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Children during Sacred Time


Cassius

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I wonder what children do during Sacred Time in a typical Sartarite clan. Are they allowed to participate to the rituals ? Are they spectators, outside of the sacred area ? Do they stay "at home", the elders taking care of the younger ?

I would be surprised children were allowed to participate to the re-enactment of Myths. Can they even give magic points to the community ? (Do they even have magic points ?)

 

I read this thread and found it very useful about what happens during Sacred Time, the meaning of this season in the Gloranthan year, the rituals and the ceremonies performed day by day. In this thread, @Bohemond makes a wonderful suggestion related to children :

Quote

Many clans hold a special Voria Hunt on Day 1 to commemorate Voria's appearance on Flower Day--so the children search for toys and sweets and the first child to find where the Voria Priestess is hiding (or the clan's carved Voria Flower treasure) is the Spring Child and plays a role in the Sea Season ceremonies that year.

 

I ask this question because I want to tell my players the story of their childhood.

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33 minutes ago, Cassius said:

Are they allowed to participate to the rituals ? Are they spectators, outside of the sacred area ? Do they stay "at home", the elders taking care of the younger ?

There are undoubtedly events reflecting Sacred Time stories to entertain the children.  Possibly some are recruited for certain, select roles (e.g. Voria and Voriof).  But participation?  No, I think far, far too dangerous (both for successful completion of the rituals, and for dangers to them).  

Likely they are left in the clan halls or the like with elders or select guardians to watch over them.  

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Huddling down in the clan halls to get a kind of bunker view on some of the dangerous stuff, possibly changing "hiding places" between rites and ritual preparations, and yet providing valuable support by doing so. There may be minor "x protects the children" heroquests where some previous protector has to leave and another, not quite qualified protector needs to step in and deal with these dependents. The goal of these is to maintain the innocence of the group while the other stuff goes on.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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I think it depends on the particular rites.

Since a very large proportion of the community is only at Lay Member status (consider even the largest city, with multiple cults of the Storm pantheon... some are Orlanthi, some are Ernaldan, some are Gustbran, some are Yinkin, etc etc etc. Few would be initiates in more than one cult), and children are also Lay Members, they would have just as much right to see the rites as the adults. These rites are very open and public, and so the children will get to see them (and participate) just as much as most adults.*

The real secret, initiate level, rites are held out of view of most members of the cults, and this would include the children.

So, as an example of the above, the big Sacred Time rites of making the world whole again will have large public ceremonies that pack out the town square, full of singing, dancing, music, speeches, plays etc... and then the real initiates will go to their special place for a couple of the special things (behind curtains, into another room, maybe even on another plane).

Sure, there will be some times when the children are taken away to be taught the stories from a younger perspective, but I don't see that as really hiding them away. It's just another part of the village or town life.

(*See Smoking Ruins as a good example of this)

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9 hours ago, Cassius said:

I wonder what children do during Sacred Time in a typical Sartarite clan. Are they allowed to participate to the rituals ? Are they spectators, outside of the sacred area ? Do they stay "at home", the elders taking care of the younger ?

I would be surprised children were allowed to participate to the re-enactment of Myths. Can they even give magic points to the community ? (Do they even have magic points ?)

I read this thread and found it very useful about what happens during Sacred Time, the meaning of this season in the Gloranthan year, the rituals and the ceremonies performed day by day. In this thread, @Bohemond makes a wonderful suggestion related to children :

I ask this question because I want to tell my players the story of their childhood.

I think children become observers of the more public side of ceremonies, acting as de facto lay members.  Cults will likely be welcoming of children who want to observe the public performances as that might be all that is needed to encourage their future recruitment.  There are of course the child gods of Voria and Voriof, and Yelm the Youth and Teelo Norri and so forth.  I think the mythology is "suckled in mother's milk" in Glorantha, and from the moment you are born there are mysteries you become part of.  I think much like Christmas, there will be activities for children to participate in during Sacred Time.  Orlanth might offer Sylph rides.   Ernalda will offer sweet things to eat.  Issaries will trade for toys.  Lhankor Mhy will introduce educational games.  Chalana Arroy will run a petting zoo of injured animals.  There will be dances, songs, pretty ribbons and bunting, appeasing of spirits with offerings, animal rides, and so forth.

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I would assume most adults will be quite busy to really have a lot of activities for children. So I would have them circunscribed to specific areas, with a few minders, However they have a role as well, as they will be present when the quests are launched and when the questers return, as they are the reminder of why these things are done. That will also serve as an introduction to the myths, as once they wish farewell to the Storm brothers going to resue Heler, the minders will tell the story of what is happening, and they will be at hand to welcome the Storm brothers when they return, hopefully with the blue guy. They also get to see that sometimes things do not work and in some cases that there may be losses. 

Some areas of the settlement will be isolated, and that is where the very sick, the infirm, the children and their minders remain most of the time, except when they are playing the role of people or crowd. I would expect most of the minders will be teenagers close to initiation and a few elders, so telling the stories is also a good refresher for them. I also expect, however, that someone senior, a ring member in the case of the orlanthi, and a couple of guards will stay also with them. Not only as a supervisor, but also in case something goes terribly wrong with the ceremonies, as that may happen, and to think otherwise is foolish. Safeguarding the future.

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Just a bit from one of my stories with kids playing a minor role in a myth (where Ernalda and Yinkin go looking for Ernalda's run away daughter Kylera)

    Finally, Laikadessa found a wall segment with a little waterway breaking through under it, big enough for a small child to get under the wall.  “The Water Tribe has taken her!” she said frantically.

    The wall did not reply, but she now ran to Ivarnala (Mahome).  “Mahome, I need you to watch over the rest of my children!”

    A force of some 22 kids, probably overdoing it, now came out of the darkness.

    For a moment, Ivarnala looked overwhelmed, then she said, “Of course, Ernalda.  I will keep them safe and not let them eat all the cookies.”

    Now the kids were angry but couldn’t do anything about it.

 

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2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Orlanth might offer Sylph rides.   Ernalda will offer sweet things to eat.  Issaries will trade for toys.  Lhankor Mhy will introduce educational games.  Chalana Arroy will run a petting zoo of injured animals.  There will be dances, songs, pretty ribbons and bunting, appeasing of spirits with offerings, animal rides, and so forth.

Sylph rides... 😛

"ooooh, mum... not Lhankor Mhy again.... we played his games last year... they're boring!"

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Thank you all for these rich and diverse suggestions!


For the moment, I get the following ideas:

  • Children should only participate in certain celebrations of Sacred Time, those that are safe for the participants, and in particular those that open and close a cycle. For example, the departure and return of the Lightbringers.
  • There are activities for children which allow them, often in the form of a game, to learn about and honour the gods, both those who protect the clan and those who are hostile to it.
  • Among the children, a distinction can undoubtedly be made between those who are older and close to the time of their initiation into adulthood, and those who are younger. The former, in preparation for their initiation, may participate in certain rituals that were forbidden to them in previous years.
  • Most often, the children are grouped together under the supervision of a few minders who tell them what is going on that they cannot see and who supervise the day's 'games


It would be interesting to 'build' an orlanthi myth about how, during the Great Darkness for example, Grandfather or Grandmother or the Good Warrior kept the children close to the hearth and occupied them while outside the Enemies threatened all life. This would allow the minders to participate in the Sacred Time in the same way as other adults, even if they did not take part in the rituals performed in the sacred area.

Perhaps such myth already exists.

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an idea in addition.

As children are not yet initiate (well except... the exception) they are not planned as individual actors of an adult ritual. (Maybe thing like Voria as already said, would propose some nice and soft role)

However one or two children may trigger an involuntary heroquest during the sacred time. Something dangerous for them or not, but something where they must act  as child gods in a simple (yinkin is projected by orlanth, few stations) or a complex quest (no idea what kind of quest) involving only themselves or all the clan

after all, sacred time is a period when everything falter

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14 hours ago, Cassius said:

I wonder ..... Can they even give magic points to the community ? (Do they even have  magic points?... @Bohemond 

As I read it, since they have spirits they have magic points. 

But they may not know how to Worship, depending on age and training, and will not be asked to give MPs to the gods.  In season the Voria rites are how children are first taught to Worship.

 

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1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

However one or two children may trigger an involuntary heroquest during the sacred time. Something dangerous for them or not, but something where they must act  as child gods in a simple (yinkin is projected by orlanth, few stations) or a complex quest (no idea what kind of quest) involving only themselves or all the clan

after all, sacred time is a period when everything falter

My idea is that the clan would prefer to minimize this, which is why the children, and specially the uninitiated teens that may already know too much about myths, are kept under surveillance. The senior people will have to react fast to deactivate any spontaneous heroquesting, and that is certainly a risk in the Sacred Time. 

Games like Voriof chasing the sheep (Hide and seek) or Bandits and Housecarls (I think the Lunar Occupation is too recent for it to become a game yet) may be also controlled, as they may initiate such a heroquest. 

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9 hours ago, JRE said:

.....

Games like Voriof chasing the sheep (Hide and seek) or Bandits and Housecarls (I think the Lunar Occupation is too recent for it to become a game yet) may be also controlled, as they may initiate such a heroquest. 

Your clan sure is strict.  When I was a kid EVERYONE played Bandits and Housecarls.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Earlier today I read an email from Biblical Archaeology Review about board games and knucklebones in Hellenistic Israel.  Apparently board games have been around for a very long time and in addition to entertainment were also used in divination.  "Secret Games of the Gods" by Nigel Pennick goes into more depth on the subject.  I suspect there are board games pulled out specifically for sacred time, or at least game tokens that are only used during sacred time.

I haven't attended any Pagan Fest events so I don't know where the children all go.  I have seen a Washington Post article about {Christian} attacks on Pagan festivals being on the uptake.  Which brings to mind Lunar attacks during Orlanthi festivals.

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26 minutes ago, moonwolf8 said:

Earlier today I read an email from Biblical Archaeology Review about board games and knucklebones in Hellenistic Israel.  Apparently board games have been around for a very long time and in addition to entertainment were also used in divination.  "Secret Games of the Gods" by Nigel Pennick goes into more depth on the subject.  I suspect there are board games pulled out specifically for sacred time, or at least game tokens that are only used during sacred time.

Thanks for the necromancy moonwolf8, this was a cool thread, let me join you and necro a thread I started on the same line as that thought of yours that I quote above...
If you are interested in this topic have a look waaaayyyyy back here at "

".

Edited by Bill the barbarian
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... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast!

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Doesn’t Elmal help take care of the stead while the grownups are off heroquesting? And maybe Barbeester Gore, guarding the stricken Earth?

That could be fun, Babs and Yelmalio trying to share a quiet afternoon. “Whose turn to change the nappy?”

Edited by EricW
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On 9/6/2022 at 3:54 AM, moonwolf8 said:

I haven't attended any Pagan Fest events so I don't know where the children all go. 

Depends on the group.

For some I've been part of, no kids at all. But then, that was the "secret initiation" stuff.

For others (eg, solstices and equinoxes), kids were most definitely allowed to watch or participate (depending on their age and whether they were having a tanty or not at the time). That's been for kids as young as 6.

However, if you take a look at the rites at Stonehenge every year, you don't see kids in the middle - it's all the elders (but then, again - only the initiated are in the inner circle.. everyone else is outside looking in).

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20 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Depends on the group.

For some I've been part of, no kids at all. But then, that was the "secret initiation" stuff.

For others (eg, solstices and equinoxes), kids were most definitely allowed to watch or participate (depending on their age and whether they were having a tanty or not at the time). That's been for kids as young as 6.

However, if you take a look at the rites at Stonehenge every year, you don't see kids in the middle - it's all the elders (but then, again - only the initiated are in the inner circle.. everyone else is outside looking in).

Stonehenge was an astronomical calculator, helped determine whether spring started or summer ended. 

https://blog.britishmuseum.org/here-comes-the-sun-stonehenge-and-the-summer-solstice/

Wicker man was more of a family event, where people went to see all the criminals roasted alive. “See Johnny if you don’t behave that could be you one day!”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicker_man

 

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1 hour ago, EricW said:

Stonehenge was an astronomical calculator, helped determine whether spring started or summer ended. 

https://blog.britishmuseum.org/here-comes-the-sun-stonehenge-and-the-summer-solstice/

Wicker man was more of a family event, where people went to see all the criminals roasted alive. “See Johnny if you don’t behave that could be you one day!”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicker_man

 

Ummm... ok. I'm not sure how you see those relating to my post.

While Stonehenge (and other henges around the world) may well be 'astronomical calenders', that in no way means there weren't pagan rites being held there. After all, the sun was seen as a deity...

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6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Ummm... ok. I'm not sure how you see those relating to my post.

While Stonehenge (and other henges around the world) may well be 'astronomical calenders', that in no way means there weren't pagan rites being held there. After all, the sun was seen as a deity...

The smoke would have interfered with the astronomical observations? 

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23 hours ago, EricW said:

Stonehenge was an astronomical calculator, helped determine whether spring started or summer ended. 

https://blog.britishmuseum.org/here-comes-the-sun-stonehenge-and-the-summer-solstice/

Per your own link, Stonehenge identified the lowest point of the sun in winter (~Dec 22 -- longest night), and the highest point of the sun in summer (~June 22 -- longest day). The "turn-around" points -- the sun is has started returning to us (we won't be lost in perpetual darkness), and the sun has started leaving us (we need to prepare for the return of darkness). Nothing related to determining spring (or fall) themselves. I don't believe they had any means of determining the equinoxes except by counting days between the solstices.

And then there is the matter of just when the seasons start! Modern usage tends assign the solstices and equinoxes as the starting date for the following season (which may account for "seasonal lag" in the weather -- warmest days in late July/August, etc.), but the ancients may have centered the seasons on the solstices/equinoxes. That makes Samhain closer to the start of winter, and (our) groundhog day closer to the end of winter (and hence the compromise: a prediction of 6 more weeks of winter basically puts the end of winter near the equinox, vs the "early spring" straddling the equinox)

 

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2 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Per your own link, Stonehenge identified the lowest point of the sun in winter (~Dec 22 -- longest night), and the highest point of the sun in summer (~June 22 -- longest day). The "turn-around" points -- the sun is has started returning to us (we won't be lost in perpetual darkness), and the sun has started leaving us (we need to prepare for the return of darkness). Nothing related to determining spring (or fall) themselves. I don't believe they had any means of determining the equinoxes except by counting days between the solstices.

And then there is the matter of just when the seasons start! Modern usage tends assign the solstices and equinoxes as the starting date for the following season (which may account for "seasonal lag" in the weather -- warmest days in late July/August, etc.), but the ancients may have centered the seasons on the solstices/equinoxes. That makes Samhain closer to the start of winter, and (our) groundhog day closer to the end of winter (and hence the compromise: a prediction of 6 more weeks of winter basically puts the end of winter near the equinox, vs the "early spring" straddling the equinox)

 

You only just barely mentioned the cross-quarters festivals, which in UK terms (particularly Irish/Welsh) would be (forgive the spellings! But, it's not English anyway) - Samhuin, Mabon, Lughnasad and Beltaine (which I personally celebrate around the 5th - 7th of each month, closer to the mid-point of the solstice & equinox).

Since we don't actually have any writings dating from that period to explain everything, we're guessing that they're celebrating "winter" or "spring", and so it's much more likely that they are celebrating "full return" and "start of return" of the sun. Calculating equinoxes is extremely simple, as you mentioned (so, I don't get the "had any means except counting".... It's not rock science**.

I also suspect that our terms for our four seasons wouldn't be particularly relevant to them.

 

Anyway, off topic! Other than to say that the major festivals that I've attended (solstices in particular) have children involved - especially Mabon (the youth), where children play a central role... however, there's always the private (full initiates of a tradition only), which doesn't even have the "lay member" adults... and even then, they were separated by the rank of initiation.

 

 

(**I do love that Lindsay Lohan quote 😃)

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