Honor and ambushes

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

No Babeester Gori should spare a rapist just for being unarmed,

“He still has a weapon. Ask his victim. I’m here to fix that.”

[Darius West]

On 5/19/2022 at 3:39 PM, metcalph said:

I undersood Jeff to be talking about tactics such as killing prisoners rather than say, raining thunderstones on a lunar patrol that just crossed a river.

Fair enough.  Killing prisoners is definitely involves an honor penalty.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Nick Brooke said:

“He still has a weapon. Ask his victim. I’m here to fix that.”

[soltakss]

On 5/20/2022 at 12:59 PM, PhilHibbs said:

What do folks think we should do if a character doesn't start with the Honour passion? Start it at 60 when the first penalty or bonus is incurred?

Ignore it, as Honour is not important to that Adventurers.

On 5/20/2022 at 1:35 PM, Akhôrahil said:

Not having an Honor passion has got to possible - for instance, a trickster is going to have an empty honor score, as might other characters (Storm Bulls don’t do the honorable combat thing, I believe - Chaos needs to be fought by any means, fair or foul).

My Chalana Arroy Adventurers doesn't have the Honour passion and he behaves just fine, Not all Adventurers have Honour.

 

[Akhôrahil]

11 minutes ago, soltakss said:

My Chalana Arroy Adventurers doesn't have the Honour passion and he behaves just fine, Not all Adventurers have Honour.

What makes this tricky is that there are lots of social norms that are upheld through how violating them is dishonorable. Everyone (or most everyone) is expected to uphold hospitality, inflict revenge, and so on, not merely the ones with an Honor passion. I can't imagine that only more martial characters with an Honor passion will be held to such things. And when so, isn't Honor how you should track these things in game?

[soltakss]

4 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

What makes this tricky is that there are lots of social norms that are upheld through how violating them is dishonorable. Everyone (or most everyone) is expected to uphold hospitality, inflict revenge, and so on, not merely the ones with an Honor passion.

So, I would use other skills to emulate this. Homeland Lore, Culture and so on. If I had a clash then I would use my other Passions to see which one takes precedence.

5 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I can't imagine that only more martial characters with an Honor passion will be held to such things. And when so, isn't Honor how you should track these things in game?

No, why should I track something using Honour if I don't have it?

If someone is declared outlaw and is injured, but I heal them and put them under my protection, am I behaving honourably? Ami I following the hospitality or rules of the clan? Am I following the ways of the Healer and of Chalana Arroy?

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

57 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I can't imagine that only more martial characters with an Honor passion will be held to such things.

I agree.  IMO, the idea that Honor is solely a "martial" virtue is artificially limiting.  Alternatively, there could be something similar, just with a different name, for non-martial characters.  Scholars and merchants and healers etc. have their own sense of "honor" or "correct behavior", even if they sometimes break it.  For simplicity, I'd still call it "Honor" instead of "Follows Hippocratic Oath" or "Doesn't Sell Guicci Knockoffs".  YMMV.

As for Babs Gor, Storm Bull, and similar cults, they just don't believe in Honor or other behavioral norms.  They are true believer fanatics following a "higher" principle.

[JRE]

For most social mores, I would alternately use loyalty or love (Family, clan, even temple) as what you do reflects on them, good or bad.

Kill prisoners? Loyalty Clan, as this may well start a blood feud.

Offer Hospitality? Love Family or Clan, as it will be all who are affected. It can be complex (a known rapist would require your family love to reject him hospitality in your house, but not if he will be housed in a common hall). 

Or you can use Hate to do socially negative actions. Fail Hate Lunars to spare the prisoners, or pass Hate to kill them.

There are other Passions besides Honor.

Fear Lunars could be used to spare Lunars, or killing Lunar prisoners could be used to decrease your Fear for acting against your Passion.

The players will be creative with Passions, so you need to be too.

A honorable Merchant could have Passions such as Do not lie, or Play Fair, which act as limited versions of Honor, applicable to the kind of temptations they will find in their normal life.

Whether we want or not, combat is a big part of most games, and limiting your options is a matter of life and death that inflating the quality of a horse seldom has. But I play that as your renown grows, your passions are better known, and there can be benefits from being considered honorable, or honest, or loyal.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

No, why should I track something using Honour if I don't have it?

Because Honor also serves as a meter for how others think of you. If you perform acts considered dishonorable, then ”Oh, I don’t do that honor thing” isn’t much of an excuse, unless perhaps you belong to a category of people from whom honorable behaviour isn’t expected (such as tricksters).

[Akhôrahil]

51 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

As for Babs Gor, Storm Bull, and similar cults, they just don't believe in Honor or other behavioral norms.  They are true believer fanatics following a "higher" principle.

Agree. Storm Bulls will not only kill Chaos by any means fair or foul, but honor will also be really difficult to uphold when you’re an uncontrollable berserker. And BG has very different rules for proper action, where people deserving punishment won’t be able to use concepts of honor to shield themselves. Letting yourself be restrained by honor could easily be a bad thing.

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Because Honor also serves as a meter for how others think of you. If you perform acts considered dishonorable, then ”Oh, I don’t do that honor thing” isn’t much of an excuse, unless perhaps you belong to a category of people from whom honorable behaviour isn’t expected (such as tricksters).

So, you gain a Dishonourable Passion.

Why bother with an Honour Passion that is going to be below 60% if you are not honourable?

[Akhôrahil]

1 minute ago, soltakss said:

So, you gain a Dishonourable Passion.

Why bother with an Honour Passion that is going to be below 60% if you are not honourable?

I actually gave a Gagarthi NPC a Dishonorable passion, but that meant he went out of his way to actively act against rules of honor.

And I don’t think a low Honor is any weirder than a low Reputation. You’re not going augment with it, but it’s a good metric.

[Lordabdul]

6 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

What makes this tricky is that there are lots of social norms that are upheld through how violating them is dishonorable. Everyone (or most everyone) is expected to uphold hospitality, inflict revenge, and so on, not merely the ones with an Honor passion. I can't imagine that only more martial characters with an Honor passion will be held to such things. And when so, isn't Honor how you should track these things in game?

Take the society you live in right now -- there are a lot of social norms. Be polite, wash your hands after going to the toilet, invite people back, be a gentle host, hold the door, let people come out of the bus before you get in, give you seat to the elderly and pregnant women, and so on. It's not "dishonourable" to not do these things. It's just, like, being an asshole. Or having a high Disorder Rune.

Passions are driving principles of your character's life: love and protect your family, be loyal to your Queen, and so on. Do they think that upholding the traditional values of Heortling culture is on par with these other principles? Do you know anybody who holds politeness or sense of place or whatever to a comparable degree to "yes, if called upon, I'm going to take my father's sword and shield and go fight"? (well, 60% of the time) If so then, I don't know, maybe add a "Cultural Zealot" Passion or something. Maybe characters like Serena Waterford in Handmaid's Tale have something like it. But for the vast majority of characters, I think how much they value social norms goes under the radar of the Passion mechanics. With a more granular system like, say, GURPS, you might be able to take a -1 or -3 Disadvantage that gives a small penalty to the NPCs' Reaction Rolls. But RuneQuest is go big or go home -- either it's something that gets your blood boil and your heart pumping, or it's not. So again, I think you're really talking about who's got higher Harmony vs Disorder, along with lesser effects of Loyalty/Love Passions.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Ludovic aka Lordabdul

[PhilHibbs]

4 hours ago, soltakss said:

So, you gain a Dishonourable Passion.

Why bother with an Honour Passion that is going to be below 60% if you are not honourable?

The two are mechanically identical. 40% Honour is 60% Dishonour. How you track it is up to you. Everyone has an honour rating, if it didn’t come up in character background then it’s 50%. Feel free to not track it or care about it, but it it still exists and it can go down. Like @Akhôrahil said, the only people who can opt out are tricksters.

[Shiningbrow]

11 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Because Honor also serves as a meter for how others think of you.

that's called Reputation.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

that's called Reputation.

It is not. That’s whether you’re known. You can have a High Reputation because you’re universally loathed.

Edited May 22, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Nick Brooke]

19 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

It is not. That’s whether you’re known. You can have a High Reputation because you’re universally loathed.

e.g. Piers Morgan.

[Shiningbrow]

48 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

It is not. That’s whether you’re known. You can have a High Reputation because you’re universally loathed.

I beg to differ.

Reputation is very much both whether you are known, and what for.

Remember that when doing Reputation adjustments, the player should be recording what each is for. A successful ambush of a Lunar patrol would garner a bit of Reputation, and probably also lower Honour (going by what some on here think). Most Orlanthi would probably treat you better, not worse.

Honour is not about what other people think of you, because you can do many dishonourable acts (thus, lowering your Honour), which people will never ever know about. (going by what has been said earlier by the Chaosium staff).

 

31 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

e.g. Piers Morgan.

Incorrect.

I know the name, and even seen him on TV - but I can't tell you whether he's considered good or not. Thus, neither "universally" nor "loathed".

[French Desperate WindChild]

13 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Because Honor also serves as a meter for how others think of you. If you perform acts considered dishonorable, then ”Oh, I don’t do that honor thing” isn’t much of an excuse, unless perhaps you belong to a category of people from whom honorable behaviour isn’t expected (such as tricksters).

this raises  a lot of things :

why humakti are feared even if they are honorable ?

would a chalana arroy priestess be seen as honorable if she accepts duel and kill honorably her opponent ?

would a chalana arroy priestess be seen as dishonable if she refuses any duel ?

of course chalana arroy... put ernalda, put any one

 

I think a better notion (doesn't exist in rqg) would be to define a "reputation score" for any community with the same values. You may have a positive reputation in black fang community and a negative one in Pavis

you, humakti, may have a good reputation among chalana arroy cultist because, even if you kill people (that's your role after all) because you are very respectful of any healer. etc...

 

the big issue with honor in rqg for me is the word "honor", not what is behind. I don't know if there is any word in english but I would more call it "way of the warrior" * than "honor" (in the XXI century sense)

 

then the best way, for me, if you don't want to add to many numbers is to note your deeds and facing someone recognazing you (rqg reputation) define her reactions.

 

 

* yes bushido, but no, not bushido, we are talking about glorantha, not the 5 rings

Edited May 22, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild

[Akhôrahil]

58 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Reputation is very much both whether you are known, and what for.

It really isn't. Sure, a good GM is going to keep track of such things mentally or by notes, but Reputation is a number, and that number explicitly measures your fame (or infamy). You can't say anything about someone's qualities merely by knowing their Reputation score.

Edited May 22, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

29 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

why humakti are feared even if they are honorable ?

Because getting honorably killed still sucks?

29 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

would a chalana arroy priestess be seen as honorable if she accepts duel and kill honorably her opponent ?

No, because apart from the obvious religious stuff, that would entail something much worse - oathbreaking.

30 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

would a chalana arroy priestess be seen as dishonable if she refuses any duel ?

of course chalana arroy... put ernalda, put any one

This puts the finger on how Honor doesn't completely hold together as a system. Only an honorable combatant has to accept honorable duels, but everyone has follow the laws of hospitality. So is honor a martial virtue, or can that cottar without an Honor score still be reasonably condemned for dishonorable behavior? 

33 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I think a better notion (doesn't exist in rqg) would be to define a "reputation score" for any community with the same values. You may have a positive reputation in black fang community and a negative one in Pavis

I have toyed with introducing a "Standing" score on a per community basis, where your Standing would be a combination of your social status (which will often be significantly about resources) and your reputation. If it's denominated 1-100, it would indicate in what percentile of the social group your character is considered (cue "the 1%" jokes). 

[soltakss]

7 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Everyone has an honour rating, if it didn’t come up in character background then it’s 50%. Feel free to not track it or care about it, but it it still exists and it can go down. Like @Akhôrahil said, the only people who can opt out are tricksters.

I don't agree.

Your Passions are what is important to you. If you don't particularly care about Honour/Dishonour then you shouldn't have it in your character sheet.

If you behave particularly honourably or dishonourably, the GM might give you a Passion but you shouldn't always have such a Passion.

Honour/Dishonour could be tracked in the same way as Power Runes, so increasing one decreases the other, but that isn't how the normal RuneQuest Glorantha rules work, at the moment.

[Shiningbrow]

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Reputation is very much both whether you are known, and what for.

It really isn't. Sure, a good GM is going to keep track of such things mentally or by notes, but Reputation is a number, and that number explicitly measures your fame (or infamy).

You are confusing me.... You're basically agreeing with me, except I point out that the deeds are recorded as Reputation grows, and you're saying the GM would do the recording.

 

You are correct that people won't know your qualities, but they will know how you express yourself (well, how things have turned out - things may not have gone as you've planned).

 

"Reputation measures an adventurer’s fame, notoriety, and renown. It includes one’s lineage, and deeds both glorious
and infamous... breaking an oath, behaving dishonorably, or committing foul deeds can make one just as famous
(or even more so) than right action and heroic achievements." (p. 237, my emphasis).

 

"It is possible to gain Reputation for an act and lose Honor for it, as well" (p. 239). Also possible to increase Reputation for doing something bad, but gaining honor - because people may lie, or misunderstand, etc.

[SJB]

Real paladins in honour-based societies had a pretty good grip on its limitations:

“Take off your armour, Marshal: why are you armed?”

“I prefer it this way, if you please, sire. My armour doesn’t bother me. I shan’t disarm till I know what we’ve got to deal with! An unarmed man won’t last in a serious clash or crisis, and we’ve no idea what the French are going to do.”

The History of William Marshal

The Marshal behaves like an average D&D PC.

 

[Baron Wulfraed]

11 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I think a better notion (doesn't exist in rqg) would be to define a "reputation score" for any community with the same values. You may have a positive reputation in black fang community and a negative one in Pavis

How does this differ from the modifiers shown on page 241 of RQ:RiG?