these are providence of wise men, fools, or the Elder Races.  You may need to contact the dead and persuade them.  Or you might even go on a Heroquest......just to learn how to do the Heroquest that you are really yearning to do. 

[Joerg]

9 hours ago, lordabdul said:

What kind of resources do you need to start the heroquest in your Glorantha? Can you trigger the heroquest on your own with two sticks and a piece of rope? Does a clan festival, a cult temple, some regalia, the right time of year, and other such things simply increase your odds of succeeding, or are they absolutely required?

Support and magical favors, as augments and bargaining chips for obstacles on your quest. The supporters weigh in with their magic, in extreme cases sending a wyter along. They may be rewarded by the outcome of the quest, and by how their support affects and altered the course on the hero plane, or they may get punished in case of a failure, or loss. Sometimes such a thing is quantifiable or the questers may go prepared for a certain stage, but heroquest surprise may turn such an encounter topsy turvey.

[Shiningbrow]

Q: mechanically, how do your players know a certain HQ? Cult Lore? Rune Spell? Other?

[Alex]

24 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Q: mechanically, how do your players know a certain HQ? Cult Lore? Rune Spell? Other?

YmechanicsMV, but I think it's definitely in the realm of 'lore', rather than of 'divine magic'.  Essentially what you're doing is:-

• Go to other side;
• Perform perform actions in a ritualised -- but also necessarily extemporised -- manner.

The first part is essentially the same as or very similar to a worship ceremony.  So it's the same skill -- or a very similar one, maybe in combo with Cult Lore and you suggest.  Again, the idea that gaining and regaining rune magic is contiguous with heroquesting as a procedure is useful here -- it's like a HQ, only you don't need to be a Hero, there's no Questing involved, but you go to the other side, and perform the actions of the corresponding myth -- but in as safe, controlled, and predictable manner as possible, because the result is so well-defined.

The second part is once more knowledge-driven, as you need to know the correct actions to perform in a given situation, and the inevitable variations on it.  Plus whatever is then involved in the resolution of each stage.

[Alex]

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

There's usually some trigger that leads them over the Threshold.  A couple examples:

1) Entering the Colymar Wilds. [+ other 'places' examples]

This is a good point.  There are locations that are naturally favourable to Other Side rituals -- Thin Places, as it were, where the distance to some portion of the otherworld is shorter, the barriers lower.  This is great if you're doing a worship ritual there.  Boni all 'round!  But conversely you might find yourself crossing over there unintentionally, especially if there are other affine factors:  strong runic or cultist associations with the place, having encountered or crossed the corresponding myth in the heroplane before, etc.

[Eff]

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Q: mechanically, how do your players know a certain HQ? Cult Lore? Rune Spell? Other?

How I would run it: Cult Lore, for myths your character would reasonably know or have been prepared for. Then, for unusual myths they've stumbled into, they can use Devotion passions or appropriate Runes to get an inspirational "What Would Ernalda Do?" (for example) thought. All else failing, POW×3/4/5 for lucky guesses or INT×3/4/5 for memories of mythical events like this you've heard of. 

And I would probably run these more as a contest between "I, the GM say" and "you, the player say," with success and failure being a mixed result- on failure the player says something first, then I respond, etc. and these define what the information they're searching for is. 

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Eff said:

How I would run it: Cult Lore, for myths your character would reasonably know or have been prepared for. Then, for unusual myths they've stumbled into, they can use Devotion passions or appropriate Runes to get an inspirational "What Would Ernalda Do?" (for example) thought. All else failing, POW×3/4/5 for lucky guesses or INT×3/4/5 for memories of mythical events like this you've heard of. 

Also active research - sometimes my players have travelled to visit a temple and look for a suitable myth. Once you have the myth, you can HeroQuest it.

[Joerg]

Know the story - you can roll lores for that, you can consult people in the know, your players can make up the story they know (and the GM will run with a lot of those ideas, and contradict them in significant places).

Have the ritual held for you by the community that boosts you across the barrier. Can be done with hired helpers (priests etc.).

For the ritual, a worship roll would be a good approximation, and to determine support, another such roll for each instance of support.

If you don't have the ritual held for you, find an auspicious transition location and time and do the ritual preparation and attempt the crossing. You might end up slightly or strongly dislocated, but once you have crossed, you'll be able to make out landmarks and go on your way.

[Nick Brooke]

Is it something they need to know in order to enjoy the scenario I'm running? Then they already know it, or they meet someone who can teach it to them, or they find a written record / temple frieze / statue / crime scene that shows them what they need to do, or the player who makes the best die roll vs. a relevant skill (Cult Lore, Worship, Devotion, an appropriate Rune, etc.) gets given the answer on a plate. Don't ever make players succeed in a skill roll just to make progress in a scenario. Don't ever give players duff info that will crash your game, unless you're prepared to deal with the mess you've created. (But see the corollary below)

But in my opinion adventurers shouldn't go into heroquests with perfect knowledge of what's going to happen. If they think they know, that's great -- you can screw around with their expectations, pull the rug out from under them when they least expect it, gate-crash the party and take no prisoners, etc. (Always give players duff info to bring more fun to your game, even if they've rolled nothing bad: that's why they come to the table, after all)

I find the rehearsed and researched "safe" model of heroquesting intensely dull, and don't spend any time humouring it in my games. Several examples of what ends up happening are in Black Spear, coming soon to the Jonstown Compendium.

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Don't ever make players succeed in a skill roll just to make progress in a scenario. Don't ever give players duff info that will crash your game, unless you're prepared to deal with the mess you've created.

Agree.  Unless there's a particular reason to crash the party (e.g. your major villain wreaks havoc upon them; the Empire Strikes Back; etc.), get them into the quest!

Even if they need to pass Humakt to get into the Underworld, have someone "die" symbolically (Yinkin loses one of his lives, Ernalda sleeps her way past) or if they do insist on the fight and are killed by Death, then they carry on as their ghostly self (good Flesh Man motif there).

3 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

If they think they know, that's great -- you can screw around with their expectations, pull the rug out from under them when they least expect it, gate-crash the party and take no prisoners, etc.

And if they haven't spent time getting to the point where they think they know the story, then they'll be sure to encounter some delightful surprises (and real-world consequences)!

[Runeblogger]

21 hours ago, jajagappa said:

In one campaign, the heroes crossed it to escape a Lunar unit that was trying to capture them.  The Lunars followed, but both groups were now in an involuntary quest of Hunter and Hunted.

What is that Hunter and Hunted quest like? An Odaylan myth? And how did it differ in you campaign from the Lunars just normally chasing the adventurers?

Quote

2) The Dark Trails.  Trolls know some of these.  Sometimes an adventurer learns of one or more of these.  Most are magical roads.  But there are Threshold crossings along some.  One leads to the stairs to the Tower of the Empress of the Night. 

So what would trigger a Dark Trail? Just a dark trail in the woods could actually lead you to one of those?

 

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

What is that Hunter and Hunted quest like? An Odaylan myth? And how did it differ in you campaign from the Lunars just normally chasing the adventurers?

I mashed together:  the Orlanth myth chasing the Lady of the Wilds (the Five Majestic Beasts), the Fangplace myth from 13G, and Yinkin chased by the Bad Dogs.

The heroes were effectively seeking the Way Home.  To do so, they had to pursue and overcome the Five Majestic Beasts.  At the same time, they were hunted by Hell Hounds (the Lunars transformed within the quest into the Hunters of the Hunters).  The quest led to the Fangplace where the final confrontation with the Bad Dogs/Hell Hounds/Lunars occurred. 

2 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

So what would trigger a Dark Trail? Just a dark trail in the woods could actually lead you to one of those?

They are effectively Magic Roads that dip in and out of the mundane world.  So, yes, a dark trail in the woods might lead into one.

They might be leftovers of pathways taken by the Troll Gods during the God Time.  They might be places that Argan Argar or his worshipers carved out by manipulating the shadows.  They might be trails drawn by Xentha as she passes through by Night.  They might be strands of Aranea's/Arachne Solara's webs.

The idea came out of an ability taken by one of my HQG players for his character:  "Know the Dark Trails".  I've elaborated on since.

And IMO some of them are clearly shown on this map - for example, the Tarpit Trail, which passes right through the hostile territory of the Volsaxings near Whitewall, must be one of the Dark Trails and allows troll caravans to practically sneak through the land between (not without other dangers of course!).

 

[Shiningbrow]

14 hours ago, Eff said:

How I would run it: Cult Lore, for myths your character would reasonably know or have been prepared for. Then, for unusual myths they've stumbled into, they can use Devotion passions or appropriate Runes to get an inspirational "What Would Ernalda Do?" (for example) thought. All else failing, POW×3/4/5 for lucky guesses or INT×3/4/5 for memories of mythical events like this you've heard of. 

And I would probably run these more as a contest between "I, the GM say" and "you, the player say," with success and failure being a mixed result- on failure the player says something first, then I respond, etc. and these define what the information they're searching for is. 

You're largely thinking as I would (although, not sure about the INT roll... Not without some basis for it).

But separating rolls, I think, is important. It's one thing to know the myths (Cult Lore), and a completely different thing to re-enact them such that you get a magical effect.

 

I still like the Rune Spell for HQs that's been proposed (@soltakss), partly for other purposes... But also for this.

[Shiningbrow]

10 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

I find the rehearsed and researched "safe" model of heroquesting intensely dull, and don't spend any time humouring it in my games

No such thing as a "safe" Heroquest...

And, it takes the Hero out of it.

[Alex]

43 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

No such thing as a "safe" Heroquest...

If it were safe, it's be rune magic, or on a Big Table of Gifts/Geases, etc.

Edited October 2, 2021 by Alex

[Alex]

11 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Is it something they need to know in order to enjoy the scenario I'm running? Then they already know it, or they meet someone who can teach it to them, or they find a written record / temple frieze / statue / crime scene that shows them what they need to do, or the player who makes the best die roll vs. a relevant skill (Cult Lore, Worship, Devotion, an appropriate Rune, etc.) gets given the answer on a plate. Don't ever make players succeed in a skill roll just to make progress in a scenario. Don't ever give players duff info that will crash your game, unless you're prepared to deal with the mess you've created.

I agree you don't simply want to stonewall the players, and very especially not at the first hurdle.  No fun them not even being able to get themselves into trouble in the first place.  And clearly there are considerations about how to stage the evening's entertainments and torments, as you suggest.  Ideally, have a backup plan, or a plan to deal with a situation you probably can't really plan for.

However, with heroquests you have more flexibility with how to use the material than just "junk the scenario" if the players and their rolls conspire relentlessly at either actual success or even token failing forward.  They can also be done in walking the-coastline-weekend-at-a-time mode -- either deliberately, serendipitously, or at the most inconvenient time possible.  Doing the stages...  in stages, as it were.  If they get "stuck" at a particular point, they may keep getting drawn back to it.  Most obviously at the next Sacred Time or other point they self-consciously enter the heroplane, but potentially any time they interact with whatever themes relate to that quest, and to that point in it.  (I'm thinking here mostly of Practice/Mundane quests, with all apologies to the OP, but it potentially applies to both.)  If you don't interact with mythology it'll interact with you, getting hit over the head by your mythic opponents "at random" edition.

 

11 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

But in my opinion adventurers shouldn't go into heroquests with perfect knowledge of what's going to happen.

Indeed.  Stop, Sunstop danger!

 

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, Alex said:

I agree you don't simply want to stonewall the players, and very especially not at the first hurdle.  No fun them not even being able to get themselves into trouble in the first place.

One of the first signs that the Hero Wars RPG was (ahem) "poorly thought-through in some aspects" (shall we say?) was when it included rules for heroquesting that made it basically impossible to get any heroquest off the ground. What were they thinking? That's among the many reasons I don't raid that game for mechanical ideas.

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, Alex said:

I agree you don't simply want to stonewall the players, and very especially not at the first hurdle.  No fun them not even being able to get themselves into trouble in the first place.  And clearly there are considerations about how to stage the evening's entertainments and torments, as you suggest.  Ideally, have a backup plan, or a plan to deal with a situation you probably can't really plan for.

However, with heroquests you have more flexibility with how to use the material than just "junk the scenario" if the players and their rolls conspire relentlessly at either actual success or even token failing forward.  They can also be done in walking the-coastline-weekend-at-a-time mode -- either deliberately, serendipitously, or at the most inconvenient time possible.  Doing the stages...  in stages, as it were.  If they get "stuck" at a particular point, they may keep getting drawn back to it.  Most obviously at the next Sacred Time or other point they self-consciously enter the heroplane, but potentially any time they interact with whatever themes relate to that quest, and to that point in it.  (I'm thinking here mostly of Practice/Mundane quests, with all apologies to the OP, but it potentially applies to both.)  If you don't interact with mythology it'll interact with you, getting hit over the head by your mythic opponents "at random" edition.

IIRC, Mongoose had rules for getting it wrong... you drop out of the HQ. (or, possibly, drawn into something you didn't anticipate).

Neither are terrible options, and would encourage the players to try again... after a bit more research.

[Alex]

On 10/2/2021 at 7:14 AM, Nick Brooke said:

One of the first signs that the Hero Wars RPG was (ahem) "poorly thought-through in some aspects" (shall we say?) was when it included rules for heroquesting that made it basically impossible to get any heroquest off the ground. What were they thinking? That's among the many reasons I don't raid that game for mechanical ideas.

My main reason is that I don't think I've seen my copy (either of them, I think I have two?) for about a decade, so I'd have to find them first, and no doubt eliminate a hazardous amount of dust...  So with the huge caveat that I might be misremembering wildly, as I recall the starter-motor issues there were...

Firstly, that they were couching things in terms of the intended difficulty of "full" Otherworld quests.  So if that takes a whole clan, the associated magical regalia, on a holy site, on a propitious day and time, preparation, duration, as well and multiple high-ability celebrants and questers, or reasonable equivalents, that sounds about sensible.

Secondly, anything magic-resistance-related in HW ended up being a huge last-minute bodge job, where what back in those more innocent days we called a "narrativist" core set of rules had some very old-school thinking "simulationist" numbers grafted far-from-seamlessly onto it.  While a couple of Chaosium have a track record of a philosophy of, "don't bother with a number unless it's a big one", suddenly we're getting out of bed unless there were three Masteries involved.

So if those two things ever actually met at any point, I suspect it was more blind luck and stopped clocks...