Strangers in Prax?

[Ian A. Thomson]

Is the problem with reprinting Strangers in Prax one of time, and person-power? Or are there legal issues/copyrights etc?

I for one would be delighted to assist co-ordinate (or helm) a fan-created re-release of these three stories (well, the Coders and Arlaten) for no financial remuneration

And I can't imagine I'd be alone in offering that support

Possibly there is the chunky rules-conversion issue, but I'm pretty confident we'd find someone to do a good job of that too.

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Ian Thomson said:

Is the problem with reprinting Strangers in Prax one of time, and person-power?

I believe Rick has said that there are no text files available - these have to be OCR scanned and then verified.  Based on the RQ Classics, this was a time-consuming process.

[Kloster]

3 hours ago, Ian Thomson said:

Or are there legal issues/copyrights etc?

IIRC, Jeff or Rick explained that RQ3 IP is firmly in Chaosium's hands now.

[g33k]

3 hours ago, Ian Thomson said:

...

Possibly there is the chunky rules-conversion issue, but I'm pretty confident we'd find someone to do a good job of that too.

 

I'm unclear whether  Chaosium itself  is clear as to whether they'd rather issue straight-up reprints of RQ3 content (in the "Classics" vein), or update/convert the content to RQG rules & timeline.

If the later, Strangers looks especially problematic:  it's Lunars-in-Prax, but the RQG era sees the Lunar presence there shattered.

[jajagappa]

9 minutes ago, g33k said:

whether they'd rather issue straight-up reprints of RQ3 content (in the "Classics" vein), or update/convert the content to RQG rules & timeline.

That's the other challenge.  RQ2 is an easier integration into RQG than RQ3 so some amount of conversion notes would minimally be needed.

[Kloster]

33 minutes ago, Kloster said:

IIRC, Jeff or Rick explained that RQ3 IP is firmly in Chaosium's hands now.

Found it: It was MOB.

 

[David Scott]

Remember that Strangers in Prax is three separate adventures, so unless reprinted as is:

• The Lunar Coders, no interest for the RQG timeline as they've left Prax. (by Michael O'Brien)
• Barran the Monster Killer, a Magasta ships captain and ships crew loosely tied into the River of Cradles with a series of adventures (Jonathan Tweet)
• Arlaten the Magus, as A Western Wizard, would need a major rewrite for RQG (by Mike Dawson)

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/avalon-hill/strangers-in-prax/

 

Edited March 23, 2022 by David Scott
Added missing words!

[Rick Meints]

While it would be really cool if a number of RQ3 products could get back into print, they are not a priority of ours. We don't have the text files for most of them. We would have to scan them in, OCR them, clean up the art, and then thoroughly edit the text for OCR errors (and some original errors). Then the art and text have to get laid out again. Add it all up and it is rather time consuming. (I should know because I have done all of that for a number of RQ and CoC classic titles). We have to weigh doing all that against how well they will sell. Sadly, the RQ Classics don't sell as well as you would expect. Yes, the RQ2 rulebook sold very very well. The rest of the RQC line, not so much. 

Also, I should point out that most RQ3 titles can be purchased on eBay for somewhat reasonable prices, especially if you are patient.

All that being said, we did have some fans recreate the Gateway Bestiary for us for free. That was extremely generous (and unexpected) of them, and it is the only reason we now have it for sale as a POD title (and PDF) on Chaosium.com

[Bill the barbarian]

14 minutes ago, Rick Meints said:

While it would be really cool if a number of RQ3 products could get back into print, they are not a priority of ours.

Makes sense.

14 minutes ago, Rick Meints said:

We would have to scan them in, OCR them, clean up the art, and then thoroughly edit the text for OCR errors (and some original errors). Then the art and text have to get laid out again. Add it all up and it is rather time consuming.

Having just done this with Ian for his Rough Guide to Pavis, I can concur... and the eyestrain!

14 minutes ago, Rick Meints said:

All that being said, we did have some fans recreate the Gateway Bestiary for us for free. That was extremely generous (and unexpected) of them, and it is the only reason we now have it for sale as a POD title (and PDF) on Chaosium.com

Are you still into it, @Ian Thomson? It would be a blast for me!

Edited March 22, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[7Tigers]

Idem, I can help provide raw (but verified) text for RQ3 books.

[Soccercalle]

I would very much prefer to have Jeff and Jason work with new stuff like the Cults Book, Sartar book, GM Book etc than spending time on old products. I own Strangers in Prax and plan to play the first two first adventures in a campaign set in 1620-21. The third part needs new Sorcery rules.

[svensson]

I would LOVE to see the Lunar Coders translated into RQG and their backstories updated. Same with Barran the Monster Hunter.

But Arlaten the Magus [and for that matter the Coder Maculus the Monitor] are going to require rebuilds from the ground up. As far as I can see, the new Sorcery system is completely different from the RQ3 version. And given how much all three major groups in Strangers depends on Sorcery for their builds, that's gonna take some work.

[svensson]

4 minutes ago, Soccercalle said:

I would very much prefer to have Jeff and Jason work with new stuff like the Cults Book, Sartar book, GM Book etc than spending time on old products. I own Strangers in Prax and plan to play the first two first adventures in a campaign set in 1620-21. The third part needs new Sorcery rules.

I agree with you about Jeff and Jason, wholeheartedly.

As for Sorcery, all three chapters depend on Sorcery to one extent or the other. Barran the Monster Hunter is easiest, but both the Coders and Arlaten depend pretty heavily on the form for their builds.

And one of the things I think Jeff and Jason could work on is a greater discussion of Sorcery.... I originally thought that's what the Red Book of Magic was.

Edited March 22, 2022 by svensson

[21st Century Moose]

4 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Having just done this with Ian for his Rough Guide to Pavis, I can concur... and the eyestrain!

...not to mention having to revisit some of the RQ3 art. 

[Ian A. Thomson]

7 hours ago, Rick Meints said:

While it would be really cool if a number of RQ3 products could get back into print, they are not a priority of ours. We don't have the text files for most of them. We would have to scan them in, OCR them, clean up the art, and then thoroughly edit the text for OCR errors (and some original errors). Then the art and text have to get laid out again. Add it all up and it is rather time consuming. (I should know because I have done all of that for a number of RQ and CoC classic titles). We have to weigh doing all that against how well they will sell. Sadly, the RQ Classics don't sell as well as you would expect. Yes, the RQ2 rulebook sold very very well. The rest of the RQC line, not so much. 

Also, I should point out that most RQ3 titles can be purchased on eBay for somewhat reasonable prices, especially if you are patient.

All that being said, we did have some fans recreate the Gateway Bestiary for us for free. That was extremely generous (and unexpected) of them, and it is the only reason we now have it for sale as a POD title (and PDF) on Chaosium.com

Hi Rick

I am happy to take on board helming a recreation of Strangers in Prax - definitely Lunar Coders and Arlaten anyway if you might publish them as separate releases - if that interested you?

Obviously flat out busy with the Pavis stuff now, but not too busy to seek and co-ordinate volunteers for the SiP modules to get the thing started

Check the thread above. Two tried and trusted heroic volunteers already putting their hands up! :)

So yes just let me know if that intrigues and we can talk details. At the very least I could provide you with a Word document of proofed and corrected full content

Then if you have a Word template for official products I'd be happy to do basic layout as well. It might be necessary right at at the end to have a layout specialist tweak the final layout, but otherwise I'm already going through exactly this same process with my old Pavis stuff (mostly only available as hardcopies) so I'm living this at the moment and have all the resources/helpful souls to hand

Probably the simplest option is to release it exactly as it was, except maybe to provide a simple tweak of all sorcery details, explaining that it is not the definitive RQG sorcery, but is sufficiently well-formed for sorcery-using NPCs to be run in the game. Likewise with the Coders, some notes could be added about tweaking them for RQG and an explanation that things might be different in future.

Plus of course as pdfs they could indeed be updated in future

Declaration of personal interest. Coders and Arlaten were a great part of my Pavis campaign. Love to be able to direct people to buy these modules rather than rewrite the campaign sections. (Although it would of course take a LOT less effort to rewrite than to recreate these publications. Nonetheless they are so good I'd be glad to help get them back into circulation.)

Cheers

Edited March 23, 2022 by Ian Thomson

[Ian A. Thomson]

7 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

I would very much prefer to have Jeff and Jason work with new stuff like the Cults Book, Sartar book, GM Book etc than spending time on old products. I own Strangers in Prax and plan to play the first two first adventures in a campaign set in 1620-21. The third part needs new Sorcery rules.

Yes, me too

That's why I'm offering to do this work for them! :)

As much as I am not everyone's cup of tea, also I do have a solid reputation of 'getting sh*t done'!

Edited March 23, 2022 by Ian Thomson

[Ian A. Thomson]

2 hours ago, 21st Century Moose said:

...not to mention having to revisit some of the RQ3 art. 

Bill's efforts have been superhuman in this regard. If he signs on to assist with Strangers voluntarily (as he seems to be doing) one would be crazy to pass up this offer! :)

[Ian A. Thomson]

13 hours ago, jajagappa said:

That's the other challenge.  RQ2 is an easier integration into RQG than RQ3 so some amount of conversion notes would minimally be needed.

It's a historic canon thing, so to play it out of history would seem weird

But if the original was re-released that does leave scope for an extension of having them be encountered elsewhere around Glorantha in the new timeline: "The Lunar Coders are back" scenario in a whole other campaign :)

Edited March 23, 2022 by Ian Thomson

[DreadDomain]

9 hours ago, Rick Meints said:

While it would be really cool if a number of RQ3 products could get back into print, they are not a priority of ours. We don't have the text files for most of them. We would have to scan them in, OCR them, clean up the art, and then thoroughly edit the text for OCR errors (and some original errors). Then the art and text have to get laid out again. Add it all up and it is rather time consuming. (I should know because I have done all of that for a number of RQ and CoC classic titles). We have to weigh doing all that against how well they will sell.

I would love to see the RQ3 books back in print but it sounds like a lot of effort and I'd rather have the effort deployed on new products. I might be a bit selfish here but I still have most of my RQ3 books in fairly good condition and the book I would most like to buy again is one Chaosium doesn't seem to be keen on.

9 hours ago, Rick Meints said:

Sadly, the RQ Classics don't sell as well as you would expect. Yes, the RQ2 rulebook sold very very well. The rest of the RQC line, not so much. 

My expectations was (and still is) that RQ Classics would not sell terribly well. I have no doubt it is popular with RQ enthiusiasts and nostalgics but I do not see the RQ Classics line having a strong pull on newcomers. It is also logical that of the line, RQ2 would be the most popular, probably followed by Cults of Prax, Pavis and The Big Rubble. It would probably be the same for RQ3 with the rulebook being the biggest seller by far followed by a second tier set of supplements and the rest being fringe curiosities.   

Edited March 23, 2022 by DreadDomain

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Ian Thomson said:

Bill's efforts have been superhuman in this regard. If he signs on to assist with Strangers voluntarily (as he seems to be doing) one would be crazy to pass up this offer! 🙂

I certainly hope I have not! Being as I believe 21st Century Moose refers to the fine art work of... Dombrowski was it, that is universally reviled (eyestrain indeed!)? All I did was cleanup some art from Dario that did not survive the decades and tech advances very well so even in reality Ian exaggerates but thanks. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Ian A. Thomson]

7 hours ago, svensson said:

I would LOVE to see the Lunar Coders translated into RQG and their backstories updated. Same with Barran the Monster Hunter.

But Arlaten the Magus [and for that matter the Coder Maculus the Monitor] are going to require rebuilds from the ground up. As far as I can see, the new Sorcery system is completely different from the RQ3 version. And given how much all three major groups in Strangers depends on Sorcery for their builds, that's gonna take some work.

I reckon it would be relatively (maybe even 'extremely') easy to provide a description of how the sorcery-using NPCs interact in the world, in the sense of making an amazingly fun and awesome, internally believable and congruent gameplay

With a note to say that these details will be updated in the future when the new sorcery rules are finished and when time allows

I could absolutely see that as being a problem if Arlaten and Maculus were PCs. But they are NPCs. All a GM needs to know is:

* how the NPC acts when casting

* what the effects of the spell are

* how a spell might be resisted

* how often a spell can be cast

[Ian A. Thomson]

2 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I certainly hope I have not! Being as I believe 21st Century Moose refers to the fine art work of... Dombrowski was it, that is universally reviled (eyestrain indeed!)? All I did was cleanup some art from Dario that did not survive the decades and tech advances very well so even in reality Ian exaggerates but thanks. 

Untrue. This guy is a proofing machine!!! :)

[Ian A. Thomson]

4 minutes ago, DreadDomain said:

I would love to see the RQ3 books back in print but it sounds like a lot of effort and I'd rather have to effort deployed on new products. I might be a bit selfish here but I still have most of my RQ3 books in fairly good condition and the book I would most like to buy again is one Chaosium doesn't seem to keen on.

My expectations was (and still is) that RQ Classics would not sell terribly well. I have no doubt it is popular with RQ enthiusiasts and nostalgics but I do not see the RQ Classics line having a strong pull on newcomers. It is also logical that of the line, RQ2 would be the most popular, probably followed by Cults of Prax, Pavis and The Big Rubble. It would probably be the same for RQ3 with the rulebook being the biggest seller by far followed by a second tier set of supplements and the rest being fringe curiosities.   

Yes, but its simpler than that :)

I'm not offering a choice to use my energy for something else RQG. I'm very busy and not interested enough in other things enough to offer my time. (There is undeniable self interest here. The Coders and Arlaten are among the best adventures I've ever seen, and if I can be part of making them available again, I'd love to.) Nothing else that is still out of print grabs me by the vibrants as it were

So the choice here is: Are Chaosium interested in me getting the proofed text and salvaged images for Strangers in Prax, and potentially then getting it updated and laid out, so that i can eventually just hand them a product to publish

Or are they not interested in that, in which case I continue using my energies elsewhere in projects not related to publishing anything new for RQG at all. :)

[DreadDomain]

4 minutes ago, Ian Thomson said:

Yes, but its simpler than that 🙂

I'm not offering a choice to use my energy for something else RQG.

For sure, my comment was more about Chaosium staff currently focused on new RQG product.

4 minutes ago, Ian Thomson said:

I'm very busy and not interested enough in other things enough to offer my time. (There is undeniable self interest here. The Coders and Arlaten are among the best adventures I've ever seen, and if I can be part of making them available again, I'd love to.) Nothing else that is still out of print grabs me by the vibrants as it were

So the choice here is: Are Chaosium interested in me getting the proofed text and salvaged images for Strangers in Prax, and potentially then getting it updated and laid out, so that i can eventually just hand them a product to publish

I am not Chaosium but I am interesed!

 

[Ian A. Thomson]

14 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I believe Rick has said that there are no text files available - these have to be OCR scanned and then verified.  Based on the RQ Classics, this was a time-consuming process.

Oh heck yes. I'm three weeks of full-time work into doing all that with the old Pavis & Big Rubble Companions now. And I am happy to add SiP into the middle of that cruel machine of soulless productivity!