Definitive Timeline? (Who killed Kallyr Starbrow?)

[Hellfire6a]

I used the great background generator online. It came up with Devotion to Harrek the Berserk. I am trying to figure out the connection to the death of Gunda the Guilty and Kallyr Starbrow. Has this changed in the new edition?  I see two ways for Kallyr to die. Killed by Lunars or by Harrek. I am trying to figure out what kind of impact this has on my character. Also what is the time the game actually starts. The starter set has Kallyr sending the PCs on a mission after the battle of Dangerford. Then I run accross information that Kallyr is dead?!? EDIT: Possibly three ways...who is Moriades?

[Nick Brooke]

In RQG canon, Kallyr Starbrow dies for good when she’s killed by Lunar assassins at the Battle of Queens, in the summer of 1626. She was still alive and sending adventurers on missions up until then. You can read about it in Vasana’s Saga in the core rulebook, and there’s a full scenario about it in The Seven Tailed Wolf. There is no connection to Gunda or Harrek.

Moirades is the last Tarsh King before the incumbent, his son Tarsh King Pharandros. The book King of Sartar often gets the name wrong, calling the Tarsh King at the time of the Hero Wars “Moirades,” although other sources authoritatively tell us that Moirades died back in 1610 when Jar-eel came calling. Cunning minds have come up with more or less plausible explanations. (Mine is in The Duel at Dangerford and Crimson King; another version was in the old Unspoken Word zine, Tarsh in Flames).

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, Hellfire6a said:

I am trying to figure out the connection to the death of Gunda the Guilty and Kallyr Starbrow. Has this changed in the new edition?  I see two ways for Kallyr to die. Killed by Lunars or by Harrek.

I believe the canonical death of Gunda will be:

Spoiler

~1628 after the Battle of Heroes when Harrek and company raid Ethilrist's home at Muse Roost and Ethilrist releases the Hound on a Doom Run that kills Gunda permanently.

 

[Hellfire6a]

So where do I look to find the story of Harrek and Gunda? There doesn't seem to be anything comprehensive online, in the RQG book, in the Glorantha Sourcebook etc. Do I have to go to King of Sartar or to the comic to get an understanding of these individuals? If these are the Hero Wars I guess I should have an understanding of the Heroes.

[jajagappa]

8 minutes ago, Hellfire6a said:

So where do I look to find the story of Harrek and Gunda? There doesn't seem to be anything comprehensive online, in the RQG book, in the Glorantha Sourcebook etc. Do I have to go to King of Sartar or to the comic to get an understanding of these individuals? If these are the Hero Wars I guess I should have an understanding of the Heroes.

The best descriptions of them came out in the original White Bear Red Moon (WBRM) boardgame (later released under the name Dragon Pass). 

However, the best current reference to Harrek came from one of Jeff's FB posts which is available on the Well of Daliath here: Notes on Harrek the Berserk – The Well of Daliath (chaosium.com)

There's not an equivalent note on Gunda, but read the descriptions for the artwork in the Guide posted here: Harrek the Berserk & Gunda the Guilty Art Preview – The Well of Daliath (chaosium.com) - the Gunda text is taken from WBRM.

While this post doesn't note much on specifics on either, it is useful in thinking about how to represent these heroes in game. Heracles on the Argos – The Well of Daliath (chaosium.com)

[EricW]

Kallyr returns in the Battle of Moonfall? She’s listed as one of the heroes sent to support Argrath?

[Nick Brooke]

16 minutes ago, EricW said:

Kallyr returns in the Battle of Moonfall? She’s listed as one of the heroes sent to support Argrath?

Yeah, but that’s mythic bollocks. She’s gone from the mortal world after Queens.

[Joerg]

10 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Yeah, but that’s mythic bollocks. She’s gone from the mortal world after Queens.

Mythical bollocks doesn't mean this cannot happen, does it?

[Nick Brooke]

No, it means it’s irrelevant. Kallyr Starbrow’s alleged posthumous career is not what the OP was asking about. She dies in Fire season of 1626, killed by Lunar assassins at the Battle of Queens.

[JRE]

Considering that Moonfall is somewhere between 50 and 100 years after her death (or more), it may just be any Vingan heroine spirit. It may even be her spirit. But it has nothing to do with her life or death. In the same way you could try to get Alakoring Dragonbreaker's help if you were going against a dragon, even if he has been dead for 500 years.

If you go against the Moon, call her enemies.

[JRE]

As for who killed Kallyr, I always found suspicious that the assassins teleported behind her, as that seems more fitting to Orlanthi. If they had been invisible, that would be more suitable. As well all Empire resources were either lost in the Dragonrise or committed in the Redlands, so they had to be Tarshite assassins, rather than Lunar ones (even if we assume you can find a pocket of Lunar magic in Furthest). I also find it surprising that Pharandros suddenly abandons the campaign after killing Kallyr and two tribal kings/queens, even if they came out worse in losses.

So my preferred conspiracy is that the assassins were orlanthi, Fazzurite assassins working for Fazzur for years. Fazzur, even if no longer involved in the war, could reasonably expect the Emperor to send him once again to pacify after Tatius death, but that may have to wait years to raise a new army, and he wants to avoid Sartarite complications duirng the Tarshite civil war he has been preparing. So he nips in the bud the Sartarite Prince, believing that will keep sartar weak and divided for a few years.

Pharandros recognizes the assassins and abandons the campaign. 

In this scenario Kallys's death is the opening shots of the Tarshite civil war.

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, JRE said:

As for who killed Kallyr, I always found suspicious that the assassins teleported behind her, as that seems more fitting to Orlanthi.

The Red Emperor does have access to teleportation (Tales #8) and I've seen Jeff refer to He Who Moves (Annilla's Husband) being another name for Mastakos.

As for why Pharandros suddenly abandons the campaign, Fazzur could always launch troops against Furthest while the main Tarshite army is stuck in Sartar (historical example: Marius seizes Rome while his enemy Sulla is leading an army against Mithradates).  Or if he didn't want to be so overt, he could use his son Onjur to lead the Tarsh Exiles.  

Edited June 21, 2023 by metcalph

[Jeff]

5 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

No, it means it’s irrelevant. Kallyr Starbrow’s alleged posthumous career is not what the OP was asking about. She dies in Fire season of 1626, killed by Lunar assassins at the Battle of Queens.

Correct. Pharandros hires some exotic assassins to take Kallyr out of play during the battle. His plan nearly succeeds - Kallyr dies, and the Sartarite army is leaderless. Then the Colymar drive hard into Pharandros' side and that inspires the other Sartarites. The Tarshite retreat becomes a rout and the army is pursued almost to Alda-Chur. Then the Sartarites disperse. Both sides to recover.

After that Pharandros needs to scurry back to Furthest to look after his own kingdom. Furthest doesn't have the resources to launch another campaign.

[Lordabdul]

11 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

No, it means it’s irrelevant. Kallyr Starbrow’s alleged posthumous career is not what the OP was asking about. She dies in Fire season of 1626, killed by Lunar assassins at the Battle of Queens.

Unless you're playing a Lunar campaign and the assassins are the adventurers... we all know the players are going to fuck this up.

[Hellfire6a]

Thanks for the information. Seems there will be more to learn in the future. In the background my PC gained Devotion to Harrek after the PC participated in the sacking of the City of Wonder. So I am envisioning some tension between the PC and other players who are devoted to Argrath. The bickering that has occurred between the two has resulted in tension between the followers of both heroes. The earlier scenarios provide Kallyr as an almost patron sending the players to Jonstown. I am trying to envision how that would impact the PC is he sent away from Dangerford because he is a companion of Harrek? Or is there no animosity between the two. My PC is also Taraling clan so he would be leaning toward Leika from the beginning. 

[hipsterinspace]

Harrek and Argrath have a pretty close relationship, Argrath was actually part of Harrek’s crew when the Wolf Pirates circumnavigated the Homeward Ocean to fully end the Closing. There are some fairly obvious Achilles and Patroclus undertones to their relationship, read into that what you’d like, but however you slice it they are boon companions and through the metaplot fight a lot of battles alongside one another.

The PC culture that has the real problem with Harrek are going to be the Esrolians, who he and his Wolf Pirates have caused no end of trouble for. It’s very possible for Esrolian PCs to lose a parent to the Wolf Pirates when Harrek rolls in to destroy the Holy Country’s fleet. I’d suspect someone loyal to Queen Samastina would have a much, much bigger issue with being cozy with Harrek (to the extent that that’s even possible) than someone loyal to Argrath.

Edited June 22, 2023 by hipsterinspace

[Nick Brooke]

On the other hand, Harrek and the Wolf Pirates fought on the winning side in the Esrolian Civil War, and broke the Lunars at Pennel Ford. That doesn’t mean we have to like him…

[John Biles]

1 hour ago, Nick Brooke said:

On the other hand, Harrek and the Wolf Pirates fought on the winning side in the Esrolian Civil War, and broke the Lunars at Pennel Ford. That doesn’t mean we have to like him…

Harrek is very much someone who would annoy the Esrolians just by being alive.

But using someone you hate against someone you also hate feels Esrolian to me.

 

[JRE]

Harrek is someone almost everybody is glad to see go away, and I suspect Argrath encourages his "friend" to set his new kingdom in Pamaltela, to avoid having Harrek sacking Kethaela regularly, now that as an ally of Queen Samastina he is bound to defend Esrolia.

However for me the key reason for his departure to the south is the double whammy in 1628 of being Harmonized with Jar Eel, falling in love with her as he kills her, and losing Gunda. That changes him so much that he just takes a good portion of the Wolf Pirates and goes south. He still returns occasionally, and I can imagine Jar Eel visiting him as her duties allow it. The only one that really gets the other..

[Qizilbashwoman]

6 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

There are some fairly obvious Achilles and Patroclus undertones to their relationship

o god now I can't unthink Argrath the murder twink

[jajagappa]

18 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

The PC culture that has the real problem with Harrek are going to be the Esrolians, who he and his Wolf Pirates have caused no end of trouble for. It’s very possible for Esrolian PCs to lose a parent to the Wolf Pirates when Harrek rolls in to destroy the Holy Country’s fleet. 

Not just the Esrolians - pretty much everyone within the Holy Country. There's a lot of entries on Wolf Pirates in the Heortland character background I put together. Coastal Heortland, God Forgot, the Rightarm Islands are all equally or more vulnerable than Esrolia. Even Caladraland given the presence of Gemborg is going to attract the Wolf Pirates.

15 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

On the other hand, Harrek and the Wolf Pirates fought on the winning side in the Esrolian Civil War, and broke the Lunars at Pennel Ford. That doesn’t mean we have to like him…

And some people in Nochet got very, very rich when Harrek and the Wolf Pirates spent their gold. 🙂 Of course, there was also a lot of encouragement to go find the treasures that got hidden from them... Boldhome, for instance, nice treasury there... And Casino Town, bet a smart Wolf Pirate would know how to give that Faro Wheel a good turn and get real lucky...

[hipsterinspace]

21 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Not just the Esrolians - pretty much everyone within the Holy Country. There's a lot of entries on Wolf Pirates in the Heortland character background I put together. Coastal Heortland, God Forgot, the Rightarm Islands are all equally or more vulnerable than Esrolia. Even Caladraland given the presence of Gemborg is going to attract the Wolf Pirates.

Certainly true, though Esrolia is the sort of “chosen sixth” to represent the Holy Country of the core PC cultures, and I was really only thinking of the family histories in the core book.

I’d imagine the thing that typically creates trouble for the Esrolians isn’t as much Wolf Pirates launching probing raids like the Ditali and Solanthi, but the extortion and plundering of the innumerable trade ships heading between Nochet and much further afield.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

I’d imagine the thing that typically creates trouble for the Esrolians isn’t as much Wolf Pirates launching probing raids like the Ditali and Solanthi, but the extortion and plundering of the innumerable trade ships heading between Nochet and much further afield.

This is definitely the case! Getting trade ships safely off and back is a constant challenge.

[Jeff]

14 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

Certainly true, though Esrolia is the sort of “chosen sixth” to represent the Holy Country of the core PC cultures, and I was really only thinking of the family histories in the core book.

I’d imagine the thing that typically creates trouble for the Esrolians isn’t as much Wolf Pirates launching probing raids like the Ditali and Solanthi, but the extortion and plundering of the innumerable trade ships heading between Nochet and much further afield.

Since over 60% of the human population of the Holy Country are Esrolian, I think that is a reasonable default. Especially since the next biggest group is basically identical to the Sartarites.

[Hellfire6a]

Cheers! Harrek just seems like a total loose cannon. However, Argrath seems to be able at least to "point and shoot". When Harrek is not following direction and on his own seems to be when he becomes something more akin to a human version of a tsunami. My PC has so many complications and contradictions already. Air Rune at 90% and Fire/Sky at 60% just to name one makes me kind of laugh. He's from Runegate but he's contemplating initiating in Yelmalio because it is easier to become a Runelord (already initiate of Orlanth Adventurous). That is going to cause problems at home 😛 So adding a Devotion to Harrek just seems to "make sense" for this PC. I guess I am just trying to grasp the "inciting incident" for this devotion. The Fire/Sky Rune seems to at least partially be against forming a relationship/devotion to a destructive force of nature. (But what RP grist!)

Edited June 23, 2023 by Hellfire6a
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