Gold-Gotti

[Erol of Backford]

From Barbarian Adventures - When did Gold-Gotti arrive in Karse? What type of ship would he have arrived in? Where would he have set up shop there? Possibly to the NE of the market but then moved his offices into the fortress? Where in Wilmskirk did he move and when? How may guards does he have? Is Silverfingers a Humakti? How would his wealth compare to that of Gringle?

[Jeff]

The description of Gold-Gotti from Barbarian Adventures is wildly non-canonical for RQ. Here's his short description:

Gold Gotti was born in the Ygg’s Islands around 1575 and has sailed with the Wolf Pirates his entire life. He is an avaricious but very competent leader, pragmatic and amoral. He's gone from being a poverty-stricken villager to a rich and powerful pirate warlord. He is among the most important captains in the Wolf Pirate fleet, and stands second only to Gunda in Harrek’s estimation.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

We have him as a corrupt rich SOB merchant / quartermaster type high up in Argrath's entourage.  I didn't realize he was also (formerly?) a pirate.  Now my PC hates him even more.  🙂

[Erol of Backford]

LOL the name is just a bit conspicuous and goes along with your PC's general longing to be his BFF.

I am guessing he sells pirated goods through his warehouses in Karse and Skull Port?

In 1610, the Wolf Pirates settle on Three Step Isles but when roughly would Gold Gotti have setup shop in Karse? When would have been the earliest he may have done so? If he had set this up before the Lunars had invaded what if anything would have happened to his warehouses/goods therein? Were they plundered by the Lunars, I am thinking not at tat time plus being pirates they likely smuggle and bribe rather than pay lunar taxes?

[Erol of Backford]

As an FYI:

[M Helsdon]

On 7/31/2022 at 6:25 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

We have him as a corrupt rich SOB merchant / quartermaster type high up in Argrath's entourage.  I didn't realize he was also (formerly?) a pirate.  Now my PC hates him even more.  🙂

Gold-Gotti is and was a Wolf Pirate, now leading his own large warband in Argrath's Free Army. Whilst very rich from plunder, he is not and never was a merchant.

Edited August 2, 2022 by M Helsdon

[jajagappa]

18 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

As an FYI:

All non-canonical.  The problem with many of the HW-era contents is they went off in tangents that did not align with Greg's original plans (including that of the WBRM boardgame).  Gold-Gotti was supposed to be (and has been restored as) a Wolf Pirate.  As always, you can go choose to go in the HW direction if it fits your campaign.

19 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

In 1610, the Wolf Pirates settle on Three Step Isles but when roughly would Gold Gotti have setup shop in Karse? When would have been the earliest he may have done so? If he had set this up before the Lunars had invaded what if anything would have happened to his warehouses/goods therein? Were they plundered by the Lunars, I am thinking not at tat time plus being pirates they likely smuggle and bribe rather than pay lunar taxes?

The Wolf Pirates were not a presence in the Mirrorsea until Harrek destroyed the Holy Country fleet in 1616.  

The most natural time for Wolf Pirates to "settle" in Karse is after the Lunar garrison is driven out in 1624.  But most preferring the easier approach to gaining plunder, they are most likely to simply charge exorbitant tolls on those trying to either bring goods to Dragon Pass via Karse or send goods out of Karse to Nochet and beyond.  Good profit either way, and no bothering with warehouses or having to actually trade the goods.

[metcalph]

27 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

 

The Wolf Pirates were not a presence in the Mirrorsea until Harrek destroyed the Holy Country fleet in 1616.  

Wolf Pirates were in the area as early as 1613 according to Cults of Prax.  According to tales #10, they were originally led by Orstando Blackwoldf who led them to the Three Steps in the previous decade.  

Edited August 2, 2022 by metcalph

[JRE]

I thought the Glorantha sourcebook was canon. This is his entry among Argrath companions:

Quote

Goldgotti: This Issaries priest from Nochet is the scion of one of the Merchant Princes of Maniria. Through bribes, promises, and brute force, Goldgotti gained a dominant position in the caravans traveling between Karse and Sartar, only to lose that dominance with the Lunar conquest in Heortland. With the rebellion of King Broyan, he became a war entrepreneur, raising and supplying mercenaries against the Empire, first for King Broyan, later for Queen Samastina, and lately for Prince Argrath. He is widely believed to be the richest non-ruler in Dragon Pass.

That is not fully imcompatible with him being a Wolf Pirate, but I think a ruthless Trader Prince is enough...

[Joerg]

Gold-Gotti is weirdly absent from the (Avalon Hill edition) battalia listing of the Dragon Pass game, although his counter (superior infantry) is in the game. The history section of the board game names him as a merchant prince (p.31 of the AH edition of the rules).

My IMG-YGWV solution is to have two such characters, with similar names, or rather three if you include the Sartarite bandit Golgotti Guildersnatcher, Issaries initiate, from Borderlands.

 

11 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The Wolf Pirates were not a presence in the Mirrorsea until Harrek destroyed the Holy Country fleet in 1616. 

That is semi-correct.

The Wolf Pirates arrived in the Holy Country in 1605, with massive raids on the islands and less massive but still devastating raids on coastal regions, capturing serfs for their new colony on the Three Step Isles, roughly doubling their population after the migration from Ygg's Isles. (Two other such colonies were founded, on Ginorth off Kanthor's Forest in Seshnela, and on Gothalos (near Aurelion's Breakwater) in northern Jrustela.)

The defeat of Belintar's navy in 1616 gave the Wolf Pirates enough space for some crews/captains to dominate hamlets and to establish coves in the County of the Isles, and possibly elsewhere.
 

The question remains when Gold Gotti the Wolf Pirate arrived on the Threestep Isles. (Until I find a better solution, I write the pirate without the hyphen, and the trader prince with the hyphen.)

Give his birth date of 1575, he may well have been among the first wave of wolf pirates arriving at the Threestep Isles, rather than among the second or third wave of Yggites Harrek brought in 1617 after his raid of Sog City and receiving his "Ormen Lange" equivalent from the Yggites.

 

The Armies and Enemies document would then have contradicted the description in WBRM. Now those descriptions had some flaws, but aren't exactly off canon.

Baron Sanuel is another such name with multiple published interpretations. We have maps showing Baron Sanuel's Land near Smithstone.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Joerg

[Darius West]

On 7/30/2022 at 10:57 PM, Erol of Backford said:

? How would his wealth compare to that of Gringle?

I don't think Gringle is in the same league as Gold-Gotti.  Gold-Gotti is able to finance an entire regiment as well as running the finances for Argrath in the longer term. 

[Erol of Backford]

I totally agree with you Mr. West but I thought Gringle was paying taxes for all the surrounding clans? How much would that have been? Not the same league, no.

[davecake]

On 7/30/2022 at 9:33 PM, Jeff said:

The description of Gold-Gotti from Barbarian Adventures is wildly non-canonical for RQ

What about his description from the Glorantha Sourcebook? Is that also wildly non-canonical? 
 

[jajagappa]

10 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I thought Gringle was paying taxes for all the surrounding clans? How much would that have been? Not the same league, no.

He's not "paying taxes" - he's the poor chap that the Lunars designated as "tribute collector".  I.e. if he wants to live, he's got to go to each of the Colymar clans and collect their now higher tribute payments and ensure delivery to the right Lunar admins.

[Erol of Backford]

I read somewhere he was paying part of their tax out of his own pocket. It'd take me forever to find it...

[jajagappa]

4 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

I read somewhere he was paying part of their tax out of his own pocket. It'd take me forever to find it...

Well, if the clans won't pay up (and he does want to keep in good stead with his friends), and the alternative is for the Lunars to take his head as tribute... well, you might sacrifice some of your own wealth.

[JRE]

Maybe that is how Gringle himself is selling it to the Colymar, but normally how ancient empires handled taxes was that they auctioned the right to collect taxes, and then the one who wins the auction pay the agreed amount (and more importantly, has to raise an estimate for extraordinary taxes introduced after the auction), and then try to bleed the area for all they can. They subcontract this down in the same way...

So probably some Lunar Heartland insider or a friend of Pharandros got the Sartar tax auction, and then they parceled out different areas to local businessmen for a fixed amount of money. It would be possible, with the right contacts among the occupation forces, the tax auction winner can use violence against any subcontracted partner that comes short.

Which is why in the New Testament tax collector is the lowest of the low occupations, and a smart way to misdirect tax rage from the rulers to the tax men. Also the typical first sign of a revolt, murder of tax collectors. 

I am sure a smart guy like Fazzur will keep himself as far from the hated tax people as possible. 

I can see Goldgotti as Argrath's tax man, and using all means fine or foul to pay the tax estimate to Argrath and then skim all the extra he can get. 

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, JRE said:

So probably some Lunar Heartland insider or a friend of Pharandros got the Sartar tax auction, and then they parceled out different areas to local businessmen for a fixed amount of money. It would be possible, with the right contacts among the occupation forces, the tax auction winner can use violence against any subcontracted partner that comes short.

In my game this is the Lunar who builds and occupies the Lunar slave farm along the Nymie River.  (Overovash in my game)

[JRE]

I hate to be insistent, but as I suppose most of Chaosium were busy at Gencon, I ask again, is the Glorantha Sourcebook description of Goldgotti superseded by the Wolf pirate description?

Quote

Goldgotti: This Issaries priest from Nochet is the scion of one of the Merchant Princes of Maniria. Through bribes, promises, and brute force, Goldgotti gained a dominant position in the caravans traveling between Karse and Sartar, only to lose that dominance with the Lunar conquest in Heortland. With the rebellion of King Broyan, he became a war entrepreneur, raising and supplying mercenaries against the Empire, first for King Broyan, later for Queen Samastina, and lately for Prince Argrath. He is widely believed to be the richest non-ruler in Dragon Pass.

vs

On 7/30/2022 at 3:33 PM, Jeff said:

The description of Gold-Gotti from Barbarian Adventures is wildly non-canonical for RQ. Here's his short description:

Gold Gotti was born in the Ygg’s Islands around 1575 and has sailed with the Wolf Pirates his entire life. He is an avaricious but very competent leader, pragmatic and amoral. He's gone from being a poverty-stricken villager to a rich and powerful pirate warlord. He is among the most important captains in the Wolf Pirate fleet, and stands second only to Gunda in Harrek’s estimation.

 

[Jeff]

10 hours ago, JRE said:

I hate to be insistent, but as I suppose most of Chaosium were busy at Gencon, I ask again, is the Glorantha Sourcebook description of Goldgotti superseded by the Wolf pirate description?

vs

 

Yes. That Sourcebook section was written by me around 2014, maybe even earlier. It didn't quite sit right with me but Greg was fine with it, although he thought it didn't mesh with his original idea of the character - which he had written up around 1978 or so. Sadly that material, like so much of his late 1970s and early 1980s material, was presumed lost forever. So I ran with it, even though it didn't feel right. 

Flash forward a few years. A kindly benefactor found and returned Greg's lost notes. In there were detailed descriptions of every unit for WBRM, and Greg's descriptions of many minor figures, as well as troves of Gloranthan gold. Greg and I talked, and agreed Goldgotti should be what he was intended to be - a very successful Wolf Pirate (it also gave the game a unit of Wolf Pirates in addition to Harrek and Gunda). And so there it is. 

[soltakss]

16 hours ago, Jeff said:

Flash forward a few years. A kindly benefactor found and returned Greg's lost notes. In there were detailed descriptions of every unit for WBRM, and Greg's descriptions of many minor figures, as well as troves of Gloranthan gold. Greg and I talked, and agreed Goldgotti should be what he was intended to be - a very successful Wolf Pirate (it also gave the game a unit of Wolf Pirates in addition to Harrek and Gunda). And so there it is. 

And if people get confused by the two descriptions and want to make them work together, just assume that Goldgotti started in Esrolia, then became even richer as a Wolf Pirate and returned, ignoring the bit about him being born among the Wolf Pirates.

 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

And if people get confused by the two descriptions and want to make them work together, just assume that Goldgotti started in Esrolia, then became even richer as a Wolf Pirate and returned, ignoring the bit about him being born among the Wolf Pirates.

Or that Gold-Gotti the Wolf Pirate at some point intersected with an unscrupulous merchant from Esrolia, perhaps a Goldentongue of Issaries, and later documents confused the two together.

[David Scott]

Likewise Gotti maybe a common name, and gold is likely a common merchant moniker as in Goldentongue Gotti. Likewise mix it up with pirate naming conventions: Gold Beard Gotti, or Long Gotti Gold.

[metcalph]

9 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Likewise Gotti maybe a common name, and gold is likely a common merchant moniker as in Goldentongue Gotti. Likewise mix it up with pirate naming conventions: Gold Beard Gotti, or Long Gotti Gold.

FWIW there is a Golgotti Guildersnatcher in Borderlands (p155 kickstarter classic edition)

[JRE]

19 hours ago, Jeff said:

Yes. That Sourcebook section was written by me around 2014, maybe even earlier. It didn't quite sit right with me but Greg was fine with it, although he thought it didn't mesh with his original idea of the character - which he had written up around 1978 or so. Sadly that material, like so much of his late 1970s and early 1980s material, was presumed lost forever. So I ran with it, even though it didn't feel right. 

Flash forward a few years. A kindly benefactor found and returned Greg's lost notes. In there were detailed descriptions of every unit for WBRM, and Greg's descriptions of many minor figures, as well as troves of Gloranthan gold. Greg and I talked, and agreed Goldgotti should be what he was intended to be - a very successful Wolf Pirate (it also gave the game a unit of Wolf Pirates in addition to Harrek and Gunda). And so there it is. 

The reasoning is clear, yet it also shows one of the alienating aspects of the Gloranthan worldbuilding, when such a note replaces the text in a work defined as Canon and published in 2018. So any work can be considered no longer official, while the typical gamer will have no idea of what happens or why.

Goldgotti is not such an important individual, so probably only a few games will feature him, though they surely will be using the Sourcebook version. But it is the reasoning behind what bothers me.

One of the things I really liked in this reboot of Glorantha is that you really did not need to go hunting old sources (though I still like doing it), as there is a solid rock foundation in the Guide to Glorantha and the Gloranthan sourcebook. Now a small crack has appeared in that foundation, and for a reason that honestly I find weak, as a work in print should trump an unpublished note, at least while it remains official.