Caprati & Du Tumerine

[Erol of Backford]

We are looking for reasons the Caprati do not like trolls. We are not saying they do so but wish to create this dislike if they do not. Maybe they just don't like nonhumans? Would that include Agimori or they human enough?

Besides that trolls are suspected when a caravan gets raided going north from Karse to Sartar what else might be a reason the Caprati do not like trolls? Is the family against them traditionally out west and so they brought their dislike with them when coming east?

In the Beyond the Building Wall the statement that they'd hire nonhumans as a last resort gives the impression they are not liking trolls... or non humans at all.

Based on non canon Tales 13 the Du Tumerine were outbid for the grain monopoly in Nochet by the Caprati in about 1603 (perfect for our campaign). Its different than what is posted in the Nochet book but the Caprati getting the grain monopoly in or about 1603 is better for us. (YGWV)

Also regarding the Sword and Shield. Women, even horali wives, are not permitted entry. What if the daughter of a Caprati who was a commander of a heavy cavalry company of Aoelians from the Plateau came into Notchet. If she and her retinue walked in would the Sword and Shield owners not make exception? Seems strange to me that any establishment wouldn't allow a woman in or around in Nochet... if she were dressed in typical men's garb maybe they'd let her in?

Assuming the Caprati are sided with the Red Earth faction how are they impacted when the Lunars are driven out of Nochet or does that not affect them or the Du Tumerine?

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Erol of Backford

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

We are looking for reasons the Caprati do not like trolls.

The basic reason for most Malkioni is that trolls are krjalki, just like Chaos and other non-humans. It doesn't need to be anything more beyond that.

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Based on non canon Tales 13 the Du Tumerine were outbid for the grain monopoly in Nochet by the Caprati in about 1603

The main issue I had with the portrayal in Tales 13 was that suddenly these Malkioni families were getting monopolies and dominating aspects of Nochet. In reality the great Houses of Nochet would never have allowed outsiders any power of that level. 

My take on both these families was to put them into a much smaller context, though still rivals. (Obviously, I did not have the Caprati arrive until more recently, e.g. 1619, as Hendira continues her desperate search for allies to counter Greymane's threat.) So, for instance, the "grain monopoly" would certainly not be city-wide. Farmlands and grain supplies are clearly by the Great Houses and the Ernalda and Esrola temples. But Queen Valinalda in 1603 (who is a member of House Delainaeo, one of the big 5 Houses) might have granted a "monopoly" on collecting tolls on grain coming through the South Gate (i.e. through Meldektown). And that would generate some level of wealth for whoever got the monopoly.

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Also regarding the Sword and Shield.

Presume this is some Tales-related item. Obviously, in Nochet, women rule and dominate all Houses (except for Heortling clans settled there and these Malkioni families). Even the Malkioni families are changing (e.g. the Caprati marry a "treaty" wife from House Zirandarn, one of the 20 noble Houses of Nochet. And she's not about to take on Malkioni ways and give up her Nochetite prerogatives).

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Assuming the Caprati are sided with the Red Earth faction how are they impacted when the Lunars are driven out of Nochet or does that not affect them or the Du Tumerine?

Yes, given that the treaty wife, Elena Zirandarn, and her family are staunchly pro-Red Earth Alliance, that would suggest the Caprati are aligned with them as well. However, they might plead ignorance. Or, since Meldektown (and both Caprati and du Tumerine compounds) are outside Nochet itself, they might simply say that the Lunars occupied their homes (which they likely did). If they joined the Red Earth Alliance/Lunars at the Battle of Pennel Ford, then they likely took significant losses there and would have been punished by removal of privileges by Queen Samastina. If they did not join that fight, then they might claim neutrality (and perhaps even got into Harrek's good graces somehow to boost their fortunes).

[Erol of Backford]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

The basic reason for most Malkioni is that trolls are krjalki, just like Chaos and other non-humans. It doesn't need to be anything more beyond that.

Per the GtG p.129 Moving deeper into Ralios, Arkat and his army found that many barbarian nations and non-humans had embraced the cult. Since non-humans were
uncommon in Seshnela and Brithos, the invaders called the forces arrayed against them the League of Monsters, using the word krjalki to describe their nonhuman enemies as a single group. Simple enough, will run with that!

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

The main issue I had with the portrayal in Tales 13 was that suddenly these Malkioni families were getting monopolies and dominating aspects of Nochet.

Simple enough to limit it to grain coming from the Heortland Plateau so not a game breaker in the least.

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Presume this is some Tales-related item.

Might have been but is listed as M24 p.187 Women, even horali wives, are not permitted entry. Not a big deal, YGMV, assuming warrior and or high ranking women would be permitted. 

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

However, they might plead ignorance. Or, since Meldektown (and both Caprati and du Tumerine compounds) are outside Nochet itself, they might simply say that the Lunars occupied their homes (which they likely did).

We'll play it that way as we don't want to be in cahoots with the Lunars...

[g33k]

34 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

... listed as M24 p.187 ...

What source is "M24" ?
Please & thank you!

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

What source is "M24" ?
Please & thank you!

It’s a Meldektown location in Nochet: Queen of Cities.

[g33k]

10 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

It’s a Meldektown location in Nochet: Queen of Cities.

ahhhh... a map-location reference; TYVM Nick!

[Nick Brooke]

Malkioni are basically human supremacists. It's the nasty downside of being "Humanist," I suppose. 😜

[metcalph]

10 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

We are looking for reasons the Caprati do not like trolls. We are not saying they do so but wish to create this dislike if they do not. Maybe they just don't like nonhumans? Would that include Agimori or they human enough?

The Caprati come from Seshnela.  Right next to Seshnela is Guhan.  About seventy years ago, the Seshnegi fought a war against them which resulted in the Uz Eats Wizards (and their King too FWIW).  Nobody needs a better reason to hate trolls than to have an ancestor dishonoured in that battle.

 

[MOB]

5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The main issue I had with the portrayal in Tales 13 was that suddenly these Malkioni families were getting monopolies and dominating aspects of Nochet. In reality the great Houses of Nochet would never have allowed outsiders any power of that level. 

6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

So, for instance, the "grain monopoly" would certainly not be city-wide. Farmlands and grain supplies are clearly by the Great Houses and the Ernalda and Esrola temples. But Queen Valinalda in 1603 (who is a member of House Delainaeo, one of the big 5 Houses) might have granted a "monopoly" on collecting tolls on grain coming through the South Gate (i.e. through Meldektown). And that would generate some level of wealth for whoever got the monopoly.

I think you must have misread Tales #13. The monopoly granted is only for sea-going trade*; my thinking when writing this some 25 years ago was the along the lines of the trading relationships the Genoese and Venetians had with the Byzantines. I agree with you that the foreigner Capratis and Du Tumerines would have nothing to do whatsoever with grain supplies to the city, or collecting tolls etc.

*writing this today, I would make this even more clear: the monopoly granted is only for sea-going trade, e.g. out into the Ocean and beyond. The Great Houses of Nochet control and monopolise domestic commerce inside the Choralinthor Sea.

[Darius West]

11 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Also regarding the Sword and Shield. Women, even horali wives, are not permitted entry. What if the daughter of a Caprati who was a commander of a heavy cavalry company of Aoelians from the Plateau came into Notchet. If she and her retinue walked in would the Sword and Shield owners not make exception? Seems strange to me that any establishment wouldn't allow a woman in or around in Nochet... if she were dressed in typical men's garb maybe they'd let her in?

Perhaps its a men's only establishment in a Matriarchy for a reason? Much like women have safe spaces in our cities?  A place where "Stepford husbands" can go and detox from the mind poisons their wives feed them to keep them docile, and fill up on beer instead?

[Nick Brooke]

It’s a Malkioni soldiers’ bar. They’re weird foreigners who do things differently. If you’re a downtrodden Esrolian who wants to hang out with Malkioni soldiers, you’ve got issues.

[jajagappa]

10 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Might have been but is listed as M24 p.187 Women, even horali wives, are not permitted entry. Not a big deal, YGMV, assuming warrior and or high ranking women would be permitted. 

Hah! Forget my own entries after awhile. 🙂  Not sure what I drew upon for this one now (probably just the most un-Esrolian western cultural customs), but this was an explicit prohibition across the board - as Nick notes, it's definitely a weird Malkioni thing.

6 hours ago, MOB said:

I think you must have misread Tales #13. The monopoly granted is only for sea-going trade*; my thinking when writing this some 25 years ago was the along the lines of the trading relationships the Genoese and Venetians had with the Byzantines. I agree with you that the foreigner Capratis and Du Tumerines would have nothing to do whatsoever with grain supplies to the city, or collecting tolls etc.

*writing this today, I would make this even more clear: the monopoly granted is only for sea-going trade, e.g. out into the Ocean and beyond. The Great Houses of Nochet control and monopolise domestic commerce inside the Choralinthor Sea.

It's been awhile since I read, so misremembered is probably more like it! I'd likely tighten it further to sea-going grain trade to Seshnela. The trade with Melib is in my mind simply too lucrative for the Great Houses to give up. 

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by jajagappa

[Jeff]

7 hours ago, MOB said:

I think you must have misread Tales #13. The monopoly granted is only for sea-going trade*; my thinking when writing this some 25 years ago was the along the lines of the trading relationships the Genoese and Venetians had with the Byzantines. I agree with you that the foreigner Capratis and Du Tumerines would have nothing to do whatsoever with grain supplies to the city, or collecting tolls etc.

*writing this today, I would make this even more clear: the monopoly granted is only for sea-going trade, e.g. out into the Ocean and beyond. The Great Houses of Nochet control and monopolise domestic commerce inside the Choralinthor Sea.

Writing this today, I doubt we'd say that the founder of sea-trade at its height and center of the sailor cult would give monopoly over sea-going trade to foreign barbarians. Nochet is more Genoa or Venice than it is Constantinople. 

[Nick Brooke]

The Esrolian House which originally held the monopoly lost it to a godless Westerner in a rash gamble at Casino Town. Job done.

[MOB]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Writing this today, I doubt we'd say that the founder of sea-trade at its height and center of the sailor cult would give monopoly over sea-going trade to foreign barbarians. Nochet is more Genoa or Venice than it is Constantinople. 

Yeah, the Nochet I wrote up in the mid-1990s very much has a Constantinople vibe. Which I shamelessly and cheerfully just switched to Sog City when we wrote that metropolis up several years later for How the West Was One. 

[Interestingly, back on the original point, even when the post-Manzikert Byzantine Empire was at its apogee under Manuel II, definitely a if not the major power of the region, they granted trading monopolies to the Genoese and Venetians. But this was always for trade beyond the empire's borders. Ship trade inside the empire was reserved for proper Romans. My analogy here is the Choralinthor Sea.]

Edited September 18, 2023 by MOB

[Jeff]

17 minutes ago, MOB said:

Yeah, the Nochet I wrote up in the mid-1990s very much has a Constantinople vibe. Which I shamelessly and cheerfully just switched to Sog City when we wrote that metropolis up several years later for How the West Was One. 

[Interestingly, back on the original point, even when the post-Manzikert Byzantine Empire was at its apogee under Manuel II, definitely a if not the major power of the region, they granted trading monopolies to the Genoese and Venetians. But this was always for trade beyond the empire's borders. Ship trade inside the empire was reserved for proper Romans. My analogy here is the Choralinthor Sea.]

Yeah, but with Nochet they kind of invented oversea trade in the 1580s and I suspect you are far more likely to see the opposite - Nochet merchants given the monopoly over overseas trade. In fact we know that is how it works in Melib, and maybe even Kralorela.

[Jeff]

I actually think Mob's analogy with the Genoese and Venetians is good - I just think that they are Nochet, and not the Western cities.

[Professor Chaos]

Isn't it much more likely that the monopoly is on grain IMPORTED into Seshnela from Esrolia and was granted by the Seshnelans who as xenophobic misogynist bigots would hardly want to deal directly with those brazen Esrolian harlots? 

Of course from the Esrolian supplier POV the Capratis would be mere compradors - local agents who relieve them of having to deal directly with the odious Rokari. 

 

 

 

[Joerg]

Still the Quinpolic League and Handra soon followed the rush of reconstituion of the overseas trade, a bit like the Phoenician city states after the Bronze Age Collapse, rivalled by some of the Greeks and the Lesbos people who settled Etruria.

I can believe a grain monopoly into Quinpolic ports, not so much on the Nochet side but a strict set of rules for Quinpolic and Tanier basin merchants about legal purchases. Grain being a bulk good, I don't see much profit in smuggling it, so Esrolian grain merchants might either sail on to Vadeli or Loskalmi ports, or load their less valuable export on Quinpolic ships while keeping the trade with les bulky luxury items on their galleys. It could be some form of protecting Seshnegi land owning nobility while allowing them to switch to cash crops rather than basic food.

The monopoly on Melib is by edict of the priest-king Harstar, in payment for Kethaelan protection from the Somash high priest Pubnashab (or his predecessor). IIRC the Kethaelan port was not so much founded but re-activated a year or two before his eviction from the mainland, as the few survivors of the Suam Chow probe probably had to return in badly damaged ships or dinghies, with Lop Nur not necessarily regarded as a safe place to return to.

 

[Professor Chaos]

Also why would Seshnela be exporting grain to Esrolia which is presumably the most fertile land in all Glorantha with the most potent earth, grain and fertility goddesses? 

Barring some catastrophe such as the Windstop or a particularly destructive war, post-Opening Esrolia will like Egypt in the Roman era always be exporting grain to feed the cities that are easily accessible by sea.

Also remember Glorantha is (still!) unfeasibly small - the distances between Genertelan ports are relatively trivial compared to those that RW ancient and medieval merchants routinely traversed and so unit costs even of bulk imports and exports are significantly reduced.

 

 

 

 

[Professor Chaos]

As an example Alexandria to Rome is 2,600 km by sea which according to https://orbis.stanford.edu/ was 3 weeks of plain sailing in the summer. 

IIRC the whole of Genertela is just 5,000km from W to E and Nochet is roughly in the middle and so you can theoretically sail to either Loskalm or Kralorela in a month. 

Incidentally Martin's (excellent!) new book has AFAICS no discussion of the grain trade at all other than to mention that there are indeed Esrolian grain ships - although according to the tables here and in The Guide nobody in Glorantha seems to actually import or export grain!

The only way I can rationalise this knowing what we do know about maritime trade in the ancient world is that like the Rome-Alexandria grain trade it would be carried out not by normal merchants but by large specialist grain ships that carried nothing else - and in which a periplus aimed at general merchants would thus not have much interest. 

 

 

[Erol of Backford]

18 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Caprati come from Seshnela.  Right next to Seshnela is Guhan.  About seventy years ago, the Seshnegi fought a war against them which resulted in the Uz Eats Wizards (and their King too FWIW).  Nobody needs a better reason to hate trolls than to have an ancestor dishonoured in that battle.

Enough said, love it.

18 hours ago, MOB said:

*writing this today, I would make this even more clear: the monopoly granted is only for sea-going trade, e.g. out into the Ocean and beyond. The Great Houses of Nochet control and monopolise domestic commerce inside the Choralinthor Sea.

So we'll stay away from sea-going trade and say each city would negotiate trade deals for whatever they send to Nochet, not really worried about what is traded just that the deal is made as it links Nochet via trade to a city on the Plateau. It'd be the same for most of the smaller cities along the cost, we wanted to use Rollo and his 2 masted barge to carry goods to-from the Plateau to Nochet.  Trade Talk  12 p.13 (one of my favorite issues)

 

[M Helsdon]

10 hours ago, Professor Chaos said:

Incidentally Martin's (excellent!) new book has AFAICS no discussion of the grain trade at all other than to mention that there are indeed Esrolian grain ships - although according to the tables here and in The Guide nobody in Glorantha seems to actually import or export grain!

I mention that some places, particularly Esrolia, export their excess harvest. At this time the grain trade by sea is small and local in extent - or so I have understood from previous posts by Jeff. 

So far as I am aware, there is no trade in grain in Glorantha equivalent to Athens' reliance on the grain from Greek Crimea or Sicily, or on Rome's from Egypt.

Edited September 19, 2023 by M Helsdon

[M Helsdon]

13 hours ago, Professor Chaos said:

IIRC the whole of Genertela is just 5,000km from W to E and Nochet is roughly in the middle and so you can theoretically sail to either Loskalm or Kralorela in a month. 

Not as simple as that, I'm afraid. The duration of a voyage depends on the prevailing winds, which vary by season. In Summer you could sail from Rome to Alexandria in ten to fourteen days, but sailing from Alexandria to Rome could take months. The Etesian winds in the eastern Mediterranean were a major factor in trade and war, they would, very approximately, help you sail south, but sailing north was slow and difficult.

Much the same will be true in Genertela where the prevailing wind for the sailing season will be from the west and southwest. Sailing from Seshnela to Choralinthor Bay might take a week or so, but sailing back the other way, tacking using the daily winds blowing on and offshore will take much much longer, and you'll be sailing against the cold current from the Neleomi.

Even in the Mirrorsea, the winds, even though fairly calm, will have an impact, and make the use of merchant galleys more popular, but will be more expensive because you need to pay the rowers.

Edited September 19, 2023 by M Helsdon

[Jeff]

Nochet does not need to import grain from outside of the Holy Country. Esrolia supplies more than enough grain for Nochet, Rhigos, and the City of Wonders (before it was destroyed).

Additionally, I doubt the sea-borne grain trade is all that important. Remember, humans only found a way to bypass the Closing in 1580 - only 45 years ago! If you are a sailor, there's a good chance your grandparents - maybe even your parents - remember when the seas were Opened. As I wrote last year on the RQ Facebook site:

It is approximately 4250 kilometers from the Holy Country to Pamaltela, although most sailors travel clockwise around the Homeward Ocean, taking about 3 weeks to get to Maslo, give or take a few days.

To put that in context, the distances involved are significantly less than crossing the Atlantic from continental Europe to the Caribbean or North America. However, such travel is neither easy nor routine - the Closing of the Seas was overcome a little more than 40 years ago. For comparison, Columbus' first voyage to the Caribbean was in 1492; 40 years later Pizarro sacked Cuzco. However, our Genertela explorers and traders do not enjoy a significant military, technological, or magical advantage over the civilizations of Pamaltela. We generally get merchant entrepots rather than conquests. That being said, piracy is a great concern, and the Wolf Pirates are now numerous and strong enough to seize places by force.

In places like Nochet, Handra, Noloswal, and Dosakayo, trade with Pamaltela (and other overseas lands) is an important part of life and exotic fashions, spices, and other luxuries are going to be known and easily found (albeit expensive). Nochet has had more than a generation of such trade, and the other big Genertelan ports are catching up.

In Boldhome or Furthest, such trade is rarer and more sporadic, but it is present. Issaries caravans do bring overseas goods over Dragon Pass and into the Lunar Empire, with huge profits. Within the Lunar Heartlands, Pamaltela is a distant imaginary fairytale.