bee cults /Aldrya ?

[CHANT]

is there an Aldryamy honey bee sub cult ? bees are kinda important in the general ecology of plants !or maybe I should write one ?? as for darkness ,seeds germinate in darkness , so the Aldryami are pretty connected there ,one way or another !

Edited September 2, 2023 by CHANT

[Nick Brooke]

Gorakiki-Bee.

[Nick Brooke]

The Gorakiki cult writeup is available in RuneQuest Classic Trollpak; its Rune spells (for transforming bits of yourself into bee parts) are on p.86, and there's a Miscellaneous Note at the end saying that the children of Gorakiki have become attached to all sorts of strange groups (and a mention of propitiatory worship by humans and elves, though it sounds like you're going for something closer). "Gorakiki has no real control over what her children do, being merely an ancestral deity, and trolls try to overlook the existence of insects tied to the cults of Mallia, the Lightbringers, or other usually hostile gods." So the opening is certainly there, if you want to use it.

If you're into plant ecology, cult and myth, check out The Voralans, a superb study of fungus elves, and then write something similar on the relationship between Aldryami, bees, pollination, giant bees, etc.

[mfbrandi]

This came up also in the Brand New Gods thread.

When it comes to pollination — rather than honey/mead/Minlister — honey bees shouldn’t get all the credit: other bees, other insects (beetles, moths, wasps, … all nominally, at least, Darkness), lizards (Earth), bats (Moon, presumably), birds (Fire–Sky), the wind (Air–Storm), even water (Water!). A pollination cult has the potential to be a union of the elements.

[Joerg]

That's the ecological role of sprites. Aldryami bloom was able to do without beasts of Darkness,  but allowed them in.

[Akhôrahil]

It does fell slightly odd, at least to me, that bees are creatures of Darkness. They are diurnal and associated with flowers and golden honey. Not exactly creepy-crawly creatures of decay.

[Leingod]

It's also a little odd, to me, that the Aldryami are generally portrayed as overall indifferent to animal life, despite the critical role so many different animals play in a forest ecosystem, and how many of them have strong effects on the health of the trees the Aldryami spend their lives tending and protecting. I wonder if that's maybe a reflection of Glorantha's age as a setting, that it was made before many of us really interalized just how interconnected and interdependent something like a forest is, instead imagining the trees as existing somehow independently of all the myriad things that live and die around them.

You'd also kind of expect their Great Darkness story to be as much about them fighting off (or more rarely, finding compromises with) invasive species of animals, fungi, even other plants, as fighting stuff like humans, trolls, and dwarfs.

4 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

bats (Moon, presumably)

Bats are historically associated with Darkness, the Moon association is a recent thing from the Lunar Empire as far as I can tell. And being mammals, I'd posit they were born from a union of Darkness and Air beast-gods, in the same way that air-breathing aquatic life are specifically noted as coming from a union of Air and Water beast-gods.

[ZedAlpha]

5 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

This came up also in the Brand New Gods thread.

When it comes to pollination — rather than honey/mead/Minlister — honey bees shouldn’t get all the credit: other bees, other insects (beetles, moths, wasps, … all nominally, at least, Darkness), lizards (Earth), bats (Moon, presumably), birds (Fire–Sky), the wind (Air–Storm), even water (Water!). A pollination cult has the potential to be a union of the elements.

That's a great idea, actually. A sort of omni-elemental cult of various powerful spirits/lesser gods, representing animals and forces that pollinate plants.

13 minutes ago, Leingod said:

It's also a little odd, to me, that the Aldryami are generally portrayed as overall indifferent to animal life, despite the critical role so many different animals play in a forest ecosystem, and how many of them have strong effects on the health of the trees the Aldryami spend their lives tending and protecting. I wonder if that's maybe a reflection of Glorantha's age as a setting, that it was made before many of us really interalized just how interconnected and interdependent something like a forest is, instead imagining the trees as existing somehow independently of all the myriad things that live and die around them.

You'd also kind of expect their Great Darkness story to be as much about them fighting off (or more rarely, finding compromises with) invasive species of animals, fungi, even other plants, as fighting stuff like humans, trolls, and dwarfs.

Yeah. That's a weird, reductive take on plants and their life cycles that always struck me as like..primitive in a way that snaps my suspension of disbelief. Bronze Age people absolutely would have noticed the relationship between bees/pollinator wasps/bats/beetles and flowers. Hell, a lot of them explicitly did. It makes sense that Gloranthans would notice it too. But the lack of it in the lore is odd. 

Still, could always blame the God Learners. Maybe they messed with the Aldryami myths to turn them a lot more hostile to meat beasts?

[Qizilbashwoman]

57 minutes ago, Leingod said:

the Moon association is a recent thing from the Lunar Empire

the bat-goddess that helped orlanth strike down yelm by distracting him (the original Hill of Gold motif!) and was sent to hell is associated with darkness by Yelmites but also the destruction of the blue moon. It isn't clear what the mythological era role of moon was at that time.

I personally see a big connection between the Red Bat and this figure

Edited September 1, 2023 by Qizilbashwoman

[Malin]

The way I always looked at it was that bees are creatures of darkness because many (most?) insects are. Bees and bumblebees often nest in the ground where I live, and I can see them exiting from the underground together with the trolls when Yelm messed everything up as he descended.

Perhaps before this, trees and flowers were pollinated by wind (spirits), with no need for animals. But in the lesser darkness, before everything turned completely sideways, bees might have started to pollinate plants as well. Bumblebees in particular, can handle cold. Perhaps elves originally saw this as the bees stealing from them, making honey, as they didn't see a need for that ecological niche, and the trolls were already eating them? Were bees eating flowers too? Getting honey from them? I can see how they would come to that conclusion. Bees bad.

And now once Time has begun, bees and other insects remain on the surface. Most perhaps don't interact much with elves, but bees must do that all the time. Perhaps we should see bees as a possible future peacemonger between darkness and the plants? A troll bumblebeekeeper trying to convince the local elf population that they actually perform a valuable service and is far more reliant and diligent than the flighty wind spirits? What will happen to pollination when Orlanth dies, and the windstop happens? Will bees step up?

EDIT: When you think about it, a wooden beehive created by farmers keeping bees replicates the cozy darkness inside the earth for the bees. The larvae needs the dark, while the adults can brave Yelm's light.

EDITEDIT: Maybe an Argan Argar/Gorakiki subcult? Are Orlanthi tribes close to the darkness runes better beekeepers?

Yes, I realize that this is veering into your dumbest theory territory, but my granddad was a beekeper and now I am kinda invested in this arc...

Edited September 1, 2023 by Malin

[ZedAlpha]

that bee is so cute.

[Ironwall]

6 hours ago, Leingod said:

It's also a little odd, to me, that the Aldryami are generally portrayed as overall indifferent to animal life, despite the critical role so many different animals play in a forest ecosystem, and how many of them have strong effects on the health of the trees the Aldryami spend their lives tending and protecting. I wonder if that's maybe a reflection of Glorantha's age as a setting, that it was made before many of us really interalized just how interconnected and interdependent something like a forest is, instead imagining the trees as existing somehow independently of all the myriad things that live and die around them.

I believe a small amount of a small amount of elves worship eiritha. (I believe Jeff posted elf cult membership somewhere I'd have to find it) this could be the elves in charge of the herds of large animals such as deer, Bison, ect for the the forests benefit. 

Alternatively Aldryami may use animals spirits to maintain animal population at levels beneficial to the trees 

Edited September 1, 2023 by Ironwall

[g33k]

It's worth noting that horses are Fire/Sky ungulates (the others AFAIK/IIRC are all Earth (except are hippo's Water?)), so there's Gloranthan precedent to break out specific creatures from within a larger Earthly clade, and give them different mythological foundation(s) & Runic association(s).

Edited September 1, 2023 by g33k

[g33k]

16 hours ago, CHANT said:

is there an Aldryamy honey bee sub cult ? bees are kinda important in the general ecology of plants !or maybe I should write one ??

Also, @CHANT -- hello, and welcome to the Tribe!

[Richard S.]

Maybe Gorakiki-bee specifically is neutral towards Yelm, like Xiola Umbar? Fire and Darkness might be natural enemies, but there's always an exception. I like the idea that insects took over pollination from things like wind spirits during the turmoil of the darkness. And hell, maybe beekeeping provides a social role for those elves born with some darkness affinity.

[Leingod]

3 hours ago, g33k said:

It's worth noting that horses are Fire/Sky ungulates (the others AFAIK/IIRC are all Earth (except are hippo's Water?)), so there's Gloranthan precedent to break out specific creatures from within a larger Earthly clade, and give them different mythological foundation(s) & Runic association(s).

Mythologically, that's because horses started out as hippogriffs, with the horse goddess losing her wings, claws, etc. in the Gods War.

The general rule of thumb, IIRC, is that Invertebrates = Darkness, Fish = Water, Reptiles = Earth, Birds = Fire/Sky, Mammals = Air, but in the latter case it's been muddled somewhat by the frequent marriage of Storm gods to Earth goddesses. Most herd animals thus have some elements of a gendered Air/Earth split, at least among the Orlanthi. Storm Bull, Orlanth is associated with rams (and notably "Orlanth the Youth" is basically Voriof, a shepherd), Ragnaglar was a goat, the Harandings were boar people, etc.

[Squaredeal Sten]

TheGorakiki bee subcult may have some Aldryami association due to a mythical event.  All you have to do is write the mythical event.  These insects are not " eaters" like other insects.  They have a different relationship with flowering plants including deciduous trees.  And by the way I believe that is brown elves.  Might it be a little known Aldrysmi heroquest?  

[Joerg]

15 hours ago, Leingod said:

It's also a little odd, to me, that the Aldryami are generally portrayed as overall indifferent to animal life, despite the critical role so many different animals play in a forest ecosystem, and how many of them have strong effects on the health of the trees the Aldryami spend their lives tending and protecting. I wonder if that's maybe a reflection of Glorantha's age as a setting, that it was made before many of us really interalized just how interconnected and interdependent something like a forest is, instead imagining the trees as existing somehow independently of all the myriad things that live and die around them.

The entire existence of the "walking aldryami" (elves, runners, pixies) is about independence of the Forest from any animals. While the animals may help with grooming the forests, the forest can do without them.

Still, it can be safely assumed that Glorantha has these over-specialized synergies between certain plants and insects, birds or other beasts. Mythically, this may be based on marriages or similar adoptions of beast life.

No idea how much the symbiosis between the forest and its fungal network beneath applies to Glorantha. If it exists, there must be myths about the roles of Aldrya and Mee Vorala, or the command of their shared father Flamal.

[Joerg]

14 hours ago, Malin said:

Perhaps before this, trees and flowers were pollinated by wind (spirits), with no need for animals. But in the lesser darkness, before everything turned completely sideways, bees might have started to pollinate plants as well. Bumblebees in particular, can handle cold. Perhaps elves originally saw this as the bees stealing from them, making honey, as they didn't see a need for that ecological niche, and the trolls were already eating them? Were bees eating flowers too? Getting honey from them? I can see how they would come to that conclusion. Bees bad.

Monomythically, there was no wind to carry pollen, but there was light which would have been able to levitate it.

We know that creatures of Darkness invaded the surface world already long before the devastation of Wonderhome - Gash and Gore for instance were extremely familiar with the backdoor towards the Surface. There is another myth about the ascent of the ants, and how they were cursed to shrink to their (real world) size.

Nactar of flowers and berries are rewards for those who spread pollen and seeds. With the walking aldryami, you have pollinating pixies and seed-spreading runners and possibly elves.

[Malin]

15 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Monomythically, there was no wind to carry pollen, but there was light which would have been able to levitate it.

True, I forgot it took a while for the wind to get there, I was thinking too much of real-world stuff and the good old gymnosperms.

Though considering there was little change before the wind got there, perhaps at that time there was no cross-pollination at all? Perhaps the wind was the one that started to change things up first, wild pollination everywhere! The horror...

[French Desperate WindChild]

Bees, as insect in glorantha, are from gorakiki. They produce honey and that's all. No, they are not actor of this strange word you use "pollination"

Genert, Flamal, Ernalda and any earth deity created trees, grass, flowers, plants. And trees, grass, flowers, any plants reproduce themselves  with the power of growing. They don't need any thing else than the power of the Earth Queen. Of course the Ernalda's husband-protectors may help to fertilize her, offering a part of their power to the Earth. But her subjects don't need any... beast ??? pouah !

Do you really believe that humans need trolls to have children ? Or merfolk needs dwarves ? nah

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Do you really believe that humans need trolls to have children

humans don't need alcohol to have children, but it sure helps

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Bees, as insect in glorantha, are from gorakiki. They produce honey and that's all. No, they are not actor of this strange word you use "pollination"

I beg to differ. Pollen is another thing besides hunny and wax which you get from keeping bees. (There's also propolis and royal jelly.) It is the blessing of Flamal, spread by sunlight, wind, beasts, and aldryami. And it may carry the curse of Aldrya or Flamal, an old gift by Malia.

 

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Genert, Flamal, Ernalda and any earth deity created trees, grass, flowers, plants. And trees, grass, flowers, any plants reproduce themselves  with the power of growing. They don't need any thing else than the power of the Earth Queen. Of course the Ernalda's husband-protectors may help to fertilize her, offering a part of their power to the Earth. But her subjects don't need any... beast ??? pouah !

So you are telling me that there was no need for Aether to ejaculate (through) Lodril deep into the Broad Earth (Gata) to sire Umath? Next thing will be that calves are grown in meadows, and have no need for milk? Sorry to have to tell you this,  but we are not in the Green Age any more since there is a sky to look up to.

Ever since the start of the Golden Age, people need to spread the seeds of the grains (and pseudocereals) of the Land Goddesses to be able to have a harvest. Ever since the dismemberment of Yelm, magic has been required, too.

Weeds and molds might be a  slightly different matter, weeds being the curse of Trickster or the challenge of the Lady of the Wild, and molds something Dark.

Also, the "created" for your list of Earth/Plant/Fertility entities means they Grew or they Birthed/Sired such.

 

 

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Do you really believe that humans need trolls to have children ? Or merfolk needs dwarves ? nah

 

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Do you really believe that humans need trolls to have children ? Or merfolk needs dwarves ?

Or women men! 😉

[g33k]

11 hours ago, Leingod said:

Mythologically, that's because horses started out as hippogriffs, with the horse goddess losing her wings, claws, etc. in the Gods War...

Yes; I know.  The details are unimportant to my point that -- in Glorantha -- the myths override our Earthly/real-world science, our "truths" and our categories.

Want Bees who are Light/Sky/Sun insects, not Darkness-aligned?  Sounds good!  Write a myth for it!
 

12 hours ago, Leingod said:

...

The general rule of thumb, IIRC, is that Invertebrates = Darkness...

Yep.

But don't insist that rule of thumb be universal... or you risk a Glorantha that's all thumbs!  😁