Puberty rites for Both and Neither?

[David Scott]

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

You don't hear about intersex fish for example

https://www.usgs.gov/centers/chesapeake-bay-activities/science/intersex-fish

and many others...

Edited August 6, 2022 by David Scott

[moonwolf8]

Thank you David Scott.  As I mentioned over in the Your Dumbest Theory thread I view Glorantha as a Post-Singularity world with lots of environmental contamination.  I'm estimating 6% of the population being intersex Neither, with another 14% being Baedell Both.  

While I agree that those who lean toward the None gender will generally move toward Shamanism there is also the possibility of Mysticism.  Back in Hero Wars: Roleplaying in Glorantha under non-Eastern Mystics page 218 it mentions Tarumathic Orlanthi.  For some reason I have always viewed Tarumath as a storm dragon.  Being a fan of That Time I got Reincarnated as a Slime I think I will have the Neither sexed encounter Tarumath the storm dragon sealed away in a cave.  

[Akhôrahil]

12 minutes ago, moonwolf8 said:

For some reason I have always viewed Tarumath as a storm dragon.  

That's an interesting angle. I tend to see him as an understanding of a Unified Orlanth (or perhaps even unified Storm Gods - it's "Tar-Umath", after all) derived through Nysaloreanism. 

[Joerg]

IMG the Orlanthi are pragmatic. If the body is able to bear children, it's the Ernaldan puberty rite, in the other cases it's running with the wild boys. Thus femalle and herm sex will undergo Ernaldan puberty rites, everybody else will get the Uncles, and probably the Star Heart. Vingans and male-leaning herms undergo the Orlanth rites, too. Nandan boys and neuters undergo a different Ernaldan introduction, not so much an initiation - and yes, this is somewhat unfair.

The Uncles and the Star Heart are not an automatic initiation to the Orlanth cult. Possibly up to one third of the wild boys participants may choose not to start cultic initiation with Orlanth, with Daka Fal probably taking a major portion of these, and the specialist cults a lot of the rest (including Nandan or Ernalda lite/grain goddesses/Eiritha without wearing women's clothing).

[hipsterinspace]

I think it's implied here that Vasana had her adulthood rites with the women (given that she's younger than the others), but that because she found Vinga she goes with the rest of the boys to learn how to actually be an adult:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/websites/facebook/runequest-on-facebook-july-2021-highlights/#ib-toc-anchor-29

If you are intent on leaning really hard on the Orlanth/Ernalda male/female bimodality, it's probably most straightforward to just presume that kids go into one of the two typical initiations based on their primary and secondary sex characteristics, but that the gods show them another way. They are placed on a path unlike that of their peers and continue on that path afterwards into their adulthood. Perhaps, like Vasana doing I Fought, We Won in her adulthood rites, someone destined for Nandan may find their place acting as Ernalda in the underworld and facing her terrible aunt to get what's needed to feed the tribe (or some other Ernaldan feat) instead of facing the trials of the uncles and finding their star heart.

I'd imagine most people who are both-fertile are probably more often that way as a result of powerful magic rather than as a (mundane) consequence of their birth, so it's probably wrong to describe that phenomenon using a medical or scientific account. I'd hesitate to use Androgeus to represent those people—or for much of anything positive more broadly—given the intensely negative and malign (even apocalyptic) connotations around their children and the events that have transpired around them.

[Rob Darvall]

11 hours ago, Eff said:

... you might refer to as the "inner" and "outer" routes.

Or possibly "deeper" and "shallower", maybe even literally.

[Rob Darvall]

5 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

... it's probably most straightforward to just presume that kids go into one of the two typical initiations based on their primary and secondary sex characteristics, but that the gods show them another way...

This. With mythic transformation being possible later in life too.
Folk do the best they can with the data available and the gods deal with the "misjudgements" the mortals make. Not least because there's gaming potential in the conflict.
That said there WILL be folk who are obviously not suited to one initiation or other (or both) from a very early age. 

[Darius West]

15 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Greg was explicit that this doesn't happen, though. That adulthood rites are about sex, not gender. 

Hmm... This makes the neuter sex somewhat problematic.  Obviously they can enter physical maturity, but not sexual maturity.  We also haven't quite established what the neuter sex actually means to Heortlings.  There are no deities within the pantheon that are identifiably neuter afaik who would oversee such rites.  As such, we have 2 questions to ask:

1.  What do Heortlings qualify as a neuter person?  (a) To whom does this extend?  (b) To whom might it extend, but in fact does not?

2.  Which deity oversees the rites for neuter people in Heortling society?

[Darius West]

15 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This does not answer the original poster's question though, as those issues are about sex. I would expect that "Nones" are overwhelmingly eunuchs, which isn't normally going to happen to the youngsters in Orlanthi society?

Agreed.  The numbers of eunuchs in Orlanthi society is likely to be low, even in places where Maran Gor and Barbeester Gor are popular.  On the other hand, what about people who are born with an obvious sex, but who feel no interest in sex?  Or people who are determined to be infertile?  Or people whose sex organs are obviously too malformed at birth to function?  There are likely a number of other such categories and exceptions, and if the Heortlings are going to have a neuter sex, then it is likely going to need to be a larger rather than smaller as a category in order to be socially useful in the language imo.

[radmonger]

3 minutes ago, Darius West said:

1.  What do Heortlings qualify as a neuter person? 

 

Most other elder races, e.g. trolls, are gendered. In most places,  they would not normally be allowed in the clan. But if they were, everyone would know which role they would take in a marriage ceremony. While a dark troll male wouldn't be naturally fertile with a human wife, sufficient birthing magic might in principle change that.

Orlanthi might well assume Mostali are sex-neutral, though technically they would be wrong about clay dwarves. So the most significant entry on the list is going to be dragonewts. 

Given the Orlanthi history with  the EWF, this likely has implications. For a human to follow a draconic path to the degree of completely negating the possibility of marriage, children or sex perhaps used to be an option. If any clans do currently practice that, I suspect they would do so in secret.

 

 

 

[radmonger]

25 minutes ago, Darius West said:

The numbers of eunuchs in Orlanthi society is likely to be low, even in places where Maran Gor and Barbeester Gor are popular.

One thing about eunuchs is that Heal Wound can regenerate a limb. And that isn't the pinnacle of healing magic in principle available. 

So any form of infertility is going to be either spiritual or economic in nature. Either noone wants to spend the RP on you, or if they did it would simply heal you to back to how you already are[1].

 

[1] Like the healing nanobots from that one episode of Doctor Who that had a very specific template for what a human was.

[hipsterinspace]

 

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

1.  What do Heortlings qualify as a neuter person?  (a) To whom does this extend?  (b) To whom might it extend, but in fact does not?

2.  Which deity oversees the rites for neuter people in Heortling society?

I think it’s important to distinguish very clearly between people who identify as the neuter gender versus people who are incapable of sexual reproduction. There are plenty of historical examples of eunuchs who clearly still identified as men and would not have considered themselves to be socially a category apart despite their inability to reproduce (which is also why I think it’s also helpful to semantically distinguish male fertile/sexed from “man” or perhaps more clearly “orlanthi gendered”). Those people still fall broadly into the bimodality of the Orlanth-Ernalda social complex, but in cases far outside of the 85% “all” there might be a different rite or ceremony to be called upon, be it with the shamans or an unusual cult.

When it comes to the neuter gender role that’s a more complicated issue, and perhaps intentionally lacking a singular figure as a representative. In some cases I’d think a person might be called to Humakt, in other cases Eurmal, probably rather often they’re called to shamanic pursuits, there are a lot of possible answers. Those who occupy that sixth gender role don’t seem to be implied to be infertile, I’d imagine that the majority of them are just outside of socially established gender categories rather than being reproductively sterile.

47 minutes ago, radmonger said:

So any form of infertility is going to be either spiritual or economic in nature. Either noone wants to spend the RP on you, or if they did it would simply heal you to back to how you already are.

The rune spell Waste Loins in the Red Book presents a clear example of how that might transpire.

Edited August 7, 2022 by hipsterinspace

[Joerg]

Neuters aren't barred from sexuality, just from reproductive sex.

Opera eunuchs were quite the rage as they promised safe extramarital affairs.

 

But yes, what is the stance about loss of reproductive sexuality by trauma?

Edited August 7, 2022 by Joerg

[French Desperate WindChild]

my opinion, without a lot of irl knowledge, without a lot of gloranthan lore too) :

 

their are two times of initiation for everyone, in the standard orlanthi path (maybe different elsewhere)

a) adulthood

b) cult initiation

Adutlhood rites are done when young people show their "sexual ability" :

  blood for -sex-woman,

beard ? nocturnal pollution (don't know if it means like in french, but you can imagine what happen to a boy during the sleep)  ? for -sex-man

what could happen for a "both" ? both blood and beard ? or maybe the first then initiation.

what could happen for a "neuter" ? nothing of course.

this "neuter" could be physically there has been nothing to see since the birth OR even if there is "something", there is no proof of adulthood (no blood, no beard, no ... ) and at a time... 16 ? 18 ?  20 years old ? elders consider that if you are not man, woman, and both then you are neuter.

 

so for the sex-female and sex-both-first-female, they will meet the women and ancestors, among them or first of them, Ernalda. There they will understand / hear the call of their probable god-dess. Maybe they will understand, if not yet discovered,  they are vingan or other gender, and they will follow the vingan path or helera path.

Same for the sex-male, and sex-both-first-male, they will meet the men and ancestors, among them or first of them, Orlanth. There they will understand / hear the call of their probable god-dess. Maybe they will understand, if not yet discovered, they are nandan or other gender, and they will follow the nandan path or heler path.

 

At the end of the adulthood rituals, the new adults will discuss with their elders (mundane) and tell them what they have experienced. Then they will be teach in the cult they think they are called.

One year later (or maybe more, depending on the cult), they will try to be initiate to their "first" god-dess. A lot will succeed, some will die, some will be rejected and will have to choose another one.

 

 

then what about the non adult (after all some may fail there adulthood initiation), like "neuter" gender ? Maybe they will not be initiate, maybe they will have to choose by themselves their cult (and be accepted by it) Maybe (seems to me a perfect "way") they will become shaman (as for example a neuter gender may dream about the horned man at the same time that their friends "becom" adults)

this initiation will demonstrate they are adult too, maybe cursed, maybe blessed, of course different

 

[Baron Wulfraed]

5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

beard ? nocturnal pollution (don't know if it means like in french, but you can imagine what happen to a boy during the sleep)  ?

"Nocturnal Emission"

 

[JRE]

If we consider that Orlanthi are still humans, we will have the eternal conflict between what the parents want and what the tenagers want. Most parents/close family will want their kids to follow their steps, unless they seem gifted for some reason, which may mean a rise in status. In some clans getting a child in Humakt mat be seen like a loss, in others it may be a honor. An Issaries trader who wants his kid to succeed her, may send the kid to an Issaries temple before initiation, to make sure she follows Issaries. And she may not care what sex the kid is, as Issaries does not care either.

The family should know, even if it is not yet formalized, probably what sex the kids are, even if the chosen gender may be a source of conflict within the family. The sex will limit IMG what cults you may join, but among the rest, it will be your chosen gender what indicates the preferred cults. I would expect that some "none" sex are made to wait for initiation, as they will be treated as a kid and they may be "late developing". But in a magic place like Glorantha others will have noticed them and may be proposing occupations for them. Unless there is an excess of candidates, there are certain cult callings that may be difficult to fill, and some cults that may be suitable for certain sexes. We already know about Heler, but I am not sure all Orlanthi clans can support a Heler shrine. Other marginal but necessary cults, such as Kolat or Daka Fal spirit talkers will probably take those that do not fit anywhere else, and the clan itself may direct such candidates in that direction. I also expect they do not share the same initiation as the rest, as that may interfere with their later "neutral" roles, if they go through initiation in Orlanth's or Ernalda's path. Local traditions will vary among clans, so one may take "both" preferently, while their neighbours do the same with "none", and a third one forbids them from the way of the spirit. 

I expect that all the weird young (not only by sex, but also by inclination), that I expect there will be only a few every year, except if a magical event affects the clan, will be kept apart from the clan Orlanth and Ernalda initiation. Some may be initiated by the marginal cults, as mentioned above but also other cults like Foundchild, or full Yinkin initiation. Most of the rest will be taken to a town or the tribal temples, for valuable but rare cults. At that point most candidates for Lhankor Mhy, Humakt, Issaries or Chalana Arroy will have been identified. Some clans will do some kind of abbreviated adulthood ritual before sending them to a temple. Some will rebel, and I would expect that among the orlanthi you may always take the "normal" initiation, despite what your family or your own inclinations would indicate. There is always a place in Orlanth and Ernalda. Other clans will refrain from adulthood, and wait to see if they return still as children (if not accepted) or as adults, and then there will be another adulthood ceremony, similar to the one to adopt new members in the clan, to welcome them back. If children, they will have to wait for the next initiation event.

Some clans may have specialty cults. Some will have Heleri, and they will take also suitable candidates from the neighbouring clans. Something similar may happen with cults like Uleria, or Odayla, or other accepted but minority cults. I would expect most families know you cannot refuse a clear divine call, though some will still try. Due to the recent conflicts, Vinga is probably a frequent path for girls in Sartar. Nandan will be less frequent, but still known. Some clans will have them join the Ernaldan path, others will hold tribal specific rites, to make sure there are enough candidates.

However most of the "Both" and "None" categories will still join Orlanth and Ernalda. Both get to choose, though some priests or priestesses may disallow this, though normally "Both" can get further than "None", as some secrets will be sexual and they cannot join. But they can still join like all the others. Because at the end of the day the Cults are human creations run by humans, so there can be prejudice, doctrinal difference or pure stubbornness. And some teenagers will always be contrarians, so they will take any path but the expected one. Orlanthi culture is quite flexible, but they are still humans, so there will be people initiating in the wrong cults for the wrong reasons.

[soltakss]

On 8/6/2022 at 5:04 AM, moonwolf8 said:

Has anyone come up with Puberty rites for these other two sexes? If so, what were your sources of inspiration?

I haven't because it is a rare occurrence.

There are many possibilities, not all covered below:

• The Clan Ring performs a particular Initiation Rite for them
• They can undergo the standard male/female rites, but can also attend the corresponding rites, revealing their physical nature when challenged
• They can choose which rites to participate in
• They are barred from participating in Initiation Rites and have to go elsewhere

 

 

[PhilHibbs]

Children born "both" or "neither" are probably going to have a hard time. If other omens are good, then they might be hailed as something special and precious when they are born. But as soon as anything odd or dodgy happens around them, someone will blame them for it. They're going to have to be really lucky to get through childhood without being thrown out of the clan for some misdeed or even some misfortune that was nothing to do with them.

So I think that the subject of initiation rites is going to be even more rare than the birth of a truly "none" or "both" baby.

There are plenty of myths and stories of children cast out or abandoned going on to be raised by animals, strangers, or faerie folk. And if they aren't thrown out, but the community instead ostracizes their accusers for being closed-minded bigots, then there's an arch-nemesis story seed in that as well.

[Lordabdul]

On 8/5/2022 at 9:04 PM, moonwolf8 said:

I'm reading my copy of Six Seasons in Sartar and it suddenly occurred to me what are the puberty rites for the Both and Neither sexes?

I can't speak about the whole sex and gender stuff because I don't know anything about it, but I can speak about the Gloranthan and game design aspects.

The initiation rites in SSiS are taken directly from Greg's writings (here and here), but I remember some post where Greg and/or Jeff said that these were merely common examples of Orlanthi adulthood rites. So different tribes might do things differently, and that's potentially more true outside of Sartar, with Orlanthi clans in Lunar Provinces or in Maniria or whatever.

I also wouldn't trust that Greg's old writings used "sex" and "gender" in a strictly "correct" and consistent way, so whether these rites are "per-gender" or "per-sex" or whatever is, IMHO, undetermined. Jeff's most recent note on the matter can certainly be read as either "gender-based" or even "co-ed":

Quote

When she was 13, Vasana daughter of Farnan was initiated according to the tribal traditions of the Colymar. She was chosen by Vinga and pressed on to I Fought We Won. She was welcomed as a “young man” by her community and was sent to the Starfire Ridges along with some 300 other young men from the local clans. They were given a cloak, a broad-brimmed hat, and weapons.

Quote

When she was 13 years old, Yanioth went through her clan initiation rites. Afterwards, she was given, as is traditional for young women of her Ernaldoring clan, to the Clearwine Earth Temple for two years of training and apprenticehood.

It also depends on the game design aspects of it. Are you looking for new rites as a basis for something an NPC experienced, or as the basis for something a player character will experience in play? If the latter, it would depend a lot on how you're going to play it -- for instance, whether you intend to have one-on-one game sessions with each player, or if you're going to play the adulthood initiations as a group. Some players might not find it very interesting to go through a predetermined series of steps like in SSiS and for those you would have to loosen things up a bit. Other players might not want to sit and wait for the other PCs to do their thing, so you could simply rule that their tribe has co-ed adulthood initiations, even if each PC might experience things differently inside the myths. Other players don't want to improvise and come up with stuff so you would indeed need to prepare some initiation stages to go through. But my point here is that gameplay consideration shouldn't be put aside for "mythical gloranthan correctness" or whatever.

[JRE]

I fully agree with you. In fact I do the players flesh up the details (or not, if they do not feel like doing it), as each clan will do things differently. I think it is better to have the players participate and decide if their players had a happy ceremony, if they are scarred by some parts of it, if they were part of a mixed group, or if they had a singular initiation, which would be usual for small cults or very promising candidates (and we already know they are hero material).

As I do not do community games so far, the characters do not share background, except for the near past (a Nochet privileged Issaries brat and a Duckpoint refugee, bitterly joining Humakt). No Passions in common, as only the Duck has Hate Lunars (and Hate Colymar as well) and for both players their cult is the main force. 

[Darius West]

On 8/7/2022 at 7:56 PM, radmonger said:

One thing about eunuchs is that Heal Wound can regenerate a limb. And that isn't the pinnacle of healing magic in principle available. 

So any form of infertility is going to be either spiritual or economic in nature. Either noone wants to spend the RP on you, or if they did it would simply heal you to back to how you already are[1].

 

[1] Like the healing nanobots from that one episode of Doctor Who that had a very specific template for what a human was.

This is a really good point.  The fact is, Chalana Arroy can give you a new set of testes, so what then becomes the neuter gender?

On 8/7/2022 at 8:44 PM, hipsterinspace said:

I think it’s important to distinguish very clearly between people who identify as the neuter gender versus people who are incapable of sexual reproduction. There are plenty of historical examples of eunuchs who clearly still identified as men and would not have considered themselves to be socially a category apart despite their inability to reproduce (which is also why I think it’s also helpful to semantically distinguish male fertile/sexed from “man” or perhaps more clearly “orlanthi gendered”). Those people still fall broadly into the bimodality of the Orlanth-Ernalda social complex, but in cases far outside of the 85% “all” there might be a different rite or ceremony to be called upon, be it with the shamans or an unusual cult.

This is another good point that begs the question of how Orlanthi culture decides what is neuter.  There aren't too many female eunuchs, after all.🤔😉😅

Your point about trickster shamans is a point well made too.

It occurs to me that maybe the Orlanthi neuter sex might primarily apply to species other than humans that have an actual neuter gender like dragonewts.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Darius West

[JRE]

I would consider that neuter is anyone without a sex drive. As I think we agree Glorantha has mostly happy sex (and unhappy sex may have much worse consequences than in the RW), rather than conforming as it happens often on Earth, I think people will highlight their non-availability. It is also magically important, as it may be dangerous for all if you have an unwilling participant in a fertility rite, and that may also make you an inappropiate choice for many ceremonies and some cults, so it is better if they are identified to avoid having magical backlash. In the openly sexual Gloranthan cultures, signaling your non-sexuality becomes important.

They are also great minders for the children and specially uninitiated teenagers, so the rest of the people may have fun, but I am sure there are also some particular ceremonies and ritual roles that are well suited for them. So it is not all being left outside while others have fun, though I suspect there is still a lot of that, too. 

IMG that is usually a sign of strong Death affinity, this lack of fertility, including desire, so they have a clear cultic pathway open, but I am aware that is not a general opinion. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

This is a really good point.  The fact is, Chalana Arroy can give you a new set of testes, so what then becomes the neuter gender?

new set yes IF there was a old set. In my opinion, Chalana Arroy cannot add you something, she is a healer not a maker

[PhilHibbs]

On 8/7/2022 at 10:56 AM, radmonger said:

One thing about eunuchs is that Heal Wound can regenerate a limb.

It's not a limb.

On 8/7/2022 at 10:56 AM, radmonger said:

And that isn't the pinnacle of healing magic in principle available.

This would need specialist magic, IMO.

[Squaredeal Sten]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

It's not a limb.

This would need specialist magic, IMO.

Have you never heard the phrase "third leg"?