Celestionomy, why in heaven?

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

What does it do for ordinary people? Does it do anything for anyone, except keep a few more Buserians in jobs? 

Is it like Astrology in real life but true? If not why is so much effort put into it? 

Who has access to the information, can anyone go see a Star Seer? 

[metcalph]

Starseers are the Dara Happans equivalent of wizards.  They don't do much for the yokels but are extremely useful for the rulers. 

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

What does it do for ordinary people? Does it do anything for anyone, except keep a few more Buserians in jobs? 

What would you like it to do for ordinary people?  If you consider how the days/weeks/seasons can give bonuses to magical skills (e.g. Worship upon the right day), then you want to know whether particular celestial events may also aid or hinder your efforts.  For the most part we simply ignore it as you could spend all your time trying to determine where Lightfore is on his nightly path through the Sky, or whether Shargash is about to fight Orlanth, or whether Orlanth has been bound by the Red Goddess.

I expect most Rune Priests of most cults will keep some eye on this - it is one method to assess the Divine Omens.  So, yes, it does more than just keep the Buserian and Irrippi Ontor scholars busy.

I use events in the Sky periodically in my games, and sometimes as omens or portends of upcoming or ongoing events.

5 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Who has access to the information, can anyone go see a Star Seer? 

The Star Seers are the experts in this, and rightly so since they need an understanding of the events in the Heavens in relation to their ability to potentially draw upon its powers. 

But, I'd have Rune priests of larger temples employ either their own initiates (yes, you've been sent once again out to the hilltop to watch the stars for the signs in the Heavens) or experienced sages (could be LM, Buserian, Irrippi Ontor, or other) to gather and report the information.  It may well impact what they do during certain Holy Days, or what they need to guard against. 

I've had Sky demons fall from the Heavens to interrupt important worship services in my games, as an example where this comes into play.

[Godlearner]

Quote

Celestionomy

I just feel that it is something that every Gloranthan must get once they turn a certain age, and then check it at least once a year.

[Alex]

10 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

What does it do for ordinary people? Does it do anything for anyone, except keep a few more Buserians in jobs? 

You say that like it's a small consideration.  The key rite for sages everywhere:  TenureQuest!

10 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Is it like Astrology in real life but true? If not why is so much effort put into it? 

The natural Glorantha-style answer to that would be "yes".  (Or out of passing regard to those that believe in RL astrology or other sorts of magic, "like real life, but in a clear-cut objectively verifiable way".)

One slight niggle with that is that the Gloranthan sky is a little too predictable, compared to the terrestrial one.  Stuff exactly repeats every day or every year;  some things (like eclipses, oddly) don't happen at all.  One doesn't really need to invent whole new disciplines of mathematics and huge cadres of highly trained full-time to deal with most of that.  I think there's a few possible saves for that:

• The published celestrial periods have some 'rounding errors', and things are a bit more complex than first appears, but still materially determinable;
• The Southpath does all the heavy lifting;  everything else is easy to predict, but where Shargash will be rampaging next?  Experts needed;
• In theory it's all pretty simple, but then... magic happens.  Variations from the predictable occur often enough that they're an important consideration, and you need not so much maths as a ton of mystical meditation and enough rune magic and sorcery to incinerate a hecatomb of oxen.  Which doesn't mean that it has to be very common;  a Dragonrise every century or so will concentrate minds enormously.

10 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Who has access to the information, can anyone go see a Star Seer? 

There's likely a hierarchy.  As with everything Solar!  If you're the Emperor, you'll have at your personal service to redundant banks of people permanently walled up in Star Towers.  You may not wish that information to be made generally freely available, either.  If you're a poor peasant, the village wise woman may have a few prize nuggets of Sky lore.  And any and every point in between.

[Akhôrahil]

Celestial Lore can be used to:

• Tell the time of day and night
• Assist in navigation
• Give crucial information for Sky-based rituals, such as both the opening of the Temple of the Reaching Moon and Starbrow's assault on it
• Assist in divination
• Know about stuff that fall from the sky
• Know about and navigate the Sky World

Not anything the average farmer will have much use for, but also not nothing.

[French Desperate WindChild]

27 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Celestial Lore can be used to:

• Tell the time of day and night
• Assist in navigation
• Give crucial information for Sky-based rituals, such as both the opening of the Temple of the Reaching Moon and Starbrow's assault on it
• Assist in divination
• Know about stuff that fall from the sky
• Know about and navigate the Sky World

Not anything the average farmer will have much use for, but also not nothing.

add "assist in poetry" and "assist in seduction" and I follow you !

[Akhôrahil]

19 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

add "assist in poetry" and "assist in seduction" and I follow you !

"Your eyes are like the Twin Stars..."

[French Desperate WindChild]

13 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

"Your eyes are like the Twin Stars..."

🥰

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Celestial Lore can be used to:

• Tell the time of day and night
• Assist in navigation
• Give crucial information for Sky-based rituals, such as both the opening of the Temple of the Reaching Moon and Starbrow's assault on it
• Assist in divination
• Know about stuff that fall from the sky
• Know about and navigate the Sky World

Not anything the average farmer will have much use for, but also not nothing.

How does it assist in divination? 

I'm not really expecting an answer from you on this, it's a weird question and a bit niche, after all for the major culture RQ deals with, the sky is a enemy. 

As Alex puts it so well, it's very regular. 

Dates and times would be written down and once done it's done. 

 

People keep saying it's very useful but are vague on specifics. Pages and pages written on it and no actual concrete uses. 

The Star Seers Are a long way from the sea, navigation seems a bit redundant. 

I can see why it has been written about, but its in game uses seem marginal. 

[Akhôrahil]

7 minutes ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

How does it assist in divination? 

It might or it might not, but if you divine from celestial phenomona, I would certainly allow you to augment your casting of a Diviniation spell with your Celestial Lore (and maybe even get better information that way). Less useful if you work with intestines or scapulas.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Eff]

35 minutes ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

How does it assist in divination? 

I'm not really expecting an answer from you on this, it's a weird question and a bit niche, after all for the major culture RQ deals with, the sky is a enemy. 

As Alex puts it so well, it's very regular. 

Dates and times would be written down and once done it's done. 

 

People keep saying it's very useful but are vague on specifics. Pages and pages written on it and no actual concrete uses. 

The Star Seers Are a long way from the sea, navigation seems a bit redundant. 

I can see why it has been written about, but its in game uses seem marginal. 

Perhaps Celestial Lore is a rough estimate of how much you've memorized the charts and almanacs (as the overall cycle is at least 180 years), or perhaps the sky is less predictable than that, beyond the Jugger, the Lost Rocks, and the Blue Moon. It might even be the case that the sidereal year and solar year don't match up perfectly, and perhaps "chase" each other around equilibrium from year to year, and give Lunar Chronomancers something to do when they're not Chronoporting. 

All of which is to say, I would use Celestial Lore to test whether a convenient ritual atmosphere is available, or if it'll be inconvenient. Or for augmenting, if my players insisted. 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

As Alex puts it so well, it's very regular. 

Dates and times would be written down and once done it's done. 

It is... except when it isn't. 

As the Guide notes p.644, "The length of the night creates many subtle differences in summer and winter celestiology. For example, Lightfore’s movement across the Celestial Desert is long and grueling compared with the time spent swimming in the River."

There's those troublesome Southpath planets for instance - not just Shargash, but also Artia and the Twin Stars.  And their path is varied: "This is a highly erratic pathway across the sky. The area from which the Southpath planets rise is called the Eastern Mouth, while the western area where they set is called the Dodging Gate."  That Eastern Mouth could occur anywhere along a broad arc in the east, and where they set is called the Dodging Gate because it moves.

There are the Jugger and Lost Rocks, which are highly irregular.

The path of Lightfore always crosses over the Pole Star, and so it travels north and south of the center of the sky throughout the course of the year.  Whether this is entirely predictable is unclear - it may require adjusting when it encounters other phenomena.  E.g. the Celestial Desert - planets passing through this region are in dangerous territory because of the ghosts of those stars. 

Consider Entekos: Entekos travels the Sunpath for slightly less than 31 days, disappears for the same, and then appears again in the east.  This is a long and therefore variable cycle through the skies that will encounter differing objects each season/year.

Consider Lokarnos:  In the current era, it takes 98 days and nights to travel east to west along the Sunpath, and then spends an equal amount of time in the Underworld.  This does not amount to a static cycle through the other celestial objects.  Thus the path of Lokarnos (or Issaries' mule if you prefer), will vary each season/year.

Or Mastakos: Although on no set path when it rose, since before the Dawn this blue body has been crossing the sky in eight hours along the Sunpath, then rising immediately in the east again.  But, the length of the day varies between summer and winter, so Mastakos will often rise twice in a night! 

1 hour ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

How does it assist in divination? 

I would allow it as an augment for:  Dance, Meditation, Worship (favorable omens), Divination spells, use of the Light or Truth Runes, Navigation/Shiphandling, Battle (favorable omens), and certainly for determining optimal times to begin and enact heroquests (and even gauging likely foes you may encounter, which if you've prepared correctly you would get augments for/against).

[jajagappa]

And on top of the above, in 1624 the Boat Planet rises!  What does that do to all the nice Sky charts?

It's path is neither along the Sunpath nor the Southpath, but it travels the Celestial River on its own cycle (which the Sky Seers are just now trying to figure out).

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

And on top of the above, in 1624 the Boat Planet rises! 

And with Celestial Lore, you might remember that it disappeared as part of Closing, and now that it’s back…

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

And with Celestial Lore, you might remember that it disappeared as part of Closing, and now that it’s back…

You can come up with all sorts of rumors and fears about what it all means... 😉

[metcalph]

I think the Starseers have a number of different roles.

OMENS:  They announce regularly which runes are ascendant in the city and which runes are descendent.  They will usually give the planetary names but locals should be able to work it out.  The omens will differ from city to city because the cities were founded at different times (so to stop people trying to game the system with lattitudes etc)

RECITRIFICATION:  The Starseers know that the humans worship many hundreds of gods but that there are really only ten great gods (planets) and thirty lesser ones (constellations).  By identifying the gods according to their supposed planetary origins, the starseers can confer upon the worshippers of friendly deities (ie those worshipped by their city) access to magic from foreign deities or curse worshippers of enemy deities with weaker magic within signt of their city.

MANIFESTING COSMIC ENERGIES:  If suffering a prolonged run of bad luck or a foreign curse, the starseers can attemtpt o summon magic from the heavens to counteract it.  For example, to halt a drought, they might try to spill water from the celestial river or to halt a fleed they might perform rituals to bind the self-same river.

 

 

 

[Darius West]

17 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

How does it assist in divination? 

If you want a "cheap and nasty" fix to this question, consider the following option, which is something I do when someone has a skill that would be immensely helpful in "buffing" another skill in a given situation...

In the case of Divination, the base chance for a correct reading is casters POWx5.  To use Celestial Lore in this situation, treat it as a passion roll that will buff the base chance, but make this a cult secret known only to Buserian worshippers.  This makes Buserian worshippers pretty amazing at divination, which seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Darius West

[Shiningbrow]

On 2/1/2022 at 1:13 AM, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Dates and times would be written down and once done it's done.  

People keep saying it's very useful but are vague on specifics. Pages and pages written on it and no actual concrete uses. 

And therein is the issue... you're forgetting that most people are illiterate. And also, most people don't live in areas of great civilisation where this knowledge is commonly well-known, and everyone is educated.

Thus, for the average farmer, who does their work during the day, and at night has minimal light and entertainment, the one thing they know will be the stars. They'll know that when Yelm is rising at X point, then it will mean Y season is starting/ending,and they'll have to start preparing/doing Z actions (eg, prepare the seeds, reeping, sowing, seeding, and other farm stuff that I know very little about ;p)

Remember that RQ is based heavily on Earth mythology & religion, and those religions all around the planet built edifices marking important days - from Stonehenge (and its forebear, Woodhenge), to the alignments of pyramids all across the planet, to things like Avesbury and other stone circles.

And thus, it will help to tell you when your god's holy day is approaching.

Although there aren't any Lunar Eclipses, there will be other star and planetary eclipses - and those, no doubt, will signal specific holy days and therefore the rites and rituals associated with them (ie, good omens... therefore, divination).

(and, compare all of that knowledge to the 'education' that we have today! I'd bet that less than 1% of our highly educated masses can tell you what the location of even the Sun's rising and setting means with regards to the seasons - let alone be able to point to the horizon for where they occur).

 

 

(Fun fact - I teach ESL at a university in China. I asked my students when the Chinese Spring Festival/New Year is (handy hint - it's based on the Lunar Cycle - and thus changes every year). Out of about 125 students, only 1 could tell me (almost) how it's calculated.... FYI - 2nd New Moon after the Winter Solstice - which, sort of coincidentally, was yesterday 😁)

[Shiningbrow]

20 hours ago, Darius West said:

In the case of Divination, the base chance for a correct reading is casters POWx5.  To use Celestial Lore in this situation, treat it as a passion roll that will buff the base chance, but make this a cult secret known only to Buserian worshippers.  This makes Buserian worshippers pretty amazing at divination, which seems perfectly reasonable to me.

I think that's a bit harsh. While Buserian is surely the premier cult for Celestial Lore up in the Lunar Empire, I think it would be ridiculous to think that they're they only ones who have ever looked up at the sky and made predictions based on previous positions and events. As per my post above, Star Lore is another thing that was recorded and studied across the world throughout the ages - the same would be said for Glorantha too. (as well as - what's a good omen for the Lunars would be a bad omen for their enemies).

So, certainly cult secrets, but available to select cults across the lozenge.

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Remember that RQ is based heavily on Earth mythology & religion, and those religions all around the planet built edifices marking important days - from Stonehenge (and its forebear, Woodhenge), to the alignments of pyramids all across the planet, to things like Avesbury and other stone circles.

And thus, it will help to tell you when your god's holy day is approaching.

The Henges and the entrance window of Newgrange and similar structures require the axial tilt of our planet and a rather low angle of the sun above the horizon to provide this information.

None of these calendar temples work well in Glorantha with its equatorial sunpath more or less directly overhead. Neither north nor south are associated with noon, the seasonal tilt is a lot less than what you need to feel the sun does not go directly overhead. Sunrise and sunset is always due east and due west, regardless of the season.

And even worse, there is no solar motion except slightly up when Oslira arrives at the Footstool in the whole of the Golden Age. Or at least that's what the Monomyth claims.

The stars and their dance started only after Umath ascended towards Yelm, rather late in the Golden Age, at least according to the Copper Tablets and their story (corroborated in Heortling Mythology)..

 

So what remains is a slight precession in the rotation of the Sky Dome, either 295 or 293 revolutions in a year. (Which is it?)

There appears to be some bobbing upward and downward of  the Sunpath, and possibly  the sky dome as well. There is also the tilt inversion which happens on the solstices.

The Buseri tower cupolas have the tent/window frame to trace the rotation, tilt and precession of the Sky Dome and its stars.

Structures like the Wild Temple or the Thrice Blessed megaliths appear to be more processional than astronomical

[Shiningbrow]

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Henges and the entrance window of Newgrange and similar structures require the axial tilt of our planet and a rather low angle of the sun above the horizon to provide this information.

None of these calendar temples work well in Glorantha with its equatorial sunpath more or less directly overhead. Neither north nor south are associated with noon, the seasonal tilt is a lot less than what you need to feel the sun does not go directly overhead. Sunrise and sunset is always due east and due west, regardless of the season.

And even worse, there is no solar motion except slightly up when Oslira arrives at the Footstool in the whole of the Golden Age. Or at least that's what the Monomyth claims.

The stars and their dance started only after Umath ascended towards Yelm, rather late in the Golden Age, at least according to the Copper Tablets and their story (corroborated in Heortling Mythology)..

 

So what remains is a slight precession in the rotation of the Sky Dome, either 295 or 293 revolutions in a year. (Which is it?)

There appears to be some bobbing upward and downward of  the Sunpath, and possibly  the sky dome as well. There is also the tilt inversion which happens on the solstices.

The Buseri tower cupolas have the tent/window frame to trace the rotation, tilt and precession of the Sky Dome and its stars.

Structures like the Wild Temple or the Thrice Blessed megaliths appear to be more processional than astronomical

Ok... But, does the sky above indicate time in the lozenge in any way?

It does what happen up there have absolutely no relation to down there at the daily/weekly/seasonally level?

(I thought about mentioning Newgrange, and the lightbox for Venus... But figured it was too much detail)

[Joerg]

On 2/3/2022 at 4:54 AM, Shiningbrow said:

Ok... But, does the sky above indicate time in the lozenge in any way?

Sure. The daily rotation of the Sky Dome offers a different backdrop for the fixed objects and the planets on their paths. Lightfore is the nighttime sun, reliably up when the Sun disk is down. Mastakos/Uleria zooms across the Sunpath thrice a day, and in winter you may see it set up to three times.

 

On 2/3/2022 at 4:54 AM, Shiningbrow said:

It does what happen up there have absolutely no relation to down there at the daily/weekly/seasonally level?

The constellation in which Theya rises will vary throughout the seasons, and so will the constellation in which Rausa sets. At spring equinox, it will be the same constellation - Lorion, IIRC. At autumn equinox, the far side of the celestial river.

Does what happens up there influence the daily life down here? The Seasons are real, and so is the day-night cycle, and both contribute to the daily life and the annual rhythm of activities.

Superimposition of local geographic features with stars passing atop or behind them may be potent magical moments to perform rites or to start quests.

[Shiningbrow]

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Sure. The daily rotation of the Sky Dome offers a different backdrop for the fixed objects and the planets on their paths. Lightfore is the nighttime sun, reliably up when the Sun disk is down. Mastakos/Uleria zooms across the Sunpath thrice a day, and in winter you may see it set up to three times.

 

The constellation in which Theya rises will vary throughout the seasons, and so will the constellation in which Rausa sets. At spring equinox, it will be the same constellation - Lorion, IIRC. At autumn equinox, the far side of the celestial river.

Does what happens up there influence the daily life down here? The Seasons are real, and so is the day-night cycle, and both contribute to the daily life and the annual rhythm of activities.

Superimposition of local geographic features with stars passing atop or behind them may be potent magical moments to perform rites or to start quests.

Right.

So, that all just shows that what I wrote above is appropriate - poor farmers can look to the sky and know about times of the year, just as farmers did here on the blue marble. (which is probably why Celestial Lore starts at 5%, and not 00%.

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 1/31/2022 at 11:09 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

🥰

They come out at night...