Hunting Cults and Missile Spells

[Rodney Dangerduck]

12 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

BoHM: "Odayla: God of Hunting in all its fashions: the chase
from horseback, the stalk with bow and arrow, the
stampede of herds over cliffs, the capture of great monsters
in pits or with humble traplines and deadfalls."

Good point.  Little of this seems to have made it to the RQG rules.

Edited November 19, 2022 by Rodney Dangerduck
Change "none" to "little"

[Akhôrahil]

4 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Good point.  Little of this seems to have made it to the RQG rules.

HW/HQ made the point that Orlanth hunters still come back to the stead every day or few, while Odaylans were "deep hunters", often gone for a season or longer. Mountain men and fur trappers, usually antisocial.

[metcalph]

46 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Odalya as a "Bear who happens to hunt" has to be the one of the least appealing Gloranthan god concepts.  

So people prefer worshipping Orlanth than Odayla.  I'm not seeing this as a problem.  Odaylans are anti-social types rather than good decent farmers.  The only thing that stops them having a bad reputation is the presence of Storm Bull. 

[Godlearner]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

The only thing that stops them having a bad reputation is the presence of Storm Bull. 

Storm Bull to Odayla: "Here. Hold my beer."

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

Odayla to Storm Bull: "Here. Hold my beer."

Odayla to Storm Bull: "Here. Hold my bear."

Edited November 19, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Shiningbrow]

10 hours ago, metcalph said:

The only thing that stops them having a bad reputation is the presence of Storm Bull. 

Eurmal to Stormbull and Odayla: "Here, hold my beer... bwahahahaha - I put glue on it!!!!"

[whitelaughter]

On 11/19/2022 at 10:57 PM, svensson said:

Most gods are not making their cults 'as strong as possible'.

p349: This lending of Rune Magic to mortals roughly equals one country giving one country arms and supplies with which to fight a war

 

Now I'll grant that that isn't exactly the same; we didn't keep supplying the Soviets after the fall of Berlin; but the functional goal is the same - give them the power to win as quickly and efficiently as possible.

[Soccercalle]

On 11/19/2022 at 1:16 PM, Akhôrahil said:

You should be able to pick up Odayla bow magic from a hero cult.

(BoHM p. 181.)

This actually seems to be a good way of giving Odayla initiates bow magic. If they make a "Kudran heroquest" they can get a Rune Spell. It can be one of the actual ones (probably not arrow trance as that is a war and not a hunting spell) but also a new one increasing the range. Maybe a spell where you use a ritual that for the price of 1 RP can make a quiver of arrows with 10x the range. It can be stacked for more quivers. (But remember that RP can't be restored as long as the spell is active).

[whitelaughter]

On 11/20/2022 at 4:53 AM, metcalph said:

Odaylans are anti-social types rather than good decent farmers.  The only thing that stops them having a bad reputation

possible, but having rune lords rather than priests means the cult is emphasizing CHA over POW.

The Odaylans are hit hard for training. They need to concentrate on STR to make the most of Bear's Strength. They need to concentrate on CHA to become Rune Lords. They need to develop and share a Martial Art to make Claws useful (presumably the reason they haven't yet is because they don't have time).

Given they only have 3+2 Rune spells, the obvious move is to make magical bling: put extension into the item, gain a +1 CHA instead of another Rune Point. Since becoming a Rune Master gains a +1 CHA, aim for Master Hunter while under the extended effect of a traded Charisma spell; then only need a CHA 17, as you'll have the needed CHA 18 when the spell wears off.

Perhaps though....you can lose/gain CHA by un/successful leadership. Maybe the purpose of the great hunt is to allow hunters to put their CHA on the line? Two potential Master Hunters with CHA 17 are in competition, the winner gains +1 CHA and the title of Master Hunter, the loser loses a point of CHA? Painful, but efficient. After all, it is a year until the next contest, the loser has time to recover the point and try again.

[Akhôrahil]

9 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

Given they only have 3+2 Rune spells, the obvious move is to make magical bling: put extension into the item, gain a +1 CHA instead of another Rune Point. Since becoming a Rune Master gains a +1 CHA, aim for Master Hunter while under the extended effect of a traded Charisma spell; then only need a CHA 17, as you'll have the needed CHA 18 when the spell wears off.

Perhaps though....you can lose/gain CHA by un/successful leadership. Maybe the purpose of the great hunt is to allow hunters to put their CHA on the line? Two potential Master Hunters with CHA 17 are in competition, the winner gains +1 CHA and the title of Master Hunter, the loser loses a point of CHA? Painful, but efficient. After all, it is a year until the next contest, the loser has time to recover the point and try again.

Pretty sure every requirement for cult advancement is about permanent ratings, for skills, characteristics, runes, and passions. Otherwise you could make weird bids like pushing the ratings up temporarily to qualify for Rune Lord, then spam DI for characteristics increases to maintain yourself there.

Increasing CHA through deeds is doable, but the rules are pretty clear it has to be about leadership. Save the community through a harsh winter, win the day by beating the enemy Champion, or lead the defence against Broos, that should work.

It would be pretty reasonable if the GM replaced the CHA demand with something else, though - you are supposed to be anti-social and a loner.

Edited November 22, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[svensson]

I perceive Odaylans as being the 'mountain-men' of Orlanthi society. They belong to the clan and are just as loyal to it as any other carl, but don't like large groups of people. They especially dislike human politics and petty feuds they think are trivial. They are a more 'primal' Oranthi type, solitary in nature, closer to nature, and they know every square inch of the tula... every hilltop and gully, every water source, every road, track, game trail, and rabbit run.

I think that it wouldn't break the system to give Odayla worshipers Surshot and Draw Beast as Rune spells, in addition to their Transform spells. It seems to me that these fit their role in society.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Hs anybody found the three parts of the Transform rune spells, i.e. Bear's Skin, Bear's Strength, and Claws, to be very useful in game play?

Bear's Strength is really good - one of my Orlanthi warrior's favorite spells.

As for the others, other than the "coolness" factor they seem, to me, pretty marginal as spells.  But maybe I'm not creative enough.  Wondering if others have found them useful in reasonable situations.

[svensson]

40 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Hs anybody found the three parts of the Transform rune spells, i.e. Bear's Skin, Bear's Strength, and Claws, to be very useful in game play?

Bear's Strength is really good - one of my Orlanthi warrior's favorite spells.

As for the others, other than the "coolness" factor they seem, to me, pretty marginal as spells.  But maybe I'm not creative enough.  Wondering if others have found them useful in reasonable situations.

Well hunters start with very poor armor, so anything that adds to their survivability is a Good Thing.

What's more, in most parties the hunter is the 'sneaky guy' [cuz, duh] so adding physical armors that decrease his Move Silently isn't optimal. Most players try and balance the two... enough armor to prevent an instant-kill by an unaugmented weapon but not enough to severely impede his work. By removing his armor and casting Bear's Skin, it usually results in a net gain in AP and the penalty for SIZ vs armor tends to remain the same. So I can see the utility of Bear's Skin.

It's Claws that I have an iffy time with. All the spells does is raise a caster's Fist attack to 1d6+db and grant +50% Climb. Since the Claws attack uses the caster's Fist attack score, I submit that it's just not that big a deal as a combat option. My reasons are these:

1. Most hunters carry a weapon that does at least 1d8+1+db, if not more.

2. The potential for two attacks in a round is limited... unless the caster has extraordinary SIZ and DEX, he probably won't get that second attack in. A fist attack happens, on average, at SR 7 or 8. If it's at SR 8, then the second attack doesn't have time to happen in the round.

3. As to the climb bonus, you can get similar [though not as great] results if you just cast the spirit magic spell Coordination. This saves you from having to 'burn' a Rune Point you might need for later.

 

 

[HreshtIronBorne]

I just rolled up an Odaylan called Wrestles-With-Bears, ended up with something like 75% in Fist and Grapple. He will probably die fast but, it will be GLORIOUS! His 11 INT makes total sense. 

 

How far can a bear-man throw a dude if he has STR of 49 or so? How much damage does he do when he hits a tree or other dude? 

I want to play a character that hits a mo-fo with another mo-fo and Odayla seems like a hot ticket! I used to play a Basmoli in am old campaign for a similar vibe, I can see Odayla hitting similar buttons for a player so inclined. 

[HreshtIronBorne]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

It's Claws that I have an iffy time with. All the spells does is raise a caster's Fist attack to 1d6+db and grant +50% Climb. Since the Claws attack uses the caster's Fist attack score, I submit that it's just not that big a deal as a combat option. My reasons are these:

I would suggest either a Martial Art, Hero Cult Secret, or some other such device to provide Odaylans with an ability to attack with both claws simultaneously, maybe require surprise? 

Bears pinning and mauling a victim is definitely something I can imagine. I think I have seen it in a movie once or twice... Almost all cats in the bestiary get the ability to rip with hind legs if they land both claws. The Hsunchen cults and those like them should have some sort of Animal Martial Art to attack in the ways their totem animal does. 

I think abilities like that, acquired through gameplay like HeroQuesting or finding an epic teacher or something is a great way of rewarding players that picked a tough role and play it well. 

[svensson]

2 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

I would suggest either a Martial Art, Hero Cult Secret, or some other such device to provide Odaylans with an ability to attack with both claws simultaneously, maybe require surprise? 

Bears pinning and mauling a victim is definitely something I can imagine. I think I have seen it in a movie once or twice... Almost all cats in the bestiary get the ability to rip with hind legs if they land both claws. The Hsunchen cults and those like them should have some sort of Animal Martial Art to attack in the ways their totem animal does. 

I think abilities like that, acquired through gameplay like HeroQuesting or finding an epic teacher or something is a great way of rewarding players that picked a tough role and play it well. 

Well, let's not forget the one unmentioned spell in Red Book of Magic that serves to make many of these spells VERY useful...

Transform Self:

2 Rune Points, Beast Rune

Touch, Duration [Special], Nonstackable

Definition: This spell must be stacked with the three specialty shapechanging spells. For example, an Odayla cultist used Bear's Skin, Bear's Strength, and Claws.

When these spells are combined with Transform Self, the user bodily transforms into a magical, semi-divine version of the god's animal. All the spells combine for full effect for one full hour. All the normal abilities of the animal become usable by the target for the spell's duration.

 

Now, that's a whopping 9 Rune Points[!], so this is out of range of most casual cultists. But it could be devastating to an opponent who is unfortunate enough to find themselves in melee with the Odayla priest.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 minutes ago, svensson said:

But it could be devastating to an opponent who is unfortunate enough to find themselves in melee with the Odayla priest.

Am I missing something?  The Bear can't parry and has 4 points of armor.  (Plus any magical armor).  I guess Odaylans could be o.k. if they have a high Dodge.

@HreshtIronBorne  My Vingan warrior gets STR into the 40s when she is all mo-foed up.  But she uses an iron sword with perhaps some bladesharp.

[HreshtIronBorne]

9 minutes ago, svensson said:

Well, let's not forget the one unmentioned spell in Red Book of Magic that serves to make many of these spells VERY useful...

Transform Self:

2 Rune Points, Beast Rune

Touch, Duration [Special], Nonstackable

Definition: This spell must be stacked with the three specialty shapechanging spells. For example, an Odayla cultist used Bear's Skin, Bear's Strength, and Claws.

When these spells are combined with Transform Self, the user bodily transforms into a magical, semi-divine version of the god's animal. All the spells combine for full effect for one full hour. All the normal abilities of the animal become usable by the target for the spell's duration.

 

Now, that's a whopping 9 Rune Points[!], so this is out of range of most casual cultists. But it could be devastating to an opponent who is unfortunate enough to find themselves in melee with the Odayla priest.

The 9 RP investment is honestly kind of insane. It really incentivizes the creation of a matrix to place any of your extra POW after reaching your RP cap. 

 

Odayla gets Rune-Lords so they have awesome DI. The cult write-up also says that followers after worship ancestors through Daka Fal. And the associated cult of Orlanth Thunderous gets Bear's  Strength in addition to being name dropped in the spell description,  which I assume means it a pretty frequent secondary cult for Odaylans. 

 

Through those two avenues there are lots of ways tp get GREAT archery stuff if you want it. 

[HreshtIronBorne]

8 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Am I missing something?  The Bear can't parry and has 4 points of armor.  (Plus any magical armor).  I guess Odaylans could be o.k. if they have a high Dodge.

@HreshtIronBorne  My Vingan warrior gets STR into the 40s when she is all mo-foed up.  But she uses an iron sword with perhaps some bladesharp.

Gotta treat the Bear kinda like a Berserk. He is really likely to go down unless he is a Rune-Lord with an allied spirit and/or all the other shenanigans you can put together to survive dangerous combats.

In older campaigns we have house ruled stuff for hunters making armor out of their most epic kills. Really wish the Weapons and Equipment guide covered some exotic materials like making Armor out of a 12AP dinosaur hide or something wicked. 

I haven't really had much game time on the ground playing an Odaylan yet, though there was one of them in my last campaign that had a decent run, not my PC though. I just really like the idea of a human getting up to a 3 or 4d6 DB and rolling Mega Crushing Damage on people. I am a simple man, I like beeg numbers and weird characters. Lol. 

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Hs anybody found the three parts of the Transform rune spells, i.e. Bear's Skin, Bear's Strength, and Claws, to be very useful in game play?

Bear’s Strength is pretty good, but the whole package is grossly overpriced. I houseruled them to be better and cheaper, and to allow the Transform spell to transform you into a non-magical animal of the right type.

[Akhôrahil]

9 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Gotta treat the Bear kinda like a Berserk.

One of my players is looking for Odayla/Storm Bull.

I can picture a full-on beary berserking being something to watch.

[svensson]

I think is might be a valid rules question to @Scotty:

What is the extent of the transformation when a spell caster uses Transform Self?

- Does the caster lose their intelligence?

- Do the caster's senses change into the 'semi-divine animal's'?

- Can they cast spells while in animal form?

- Do they count as 'were-animals' for damage?

- How is skill use [Dodge and Parry primarily] effected?

Edited November 22, 2022 by svensson

[svensson]

24 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

One of my players is looking for Odayla/Storm Bull.

I can picture a full-on beary berserking being something to watch.

Talk about terrifying.... Yeah, that'd do it.

OTOH, here is something EQUALLY frightening... SHAVED BEAR!

Seriously, if I was the veterinarian who had to shave a bear, I'd sedate it, do the job, and be on the next plane to another time zone by the time 'Gentle Ben' woke up!

Ok, jokes aside, this is Dolores a European Black Bear at the Tiergarten Leipzig. The poor girl has mange so bad her hair falls out.

 

[HreshtIronBorne]

Sorry if I derailed the thread. We cna move the min-maxing talk over to the munchkinnery thread if it fits better there. 

 

The open avenue in the Rules to worship Daka Fal and therefore any ancestor with great magic or going with Orlanth as a second cult really opens up options for ranged attack and supplementary magic for the Odaylan. Really, he has a niche he fills pretty good being the Wildman that interfaces with nature and lives in the boonies. Anyone wanting more can definitely get it through the Storm Pantheon or Daka Fal. 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Poster I remember from years ago.