Goddess of Herd-Men

[svensson]

In my neverending quest to find obscure and useless trivialities to discuss and argue about, the nature of Uralda/Eiritha came up in my Elmal thread and it made me as the question, 'Which deity is the patron/ess of Herd-Men?'

Is there a Eiritha-Herd-Man tradition? Is it still Daka Fal?

[jean]

In the boargame Nomad Gods, there is an Eiritha protectress for the Herdmen.

 

It is logical there is a Eiritha-Herd-Man tradition, because the herdmen are , well, herd beasts.

 

 

[svensson]

4 hours ago, jean said:

In the boargame Nomad Gods, there is an Eiritha protectress for the Herdmen.

 

It is logical there is a Eiritha-Herd-Man tradition, because the herdmen are , well, herd beasts.

 

 

I can certainly see the 'Glorantha-logic' of that.

But the reverse is also true... while not sapient, herd-men could still be consider Men and tied more to the Man Rune than the Beast Rune.

Hence my question.

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, jean said:

It is logical there is a Eiritha-Herd-Man tradition, because the herdmen are, well, herd beasts.

Health warning: I don’t know either, but …

Myths can have that delightful/distressing (your personality may vary) quality of “explaining” what we already know. We know the the sun rises and sets every day, but why? Because the wind stabbed the sun in a hissy fit and then did a deal to bring it back part time. So now we have a story to tell the little ones and a theme for that play we promised to perform every ten years after the plague passed us by.

On the face of it, the Prax survival lottery is an aetiological myth in the same vein: we know the herd beasts graze and or browse and that we exploit that ability we lack by eating them. The lottery gives us a pretty picture to go with that. If the herd men were part of the familiar, natural given to be explained by the myth, they would be the Gloranthan equivalent of gorillas or geladas. (For five minutes it might be tempting to have Gloranthan geladas herded by Gloranthan baboons, but I suspect the temptation would fade.)

But the vegetarian Morokanth seem to be a spanner in the works — if the myth is supposed to tie everything up in a nice pink bow, why don’t the Morokanth eat the herd men? If they “cheated on the lottery”, they didn’t do a very good job of it: they are saddled with “looking after” herds they cannot even eat. If you are a Morokanth who needs a pair of clever monkey hands, just hire a baboon — they are smart and you can talk to them.

Maybe the myth used to work — the human herders herded and the Morokanth minded their own business — but someone broke it. But who would do that? A philosophically inclined Godlearner or Dragonewt who wanted to get the Praxians to reflect on the real difference between human and person and the illusory difference between human and beast? But I cannot see the Godlearners as being that thoughtful or the Dragonewts as being that interested in humans.

Perhaps the real function of the myth is why we hate the Morokanth but think it is OK to eat our cousins. The Praxians “always” ate their hoofed beasts but in tough times got a taste for manflesh, a taste they never lost and felt a need to explain: they are just beasts and anyway it is the fault of the cheating tapirfolk. Perhaps the human demand for herd man meat is greater than previously suspected (by outsiders): the herd men are a cash crop for the Morokanth, that is what makes their manherding worthwhile.

The herd men are 100% man because represents the humanoid shape (e.g. RQ2 p. 57). One suspects that all are , that all animals are descended from Hykim–Mikyh (Waha khans are, they claim), even the intelligent ones, even the intelligent ones who are not human-shaped. Perhaps what makes a beast an Eiritha beast is that it is [a] herded on Prax and [b] eaten by Praxian humans. But perhaps not. Will Praxian humans eat horseflesh? Perhaps it is just a matter of whatever the Waha cult says goes and best not argue with the Butcher.

[svensson]

@mfbrandi

There's a lot of exceptions, exclusions, odd INclusions, and other strange moments of 'you'd think that but...' in Glorantha. The beauty of Glorantha is that it all has its own internal logic, but sometimes you have to be shown where the 'Stafford-isms' are.

Sometimes I think The Great Greg is just Illuminating us all and laughing butt off while he does it. 😁

[Akhôrahil]

Premise: Storm Bull is depicted as a person with the head of your people's male herd beast.
Conclusion: Therefore Morokanth Storm Bull ("Storm Bloke"?) has the body of a Morokanth and the head of a male herd-man.

Edited April 16, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, svensson said:

Sometimes I think The Great Greg is just Illuminating us all and laughing butt off while he does it. 😁

Always go to the source: Bison/Impala/High Llama/Morokanth/Sable Mothers.

 

[soltakss]

On 4/15/2023 at 5:09 PM, svensson said:

Which deity is the patron/ess of Herd-Men?

Eiritha.

 

[g33k]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Always go to the source: Bison/Impala/High Llama/Morokanth/Sable Mothers.

 

The Morokanth Mother is... a Mind-Flayer??!?

[g33k]

5 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

... Maybe the myth used to work — the human herders herded and the Morokanth minded their own business — but someone broke it. But who would do that? A philosophically inclined Godlearner or Dragonewt who wanted to get the Praxians to reflect on the real difference between human and person and the illusory difference between human and beast? But I cannot see the Godlearners as being that thoughtful or the Dragonewts as being that interested in humans...

 

Errrr... "who would break a working social-contract" has a  really  obvious answer...

With a quick casting of the Lie Runespell, "It wasn't me!" and suddenly we're all wondering about Godlearners, and Dragonewts, and doubtless Chaos in the Great Darkness, etc etc etc.

Because we all know it  Wasn't Him .

 

Edited April 16, 2023 by g33k

[mfbrandi]

11 minutes ago, g33k said:

The Morokanth Mother is... a Mind-Flayer??!?

With its head on backwards. I had the same thought.

[Akhôrahil]

17 hours ago, g33k said:

The Morokanth Mother is... a Mind-Flayer??!?

This is the dark secret about how they make herd-men. All the normal explanations are bollocks - their Mind-Flayer eats the minds of regular people, leaving mind-drained herd-men. Everything else is a cover-up.

[MOB]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This is the dark secret about how they make herd-men. All the normal explanations are bollocks - their Mind-Flayer eats the minds of regular people, leaving mind-drained herd-men. Everything else is a cover-up.

Something for @scott-martin's "My Dumbest Theory" thread (whenever I say this it is a compliment)

[Jeff]

On 4/16/2023 at 10:12 AM, soltakss said:

Eiritha.

 

Correct.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, MOB said:

Something for @scott-martin's "My Dumbest Theory" thread (whenever I say this it is a compliment)

I seem to recall you stating that was officially your  Favorite BRPC Thread Ever .  🙂

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 4/16/2023 at 1:50 PM, svensson said:

But the reverse is also true... while not sapient, herd-men could still be consider Men and tied more to the Man Rune than the Beast Rune.

I don't follow this path.

From my perspective herd men are herd with man shape, but they are exactly like impala, bison,  lama and sables: they are herd.

they don't have god or goddess, they are herd.

But their "owners" have gods and goddesses. And those who want the protection of their praxian herds, sable, bison, impala lama or herd men, worship Eiritha.

Whatever were their ancestors, those... "losers" , they are just praxian herd now. no more, no less.

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I don't follow this path.

From my perspective herd men are herd with man shape, but they are exactly like impala, bison,  lama and sables: they are herd.

they don't have god or goddess, they are herd.

But their "owners" have gods and goddesses. And those who want the protection of their praxian herds, sable, bison, impala lama or herd men, worship Eiritha.

Whatever were their ancestors, those... "losers" , they are just praxian herd now. no more, no less.

Herd-Men have the Beast Rune not the Man Rune.

[French Desperate WindChild]

12 hours ago, Jeff said:

Herd-Men have the Beast Rune not the Man Rune.

that means that rune is not a "shape definition" but more a kind of "identity definition" , right ?

so for example the fish priest in the comic is more man than beast from a rune perspective ?

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

that means that rune is not a "shape definition" but more a kind of "identity definition" , right ?

See the definition of Man | Beast in RQG page 50.  Herd-Men are bestial, savage, feral, wild, and untamed. As children of Eiritha they are effectively domestic animals.

[French Desperate WindChild]

49 minutes ago, David Scott said:

See the definition of Man | Beast in RQG page 50.  Herd-Men are bestial, savage, feral, wild, and untamed. As children of Eiritha they are effectively domestic animals.

yes that's what I had in mind, but as I m not rune level lore master (maybe just initiate ?) I prefer to ask. This kind of words for example seems in opposition (rq2 vs rqg) :

 

On 4/16/2023 at 2:19 PM, mfbrandi said:

The herd men are 100% man because represents the humanoid shape

so depending on the version of the rules the runes don't mean the same things. Note that I prefer rqg 😛

[Rick Meints]

45 minutes ago, David Scott said:

See the definition of Man | Beast in RQG page 50.  Herd-Men are bestial, savage, feral, wild, and untamed. As children of Eiritha they are effectively domestic animals.

As always, if you feel otherwise, do whatever you want in your game. In the RQ books that Chaosium will publish, Herd men are nothing more than simple animals. There is no glimmer or trace of sentience in them. They are not subtley calling out for someone to restore them to being regular people with the power of speech, etc. They don't worship anything. They don't wish they were sentient humans.

[Ormi Phengaria]

4 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

so depending on the version of the rules the runes don't mean the same things. Note that I prefer rqg 😛

It does represent the humanoid shape. That's not everything that it means, but that's what the rune itself, the symbol, shows. Just like the beast rune representing the armour plate over the eye of a dragon, or the death rune representing a sword. The same description of the man rune this is being pulled from goes into the different meanings ascribed to it.

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Herd-Men are bestial, savage, feral, wild, and untamed. As children of Eiritha they are effectively domestic animals.

I am not interested in rules lawyering or promoting one version of RQ over another, and if I were, this wouldn’t be the right forum, anyway.

However, David’s comment does illustrate what I was trying to call attention to — not to tell you what you must think about it once noticed — for domestic animals may be gentle, mild, tamed, docile, trained, broken, unthreatening, and bridled. (Gosh, someone’s been picking from a list of antonyms!)

But does that make them “men”?

“Oh, but it is just a metaphor, imagery …” Indeed.

If people didn’t laugh, it is my fault for not being funny enough.

I make no comment on the ethics of eating people, animals, or animals shaped like people men.

Edited April 18, 2023 by mfbrandi
strikethrough

[Darius West]

On 4/16/2023 at 2:09 AM, svensson said:

In my neverending quest to find obscure and useless trivialities to discuss and argue about, the nature of Uralda/Eiritha came up in my Elmal thread and it made me as the question, 'Which deity is the patron/ess of Herd-Men?'

Is there a Eiritha-Herd-Man tradition? 

Each clan has an "Eiritha" who has the head of their herd beast.  These are the Herd Protectresses.  Is it so hard to imagine an Eiritha with a human head?  I imagine she will prominently smile to show her large flat grazing teeth.

[Jeff]

Herd-Men are the reason many Praxians say the Morokanth must have cheated. They defeated men and turned them into herd animals. And their herd-men are beasts, not men. They treat them like other Praxians treat their herd beasts - because (and this is the really ignominious part) they are herd Beasts. They are children of Eiritha, just like bison, high llamas, impalas, and sable antelope.