Ritual Sacrifice Rules

[Darius West]

Within Glorantha, many societies perform sacrifices as part of their worship rituals.  Presently the rules on RQG p316 cover the idea of sacrifice, but they only provide a small bonus to a priest's chances of a successful worship roll.  This doesn't seem sufficient imo, especially given that the priest can pre-boost their roll by 10% per 2 magic points they use.  Given that magic points are replenished daily, why would anyone ever sacrifice 300L worth of animals or goods for a benefit that amounts to 4MP?  Most adventuring parties would be very happy to receive 300L as their payout for an adventure, and the notion that they would spend this for a minor bonus on a worship skill roll seems like spending a small fortune for a wholly inadequate return, especially as a decently skilled priest likely doesn't need the skill boost at all.

We are also not getting a sense of the role that such sacrifices perform in the life of the clans and tribes, which should be substantial.  I don't know if the upcoming Game Master's Book for RQG is going to have rules that cover this in more detail, and it may be considered an unpleasant topic for some people, but these forms of worship were and still are performed by many cultures irl, and RQG is incorporating these ideas to some degree within the game, not actually harming animals.  

Personally I would like to talk about creating a more in-depth system that incorporates systems of sacrifice into RQG in a balanced fashion, producing larger results.  I suspect that sacrifices and special worship ceremonies may be very important for the life of a clan, a tribe, and each of the individuals within them.  I like the idea that the sacrifice creates powerful magical energies that might be channeled into powering a Wyter, or preparing for a hero quest, or creating generalized magical effects that the tribe can call upon on a daily basis as a result of their efforts.  I also like to suppose that if an individual shows particular piety by offering a large sacrifice, that they stand to be rewarded with more than a bonus to their worship skill.  On the other hand, how do we balance such things?  What do people think?  What systems are like-minded GMs presently using?

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

There will be social benefits from sacrificing an edible animal.  Most people don't get much meat any other way, see the income level notes.  Let's say a trader is new in town, sells his goods and goes to the local shrine to worship and recharge MPs.  If he wants to get on the right side of people he hardly knows, bring a sacrificial pig for a barbecue plus an amphora if beer.  But this needs to be role played and GM'd.  Hard to write down the social benefits as a rule.

 

  

[David Scott]

I allow the sacrifice to count towards Rune magic (100/L point) and cult tithing (breaking away from the abstract section in Sacred time). Some cults, such as Oakfed offer different magic if you special your Worship roll, so increasing it makes sense. By whatever method most people will boost their worship roll to 100%, so it's not difficult.

[soltakss]

The Book of Doom has a whole section on ritual sacrifice.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

never played any house rule, but interesting question !

 

2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

There will be social benefits from sacrificing an edible animal.

seems to me very important

you may gain reputation (look this guy offered twenty pink cows last year in sacrifice)

you may gain loyalty (to the temple, to the clan or any community level, to your friend you need so much the gods help)

and it is too the only mean I know to help someone else to improve her worship skill (you sacrifice mp for yourself, you may give the cow to the other one, who gains then the benefit of the sacrifice)

 

note that there is something not in the rules : could the gods be unsatisfied by the ceremony ? because bad sings, too few sacrifice, etc... we may propose some penalty if the whole community doesn't fit the gods expectation.

 

[Darius West]

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

There will be social benefits from sacrificing an edible animal.  Most people don't get much meat any other way, see the income level notes.  Let's say a trader is new in town, sells his goods and goes to the local shrine to worship and recharge MPs.  If he wants to get on the right side of people he hardly knows, bring a sacrificial pig for a barbecue plus an amphora if beer.  But this needs to be role played and GM'd.  Hard to write down the social benefits as a rule.

This is a very good point.  In the Classical world it is a known fact that only the fat was sacrificed to the Gods, and the meat went to feed the community.

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

The Book of Doom has a whole section on ritual sacrifice.

Thanks for the heads-up.  I don't own that yet.  What are some salient points from those rules (if you have the time Soltkass)?

54 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

you may gain reputation (look this guy offered twenty pink cows last year in sacrifice)

you may gain loyalty (to the temple, to the clan or any community level, to your friend you need so much the gods help)

and it is too the only mean I know to help someone else to improve her worship skill (you sacrifice mp for yourself, you may give the cow to the other one, who gains then the benefit of the sacrifice)

So, how many MPs does the sacrificed animal have?  Do they go to the god when it is sacrificed?  

[Darius West]

I would draw people's attention to RQG page 406.  This places the value of 1MP at 1L, a single use of a reusable RP at 20L, and a single use of a non-reusable RP at 200L.

If we then think about the 7 Cow sacrifice favored by the Lightbringers (at least according to KoDP computer game, but hey, it's lore friendly enough for me), that would mean such a sacrifice is worth 140L.  On the other hand, a single cow on RQG 316 is worth +20% to Worship.  Does that mean that 7 cows=+140% worship?  The same can be achieved by spending 28MP (total value 28L).  With rules as they stand at the moment, I can't imagine any Gloranthan ever sacrificing anything ever unless it was for the most perverse motives.

I personally would like to see local deities using sacrifices to buff the skills of Clan Members while in their lands, as in the KoDP computer game, and when you price it, that's a pretty reasonable expense for a clan. 

I am also inclined to think that if characters want to spend 200L, they can have a free +1RP, courtesy of a grateful deity, with the Lightbringers getting a special 60L discount for a 7 cow sacrifice.

This means that GMs need to pinch players' pennies a bit more than usual, but I personally have always found the juxtaposition of 'High Piety meets Penny Pinching Greed (Desperate Materialism, both physical and spiritual) to be one of the more amusing inner conflicts of RQ in all its versions.

You young whippersnappers probably don't remember what it was like back in RQ2 when after being ransomed back to New Pavis, you had to beg, borrow, cajole, and wheedle to scrape together enough equipment to mount a fresh rubble expedition to cover those outgoings and set you up with a fighting chance to claw your way back. 

Where's my "waves his walking stick emoji" at?  Now get off my lawn! 🧙‍♂️☹️

I think I'll go and have a nice lie down now.😉

Edited May 2, 2022 by Darius West

[French Desperate WindChild]

22 minutes ago, Darius West said:

So, how many MPs does the sacrificed animal have?  Do they go to the god when it is sacrificed?  

don't care 🙂 i use it more from a roleplay perspective than a economic solution

5 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I am also inclined to think that if characters want to spend 200L, they can have a free +1RP, courtesy of a grateful deity, with the Lightbringers getting a special 60L discount for a 7 cow sacrifice.

not me for two reasons

as a god (I am the gm after all 😛 ) I don't consider lunar as something important. what is important is the level of sacrifice. 10% is what is expected. 20% is better. 200L sacrificed by a rich king is an insult to me, 20L sacrificed by a poor fisher is a great proof of devotion

as rule keeper ( I am the gm after all 😛 ) I dislike to consider money for something else than secular -how much I  disliked the gold = xp from d&d. I know there is the "matrix workaround" -you pay, you gain POW-equivalent, but that is yet for me a concern

 

[Bren]

The very large bonus from expending quickly renewed MPs also strikes me as a bit off. I'm tempted to find a way to tie the MP sacrifice bonus to also providing a material sacrifice. So to be able to get that +100% bonus from sacrificing an additional 10 MPs (over and above the 2 MP minimum for Worship), you would have to sacrifice something material, like say, a cow (which gets you another +20% bonus).

Another option is to limit the bonus from MPs to no more than the bonus achieved from other things (location, holy day, material goods, etc.)

On a related issue, looking at the tables on p. 316, I'm surprised that non-living, material goods give so much less of a bonus than living sacrifices a cow that costs 20L and bronze armor panoply costing 300L each give the same +20% bonus to Worship. Why the order of magnitude difference in cost?

[Bren]

I've been reading and enjoying a series of blog posts by a historian named Bret Devereaux. His posts on Polytheism and Oaths (specifically the section: "So what is an Oath? Is it the same as a Vow?") both relate to questions of sacrifice and worship in the real world.

[Beoferret]

I was just thinking about this issue last night! It is very strange that MP sacrifice is so effective, since it doesn't encourage as much engagement with the world. Maybe Bren's suggestion is the way to go (house rules wise) or one could shift the value of MPs spent during worship ceremonies from 1 MP = 10% augment to 1 MP = 5% (or even 1-2%) augment to worship skill. Does anyone remember what Jeff required from his players in the White Bull campaign videos that have been posted? 

[Bren]

Going off my memory, I recall the Humakti, Garan Grimseeming, giving a relatively large non-living item gift (I think it was at least 100L). As he did that, I remember thinking - why didn't he by some bison and sacrifice them it'd be way cheaper for the same bonus.

Then the player failed or fumbled his worship roll (which I believe was boosted up to 100%+). The rationale mentioned for the failure was that Garan should have known that killing something would have been more pleasing to the god of Death then some treasure.

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, Bren said:

... I'm surprised that non-living, material goods give so much less of a bonus than living sacrifices a cow that costs 20L and bronze armor panoply costing 300L each give the same +20% bonus to Worship. Why the order of magnitude difference in cost?

Because it ( the cow ) is living and so has a spirit.  When you sacrifice the cow presumably some portion of its MPs or POW feeds the god.  When your character sacrifices MPs or POW that feeds the god.  

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

7 hours ago, Beoferret said:

Does anyone remember what Jeff required from his players in the White Bull campaign videos that have been posted? 

the main point with this campaign is that players roleplay a lot and do things not described by the rules but very relevant things (at least for me) based on their pc's devotion /passion/just character.  What is interesting then, as GM, is how Jeff reacts, to give bonus and to explain failure :

7 hours ago, Bren said:

The rationale mentioned for the failure was that Garan should have known that killing something would have been more pleasing to the god of Death then some treasure.

the same sacrifice with a success role will be explained as the death god's satisfaction. I don't use this example to as a rule explanation, for me it is just storytelling (and good one). After all gods may have sometimes good mood and othertimes bad mood

[JRE]

Sacrifice is, for me, implicit in many ceremonies, without any bonus, and possibly a negative if you lack it. That is a big part of the cult tithes, livestock, foodstuff or other objects dedicated to the deity. That is not destroyed in whole, usually just a small part and the rest shared with the congregation. So, for Orlanthi, as Orlanth will host you in his Long House in the other side, I am sure his ceremonies involve sacrificial food and drink. That may also explain why so many orlanthi quests start with a feast. It is better to be well fed and in good spirits when you face the unknown.

The benefit from donating more than you should is almost purely social, as the donor does not officiate the ceremony. Donating will probably get you mentioned, and that could justify the small skill increase. As the tithe depends on your income, it allows a poor widow show more virtue donating a chicken than a rich trader donating a couple of cows. 

An exception could be a ceremony made just because a PC has donated seven cows, so the daily ceremony becomes much bigger, all the neighbours will come because they know there will be a banquet, and you can recover Runepoints because what was almost a small private worship (where only the officiating priest recovers Runepoints) becomes a major ceremony where all initiates can recover RPs. Everybody will bless the donor's generosity, so I might apply a bigger bonus, if this is a deity that values generosity. 

In my Glorantha no initiate in good status will risk starvation in his community, unless they all starve, or if the god becomes silent, which is another of the horrors of the Windstop. Just attend the daily ceremonies and you will receive some food. 

[Darius West]

14 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

as rule keeper ( I am the gm after all 😛 ) I dislike to consider money for something else than secular -how much I  disliked the gold = xp from d&d. I know there is the "matrix workaround" -you pay, you gain POW-equivalent, but that is yet for me a concern

Well, I understand the limits of the 1gp=1xp system, but for D&D at its primitive stage of development, that was actually a pretty good rule, as it actually provided a means of getting stronger without recourse to violence and murder.  For me it smelled like an attempt at providing a means for actual roleplaying to occur as opposed to wargaming, by creating an alternative xp economy.  Later on of course, the idea of giving players xp based on completing an encounter successfully became a thing.  The BRP skill tick system is so much better imo, but it suffers from its own micro-rorts of course.  (How does a character wind up with "dwarf wrapping" at 60% ?)

As to the problems with what you call 'pay for power', well, it can definitely work, and work well, its just that the GM needs to get a little stingy and make players work hard for their coin.  Personally, I have had characters forced to put their magic storage crystals up as collateral on loans, or selling used trollkin cuirboulli in the Godsday open market in order to make rent.   I make characters worry about where their next payday is coming from.  This is part of why owning land is so great, you get at least one good payday per year.  

As to that matrix workaround, I don't think it applies to initiates anymore.  They don't learn enchantments in RQG, that seems to be limited to Rune levels.

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Well, I understand the limits of the 1gp=1xp system, but for D&D at its primitive stage of development, that was actually a pretty good rule, as it actually provided a means of getting stronger without recourse to violence and murder.  For me it smelled like an attempt at providing a means for actual roleplaying to occur as opposed to wargaming, by creating an alternative xp economy.  Later on of course, the idea of giving players xp based on completing an encounter successfully became a thing.  The BRP skill tick system is so much better imo, but it suffers from its own micro-rorts of course.  (How does a character wind up with "dwarf wrapping" at 60% ?)

As to the problems with what you call 'pay for power', well, it can definitely work, and work well, its just that the GM needs to get a little stingy and make players work hard for their coin.  Personally, I have had characters forced to put their magic storage crystals up as collateral on loans, or selling used trollkin cuirboulli in the Godsday open market in order to make rent.   I make characters worry about where their next payday is coming from.  This is part of why owning land is so great, you get at least one good payday per year.  

As to that matrix workaround, I don't think it applies to initiates anymore.  They don't learn enchantments in RQG, that seems to be limited to Rune levels.

Yes I understand you ( the big issue I had centuries ago was that the gold I had was from the plunder of the only dungeon I did, not because I had enough npc working for me. People with  me were young, and their was a name to describe them « gros bill » (kill plunder kill hahaha) not exactly my taste 🙂 so just an adventure then buy runequest )

 

You didn’t understand I think my workaround :

the pc , as initiate or not, pay for a matrix. That is the same that paying for an additional runepoint. You give money and you gain extra pow (dedicated to something yes.. mp, spell, … but extra mp) no problem if the cost was 1000 silvers but not the case in the rules (too cheap for me)

 

[JRE]

Thinking a bit more deeply on the matter of sacrifices as already included in the ceremonies and connecting with the thread about the ficial replenishing of Rune Points, I suspect the wealth of a community will affect how important are the ceremonies, and that will affect how much renewable magic is available.

This quickly builds up as a virtuous cycle and you get the Esrolia case, rich, as rich they have plentiful sacrifices, and that means more blessings so you get even richer... Inversely, if you want to limit RP recovery, just tie it up with the availability of tithes and sacrifices, so unless the players bring wealth and cows, they may have to wait a whole season for a major worship ceremony, as that is what their clan can afford. 

It is extra work, but each interaction of cult and culture will bring up preferred sacrifices. Bring up a human prisoner to a Cacodemon temple and it will be a big event, though they will try to make them last, so one human sacrifice per season unless they got half a dozen at the same time. That way rescue is an option (MGF). Chalana Arroy probably takes medicinal and aromatic herbs and a tithe of fresh vegetables. Orlanth probably meat animals and beer, though the beer is probably linked more with Ernalda and her daughters, but that is the point of being married, sharing the burdens and the benefits... Rex will melt jewels (though the metal can be reused), and also bring better animals and expensive drinks such as wine. Adventurous may take also weapons that in most cases will end up in the temple armory. Old saxons sacrificed weapons throwing them in bogs and lakes. That could work also in Glorantha, though usually you destroy only the best of the lot as a worthy sacrifice. 

This fits with my vision of most ceremonies being long, many hours to a whole day, so food and drink need to be provided by the temple.

In a large temple, you would have ceremonies every day, but on Freezeday you will get the leftovers, cold mutton and flat beer, though a wise priest will make sure there is something fresh for Orlanth's portion. In Windsday you may well get a whole sheep in a firepit and most of the community will join, and depending on any associates involved, incense from Issaries, healing poultices applied from CA, and scribe services as well as some burnt papyrus from Lhankor Mhy. It is a ceremony, but it is also how a community joins together and supports its people.

[icebrand]

2 hours ago, JRE said:

Thinking a bit more deeply on the matter of sacrifices as already included in the ceremonies and connecting with the thread about the ficial replenishing of Rune Points, I suspect the wealth of a community will affect how important are the ceremonies, and that will affect how much renewable magic is available.

This quickly builds up as a virtuous cycle and you get the Esrolia case, rich, as rich they have plentiful sacrifices, and that means more blessings so you get even richer... Inversely, if you want to limit RP recovery, just tie it up with the availability of tithes and sacrifices, so unless the players bring wealth and cows, they may have to wait a whole season for a major worship ceremony, as that is what their clan can afford. 

It is extra work, but each interaction of cult and culture will bring up preferred sacrifices. Bring up a human prisoner to a Cacodemon temple and it will be a big event, though they will try to make them last, so one human sacrifice per season unless they got half a dozen at the same time. That way rescue is an option (MGF). Chalana Arroy probably takes medicinal and aromatic herbs and a tithe of fresh vegetables. Orlanth probably meat animals and beer, though the beer is probably linked more with Ernalda and her daughters, but that is the point of being married, sharing the burdens and the benefits... Rex will melt jewels (though the metal can be reused), and also bring better animals and expensive drinks such as wine. Adventurous may take also weapons that in most cases will end up in the temple armory. Old saxons sacrificed weapons throwing them in bogs and lakes. That could work also in Glorantha, though usually you destroy only the best of the lot as a worthy sacrifice. 

This fits with my vision of most ceremonies being long, many hours to a whole day, so food and drink need to be provided by the temple.

In a large temple, you would have ceremonies every day, but on Freezeday you will get the leftovers, cold mutton and flat beer, though a wise priest will make sure there is something fresh for Orlanth's portion. In Windsday you may well get a whole sheep in a firepit and most of the community will join, and depending on any associates involved, incense from Issaries, healing poultices applied from CA, and scribe services as well as some burnt papyrus from Lhankor Mhy. It is a ceremony, but it is also how a community joins together and supports its people.

I love it!

Btw i just read today that as late as early iron the sacrifices were thrown in a marsh/lake instead, so they actually sacrificed stuff for real (there was a lake with hundreds of animal skeletons).

Only the fat was sacrificed for animals though, the meat was lunch!

[soltakss]

On 5/2/2022 at 7:05 PM, Darius West said:

On 5/2/2022 at 4:41 PM, soltakss said:

The Book of Doom has a whole section on ritual sacrifice.

Thanks for the heads-up.  I don't own that yet.  What are some salient points from those rules (if you have the time Soltkass)?

They are more about using Ritual Sacrifice to get specific magical effects.

• Want to cure a Plague? Sure, sacrifice a number of people and the deities will grant you magic to cure it.
• Want to lift the curse on a land? Go ahead and sacrifice the Ruler.
• Want to curse someone big time? Sacrifice 10 people to the right deities and they put a curse on your enemy.

So, not really about sacrificing a lamb to get some mana or a little benefit, or even burning some sausages to make your deity happy.

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

or even burning some sausages to make your deity happy.

At the very least, burning the sausages (but not too much) makes the cultists happy.

[Baron Wulfraed]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

At the very least, burning the sausages (but not too much) makes the cultists happy.

Just making sausages should qualify as some form of ritual sacrifice 😲

[Darius West]

On 5/4/2022 at 12:51 AM, JRE said:

In a large temple, you would have ceremonies every day, but on Freezeday you will get the leftovers, cold mutton and flat beer, though a wise priest will make sure there is something fresh for Orlanth's portion. In Windsday you may well get a whole sheep in a firepit and most of the community will join, and depending on any associates involved, incense from Issaries, healing poultices applied from CA, and scribe services as well as some burnt papyrus from Lhankor Mhy. It is a ceremony, but it is also how a community joins together and supports its people.

In ancient Greece, only the fat and bones went to the gods:

Prometheus vs Zeus

[Ali the Helering]

10 minutes ago, Darius West said:

In ancient Greece, only the fat and bones went to the gods:

Prometheus vs Zeus

Actually quite common across the  Ancient World - the Bible speaks of 'the fatmost parts'. 

I still like the pragmatism of the Nuer - when a cow sacrifice was called for, if the individual couldn't afford it then they cut a cucumber in half, throwing one half away to be consumed by the spirits.

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

In ancient Greece, only the fat and bones went to the gods:

and the blood libation. I'd suggest looking at A companion to Greek religion (https://archive.org/details/companiontogreek0000unse_o8m1/page/106/mode/2up?q=sacrifice) if you join you can borrow it for an hour. Have a look at ritual: consumption or destruction. It's full of sacrifice.