Seshnela Questions

[Richard S.]

Hi y'all. I'm running an RQG campaign in Seshnela and have a few questions:

1. What are the caste restrictions for Holari? I know some of the rules for the other castes (no fighting for Dronars, no manual labor for Talars, big hats for Zzaburi, etc.), but I've never seen even a partial list for how the Horali are supposed to live.

2. What do y'all think the most common form of Talar ancestor worship is? Daka Fal variants like the ones in CoRL, or specific cults like Talor, Gerlant, or Issaries?

3. Similar question, but what cults should the Dronars mostly use? I'm waffling between Grain Goddess (Seshna) and Daka Fal for the primary one, but I'd like some more input.

4. How common is iron? I know it's more common in the west, but how big a deal would it be if, say, a character started out with an iron weapon and piece of armor?

Any other general thoughts or advice would be appreciated too. Thanks!

Edited September 19, 2023 by Richard S.

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

2. What do y'all think the most common form of Talar ancestor worship is? Daka Fal variants like the ones in CoRL, or specific cults like Talor, Gerlant, or Issaries?

I think the Seshnegi ancestors were originally spirits like Surenslib and Votank in the Daka Fal Cult writeup in  Cults of RuneQuest: the Lightbringers.  Over time and through Wizard research in the Dawn Age (alluded to in that paragraph in the Daka Fal cult writeup), they became associated with the Big Gods.  Hence Aerlit, the father of Malkion, originally provided one storm related rune spell to his worshippers but today, he is worshipped as a subcult of Orlanth in Seshnela (to confuse matters, the Seshnegi refer to the entire cult of Orlanth as Aerlit).  

There are still ancestors that are worshipped through the rites of Daka Fal today (I think the local name for him is Malkion the Old but the contempuous wizards call him Daka Fal because of longstanding cult tensions).  A noble would think nothing of worshipping at a temple of Aerlit or Seshna Likita and then going to the priest-shaman of Daka Fal and worshipping some other ancestor instead.

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

3. Similar question, but what cults should the Dronars mostly use? I'm waffling between Grain Goddess (Seshna) and Daka Fal for the primary one, but I'd like some more input.

Grain Goddesses, Barntar, the Lowfires etc.  I think ancestral worship (ie Aerlit) is a prerogative of the nobility and that the Dronars can only act as lay members in the ancestral cults.  I also think most of the magic obtained in the temples is syphoned off to be used by the local wizards.  (Are the Noble temples to their ancestors similarly treated?  Don't be silly)  

Some Dronars might serve the Wizards directly as Hunters (either of Monsters or Spirits or both).  Think the Winchester Brothers or Scooby-Doo.

A few dronars might be condemned and their "execution" is initiating into Humakt.  That way, the Nobility can mobilize a few more troops without the Wizards getting antsy.

 

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Richard S. said:

3. Similar question, but what cults should the Dronars mostly use? I'm waffling between Grain Goddess (Seshna) and Daka Fal for the primary one, but I'd like some more input.

Grain goddess and Barntar for farmers, Waha and Eiritha for herders. Additionally, the Lowfires, city cults, the River deities, some ancestors, spirit cults.

2 hours ago, Richard S. said:

2. What do y'all think the most common form of Talar ancestor worship is? Daka Fal variants like the ones in CoRL, or specific cults like Talor, Gerlant, or Issaries?

Likely like the variants in CoRL where the founding ancestor is someone like Talor, Gerlant, etc.

 

 

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, Richard S. said:

I've never seen even a partial list for how the Horali are supposed to live.

No manual labour for profit (unless the boss says so), shave your head and grow a cool moustache (maybe stroke them both for the feel of it), be armed at all times, wear red, and join a war society — which (if you are into ancestor worship) gives you a beast ancestor? [GtG, pages 49 and 51]

Spoiler

Soldier (Horali): Soldiers are called horali and constitute the “red caste”. They are professional soldiers subject to the commands of talars and zzaburi. Horali may not labour with their hands for profit, except with the permission of their talars. Their job is to defend the countryside, fight wars, and enforce the law of the talars. Horali serve as a standing army, police, guards, rangers, and tax collectors.

In Seshnela, soldiers belong to war societies, most of which claim descent from a Martial Beast. The best known are the Lion, Mammoth, Wolf, Snake, Horse, Deer, and Bull. Each war society is divided into Regiments, groups of extended families headed by a captain.

The Seshnelans are notorious for their sensuality, especially among the Noble and Soldier castes
— p. 49

Soldiers wear martial attire; the precise attire depends on their war society, although the colour red is preferred. All members of the Soldier caste must be armed with a weapon at all times, and sleep with a weapon; women of the caste often wear distinctive curved daggers. In combat, they typically wear a corslet, greaves, shield, and a helmet. Beards are rare, but several war societies sport thick, bushy moustaches. Several societies shave their heads, completely or partially.
— p.51

[metcalph]

On starting out with iron, the real question is whether the weapon or armour is enchanted or not.  Unenchanted iron may be commplace but I've a feeling they are handed out to people who suck at spirit magic. Enchanted iron would be much rarer and borne by nobles and horali weaponmasters. 

I do gave an idle thought about how some Seshnegi can ignore the presence of iron when casting magic (probably caste magic or a Humakti gift) but use its defensive properties for spells cast against them.  The only drawback is in the case of being unconscious and in dire need of Heal 6.

[metcalph]

7 hours ago, Richard S. said:

1. What are the caste restrictions for Holari? I know some of the rules for the other castes (no fighting for Dronars, no manual labor for Talars, big hats for Zzaburi, etc.), but I've never seen even a partial list for how the Horali are supposed to live.

The Code of War - Guide p407

 

 

[Joerg]

The Tanisorans (not the peninsular Seshnegi) did receive the Lightbringer religion under the Dari Alliance, so there is a reason why Theyalan deities would be established in the Tanier valley. Still, I wonder why Barntar would be the plow god here, when the Malkioni had extensive contact (though often hostile) with aspects of the Lodril cult, whether Ladaral (Laddie) quenched by the Neliomi current using Brithini aid, or Turos quenched by Oronin. Lodril or a son of Lodril might be a better choice for the plowman's deity, also when we talk about the rice cultivation in the Tanier valley.

[metcalph]

Some preliminary thinking.

Assume a thousand Seshnegi. 

Genertela boxed set figures gives us:

• 50 wizards, healers and scribes
• 50 soldiers
• 10 lords
• 390 commoners.

I have my doubts about some of the figures but that's not important right now.

The community has two major temples - one to Seshna Likita and the other to the Noble Ancestor.   There's also a Shaman Priest to Daka Fal to honor the other ancestors.  All commoners and soldiers worship these Gods as lay members.  Failure to do so is a insulting the Nobles and harshly punished.  The Nobles alone are permitted to be initiates which means that priestly duties take up a far amount of the time of the ruling family.  Since these duties largely happen to be the same as rule, this is not normally a problem.

Every season (assumption made by me here, the source material Gods of Glorantha is unclear on this point), everybody worships the Invisible God kicking up a magic point to the wizards.  10% of that gets kicked up to Leplain, leaving 900 to spare.   That's about 50 days worth of magic that can be cast by the wizards (assuming a POW of 18).  The wizards can't spend it all on themselves as the others will feel left out.

A sorcery spell requires 12 mp to last for a week and 15 mp to last for a season.  Seasonal spells are more efficient magic pointwise but assuming an INT of 18, the max spell intensity is 3 as opposed to 6.  Daily spells allow for higher intensities but I doubt the wizard can be bothered casting daily blessings - kissing noble ass once a week and enduring soldier stench once a season sounds doable.

I assume the wizards cast weekly blessings on the nobles and seasonal blessings on the troops.  Additionally the Nobles have three sorcerous blessings (Attack, protection and a miscellaneous buff), while the soldiers will only have two (Attack and protection).  This requires 540 magic points a week for the Lords (10 lords x 18 mp spells x 3 blessings) and 225 points a week for the soldiers (50 soldiers x 18 mp spells x2 blessings / 8 weeks).  That leaves 135 magic points for the wizards, which is double the magic points normally available to them every week.  And from this, they are expected to cast big spells that benefit the community etc as well as magic for their own protection and research.  What are they meant to do?  Tap?

So what's left.  Taxing the temples.  No, not the Noble temples but the commoners.  A commoner temple to the Grain Goddess (which is distinct from the Noble temple to the Earth Goddess) would have 580 farmers who as lay members and initiates provide enough for a major temple.  That's 580 magic points a season.  To maintain a shrine only requires 75 lay members and initiates.  So what the Wizards could do is to syphon magically the worship, leaving enough for basic religion.  So 500 magic points gets collected from the temple once a season, yielding another 60 magic points a week.  

Other commoner temples being smaller can be taxed more harshly.  Worshippers at a temple to Gustbran might have to spend 5 magic points a season instead of the standard one or two just in order to maintain their shrine status when they might have qualified for minor temple.  

 

 

 

 

[soltakss]

13 hours ago, Richard S. said:

1. What are the caste restrictions for Holari? I know some of the rules for the other castes (no fighting for Dronars, no manual labor for Talars, big hats for Zzaburi, etc.), but I've never seen even a partial list for how the Horali are supposed to live.

According to the Glorantha Wiki: He was tasked with defending his three brothers, in return for their support; He was forbidden from productive labour other than that of war; He was sworn to obey the Talars and the Zzaburi.

13 hours ago, Richard S. said:

2. What do y'all think the most common form of Talar ancestor worship is? Daka Fal variants like the ones in CoRL, or specific cults like Talor, Gerlant, or Issaries?

I'd go with Daka Fal variants like Biselenslib and SurEnslib, but following particular ancestor heroes. They might have some other spells as well, either divine or sorcery.

 

13 hours ago, Richard S. said:

3. Similar question, but what cults should the Dronars mostly use? I'm waffling between Grain Goddess (Seshna) and Daka Fal for the primary one, but I'd like some more input.

Maybe Seshna, Orlanth (Humat, one of Seshna's husbands), Ernalda, other farmer deities. They are probably restricted as to which deities they can worship, so no war deities, no trade deities, no ruling deities.

[metcalph]

On the subject of ancestors:

Quote

In other distant lands, such as Seshnela in the Dawn
Ages, variations of this form of worship developed until they
made their ancestors surpass the mighty gods in power, or
else reduced the immortals into mere superhuman heroes or
multi-national ancestors.

Cults of RuneQuest: The Lightbringers p81

This suggests to me that the Seshnegi Ancestors developed from the Example Ancestor Cults described in Cults of RuneQuest: the Lightbringers p84 to p85 into conventional rune cults.  We have an example in reverse - Pamalt is worshipped by the Men-and-a-Half through an Ancestor Worship.  

A simple way of doing this would be to make the ancestor the subcult of a much greater rune cult and use the name of the ancestor for the rune cult within Seshnela.  The Wizards would know the difference but since they are heavily dependent on Noble largess, they have a huge incentive to be silent.   To preserve the importance of Ancestor Worship, Seshnegi Nobles that can claim descent from an Ancestor through the Male Line can worship him in a Rune Cult while Distaff Descendants can only worship him through Ancestor Worship (Cults of RuneQuest: the Earth Goddesses p122).  There are exceptions such as Seshna Likita or perhaps Krajiid (Guide p417) but I think since the line of the Flame Kings has died out, Gerlant can only be worshipped as an ancestor (which fits better than his prior description as a Saint).

There's seven houses.  I'm tempted to pair them with the husband protectors of Ernalda using names from Seshnegi mythology.  Aerlit for example is is a Storm God associated with Mount Aerlit in Nolos so I'm inclined to make them the main cult of the Hadelstolids, Arsonids and Estaurenids. who are said to be related.  Making Ehilm the main cult of the Ballifids would give a good mythical reason for the numerous revolts in the south.    

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Daka Fal variants like Biselenslib and SurEnslib

Interesting. Do you mean that game-mechanically they are Daka Fal variants? In concept, the named entities seem quite different: SurEnslib is quite a grand deity — she “raised the deep earth above the waters and sent the four snakes out to make the rivers and raise the sky” — but poor old Daka Fal is just some dead bloke (not a god, more of a Minos figure).

[Brian Duguid]

16 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Any other general thoughts or advice would be appreciated too. Thanks!

I'm just checking, but hopefully you are already familiar with @M Helsdon's Men of the West, because if not, it's a hugely accessible resource for much of this stuff. The section on the Seshnelan Holari covers several of the caste restrictions already mentioned in this thread, along with details of the Martial Beast Societies, illustrations etc.

http://tiny.cc/MotW

[French Desperate WindChild]

20 hours ago, Richard S. said:

1. What are the caste restrictions for

in fact, I ask myself if the "right focus" should be on restrictions or on permission

then, it seems to me easier : hrolari fight, escort, watch, guard, ...

the question then could be are hrolari able to smith or should they ask/order dronars to smith what they need. Or any things "borderline" between warrior activity and craft activity

 

I imagine then the rules very simple 

Dronari have only two rules:  1) never do what other castes do 2) always do what others (or only Talars ?) order

Hrolari have only two rules: 1)  always do what Talars order 2) if no Talars, train if no ennemy, fight if ennemy

Talars have only two rules: 1) Lead everyone 2) Follow religious instruction from Zzaburi

Zzaburi have only two rules: 1) Study/lead magic/religion 2) always do what Talars order (if not religious business)

 

that what I understand of the west, the question is about the limits :

- maybe smith (or heal, or ...)  is a taboo for some hrolari  but not for some other, depending on the sect, or the warrior society, or their Talar) 

- what about money ? who collect the taxes ? is it a management role (aka Talar), or money is necessary but ugly, then it is a dronar with hrolari guards (to protect the taxes from bandits and from the collector 😛 )

- maybe in some land, Zzaburi must obey in all cases even for religious business

I may be completely wrong however

[Jape_Vicho]

21 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Waha and Eiritha for herders.

I get Eiritha but Waha outside of Prax? O.O I thought he was only known to to the descendants of his covenant. Was he present anywhere else? 

[Richard S.]

Well good to know I'm just a dumbass on the Horali front; I've read most of what y'all are suggesting, I'd apparently just forgotten the whole lot 🙃. Thanks though.

8 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

I'm just checking, but hopefully you are already familiar with @M Helsdon's Men of the West, because if not, it's a hugely accessible resource for much of this stuff. The section on the Seshnelan Holari covers several of the caste restrictions already mentioned in this thread, along with details of the Martial Beast Societies, illustrations etc.

Very familiar, it's an excellent book.

12 hours ago, metcalph said:

I assume the wizards cast weekly blessings on the nobles and seasonal blessings on the troops.  Additionally the Nobles have three sorcerous blessings (Attack, protection and a miscellaneous buff), while the soldiers will only have two (Attack and protection).  This requires 540 magic points a week for the Lords (10 lords x 18 mp spells x 3 blessings) and 225 points a week for the soldiers (50 soldiers x 18 mp spells x2 blessings / 8 weeks).  That leaves 135 magic points for the wizards, which is double the magic points normally available to them every week.  And from this, they are expected to cast big spells that benefit the community etc as well as magic for their own protection and research.  What are they meant to do?  Tap?

Personally I think the biggest MP sinks for seasonal ceremonies would be community-wide things like crop blessings or driving off bad weather/pests/spirits, maybe a handful of healings and other very visible demonstrations. Individual combat blessings feel like they'd only be done as-needed, maybe in more impromptu worship ceremonies before the community Horali go into battle. Thanks for the figures on caste proportions, I hadn't seen those before.

1 hour ago, Jape_Vicho said:

I get Eiritha but Waha outside of Prax? O.O I thought he was only known to to the descendants of his covenant. Was he present anywhere else? 

He's the god of butchers to the rest of the world. I don't think herders would worship him though, just the people preparing the meat, and very few would be initiates.

9 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Interesting. Do you mean that game-mechanically they are Daka Fal variants? In concept, the named entities seem quite different: SurEnslib is quite a grand deity — she “raised the deep earth above the waters and sent the four snakes out to make the rivers and raise the sky” — but poor old Daka Fal is just some dead bloke (not a god, more of a Minos figure).

Daka Fal is the ancestor of all mortals, the one who divided the living and the dead, and the judge of the dead. Feels fairly grand to me. In Runequest, his cult is the generic template for ancestor worship, and cults like SurEnslib, Biselenslib, and Votank are given as examples of specific ancestor cults that provide a unique rune spell in addition to Daka Fal's and have their own associated cults.

 

Thanks for the help everyone!

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

I get Eiritha but Waha outside of Prax?

Yes - have a look at the Lightbringer's book. Clearly Prax is his home, but he is also a broader god of butchery and presumably remains connected to Eiritha wherever there are herds. 

Alternately, if he is more localized to Prax/Dragon Pass, then there is likely an equivalent figure in the west who taught butchery to the folk to survive.

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Clearly Prax is his home, but he is also a broader god of butchery and presumably remains connected to Eiritha wherever there are herds. 

His magic would have to be adjusted outside of Prax. There should not be a restriction on healing as well.

[metcalph]

 

On the subject of the herder god in Seshnela, I think it's a son of Dronar rather than Waha as people were hunting and herding animals before the Gods War (cf the Entekosiad).  Waha is quite late mythically speaking to be the inventor of herding and butchery.  In RQ terms, I think the gods of farming and herding (calling them Cael and Abin for now) would be men's subcults within the cults of the Grain and Herd Goddesses, with Dronar as an associate cult.  There would also be a fishing god within the River cults.

 

[Mark Mohrfield]

At the risk of derailing this thread, since when have Seshnelans worshiped gods except for the Invisible God? I thought they were monotheists.

[Richard S.]

29 minutes ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

At the risk of derailing this thread, since when have Seshnelans worshiped gods except for the Invisible God? I thought they were monotheists.

They've been changed quite a bit since RQ3. Nowadays only the Zzaburi use sorcery, while the other castes use spirit and rune magic appropriate to their tasks. Generally they prefer ancestor worship, mistrusting gods, but sometimes they can be useful, and nowadays there's several groups of Malkioni with long histories of god worship; Seshnelan kingship even derives from Seshna Likita, the local grain goddess. A lot of the time this will be justified by reducing the god to merely a powerful ancestor, like how the Trader Princes worship Issaries, or the horali warrior societies worship Hsunchen totems. I think the only Malkioni groups that completely eschew the worship of gods are the New Hrestoli and Brithini.

If you go to the Well of Daliath and search "Malkioni" or "Malkionism" there's several posts that break it down better (mostly anything dated 2020+).

Edited September 21, 2023 by Richard S.

[mfbrandi]

18 minutes ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

At the risk of derailing this thread, since when have Seshnelans worshiped gods except for the Invisible God? I thought they were monotheists.

I can’t keep up with all the wrinkles in Malkionism, but if you think of the breadth of religious practice that falls under “Hinduism” or “Christianity” … mono- poly- heno- and atheistic.

There is this from Jeff a couple of years ago:

• In the Third Age, the main Malkioni schools no longer interact with the gods as equals, but also do not worship gods other than Malkion and his family, and a few important heroes (although it is argued by some Rokari philosophers that in many cases this has been a back-door to submission to lesser entities). Despite a strong current of ancestor worship in Malkionism (which also sometimes includes worship of gods), the Malkioni distrust the gods in general.

I suspect allowing Malkioni with rune magic is a munchkin thing: sorcery is too slow and boring — give me something that goes bang now!

Personally, I think it would be more fun if all the Malkioni said, “There is no god but God — and I am not even convinced that this ‘Malkion’ bloke is his prophet.” But we need a diversity of Gloranthas.

[metcalph]

48 minutes ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

At the risk of derailing this thread, since when have Seshnelans worshiped gods except for the Invisible God? I thought they were monotheists.

There's always been a difference between what the old rules said and what Greg's writings described.  Even the God Learners were described as worshipping Diros and Wachaza in their early years. Nowadays I don't view Malkioni as believers in the Invisible God - I view them as believers in the Wizards.  They believe whatever the Wizards tell them is good and adjure whatever the wizards tell them is bad.  The Wizards don't like the worship of Gods.  At the same time, they recognize that worship is unavoidable.  Therefore they carefully regulate what Gods may be worshipped and what Gods are to be forbidden.

Of course, the Malkioni being humans will have practices that fall significantly short of that ideal.  In Seshnela, the Wizards are heavily dependent on the Nobility for access to land, magical materials and worshipped energy of the populace (their own philosophy teaches them that such decisions are for the Nobles to make).  Therefore their decisions on what ought to be ends up pretty much favoring existing Noble practice.  

[Mark Mohrfield]

3 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

I suspect allowing Malkioni with rune magic is a munchkin thing: sorcery is too slow and boring — give me something that goes bang now!

If true, this is the sort of thing that makes me wish that HeroQuest/QuestWolds had been more financially successful. Though even that system sometimes resorted to unnecessarily mechanically differentiating the magic types IMO.

[Joerg]

12 hours ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

At the risk of derailing this thread, since when have Seshnelans worshiped gods except for the Invisible God? I thought they were monotheists.

Depends on which "Seshnela" we are talking about - the old peninsular Malkioni kingdom that inherited the Serpent King history with the Pendali and lots of local deities and demigods including Seshna Likita, Froalar the Serpent protector of the kingdom, Ifttala (slain by Hrestol), Aerlit (father of Malkion and of Damol), Basmol, Kraljiid, Damol (son of Aerlit and the daughter of Fenela - sister of Hrestol - and Duke Yadmov, another grandson of Malkion like Froalar).

The other Seshnela is the modern Bailifid kingdom in the Tanier valley, descendants of the Autarchy and the Dari Alliance, who have history both with the Old Gods of Ralios and the Theyalan missionaries who came to the Dari Alliance and made them part of the Bright Empire after the Sunstop.

On top of either, there were the God Learners, both with their Abiding Book message of monotheism picking up where the Silver Empire of the second century left off, see https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/greg-sez/the-kings-of-seshnela-part-one/. For the God Learner history or the Bailifides history, click the other links in that document.

While the orthodox God Learner message of the Abiding Book and the Return to Rightness Crusade (called the Makanist creed in e.g. The Middle Sea Empire and Revealed Mythologies) was indeed fueled by monotheist sentiments, the experimental side of the God Learners (strong in Jrustela, Slontos and Umathela, but tolerated and harvested in Old Seshnela) was all about messing with the ("lesser") gods of places or other peoples.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Joerg
Added God Learner heritage

[Godlearner]

18 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

I suspect allowing Malkioni with rune magic is a munchkin thing: sorcery is too slow and boring — give me something that goes bang now!

No, if this was the case, they would have not placed those slow and boring restrictions on it in the first place.