Seshnela Questions

[Jape_Vicho]

I think we won't know if the Rokari of the Late Third Age canonically worship gods or not at least until the Invisible God book comes out in a couple of years. For the moment, it's up to us. I think we can imagine the West as a gradient, with one extreme being a Zzaburi-controlled henotheism and the other being quasi-monotheism. I think both are very cool and valid, but personally prefer the latter.

My personal view is that most dronars only truly worship Makan, through the communal ceremonies. Then each subcaste has their own ancestor cults which are a mix of the teachings and life of Malkion, and ancestor worship to commune with their own forefathers. They also propitiate local gods and spirits under zzaburi and talar approval, but this is not considered true worship (no rune points or spells derived). These are the pure citizens of Seshnela, mainly the ones in the densely populated Tanier river basin, but even they can easily fall back into god-worship if the sorcerous rituals fail due to instability, incompetence, or bad luck. In the Tanisoran hinterlands, where population is less dense, and specially in the north-westernmost areas like March and Dangim, however, most dronars (and horali and talars for that matter) do worship gods. In the remote areas of Royal Seshnela those cults are forbidden and somewhat secret, but most level-headed Zzaburi know it's impossible for those areas to support pure malkionism yet, and thus they only try to quell the most menacing sprouts. In Dangim it's a different story; the natives are very loyal to their divine patrons, and refuse to obey strict malkioni law. This is troublesome and disgusting for most Seshnelan Zzaburi, but their Ralian bretheren are more tolerant, and most importantly, they are under heavy pressure from the Bailifes to just leave the locals be, as they want to keep ruling the province, and any repression would surely cause a devastating revolt. What does this mean in terms of magic? I imagine orthodox dronars can only cast spirit magic, except for the shaman-priests, who need to learn some rune spells in order to connect with their ancestors (axis mundi, summon ancestor, etc.). This may seem harsh, but what else do they need? Production and fertility are handled by the Zzaburi sorcery, and they and their homes protected by horali (aided by more sorcery from the wizards). Adventuring on their own is never a dronar job. If things get desperate, and they have to take up arms, they will be buffed by sorcery too, and most battle magic is spirit magic anyway. In the lands where divine worship, either occult or overt, is commonplace, dronars can have some rune magic, even though those cults aren't as powerful as the ones we see in Dragon Pass or Peloria (2-3 rune spells per cult Max.). As they dedicate more time, money and MP towards deities, fewer go to the Wizards, who are less efficient and therefore make the community more dependent on spirits and gods, creating a situation of "hake that eats its own tail", as we say in Spain.

Horali are probably given more freedom than dronars, as they are expected to have to act somewhat independently of communities and Wizards in some cases. Their religion, as well as participating in the communal ceremonies to Makan, are the War Societies. These are essentially watered-down and civilized versions of Hsunchmen cults, as we know. I think Odayla's cult from the Rulebook and the Lightbringers cult and Telmor from the Bestiary can be good stand-ins for the Bear and Wolf society respectively, and good examples to create your own Warrior Societies. The most bestial aspects of the cults can be quelled al gusto, but Horali are meant to be terrifying in the first place, so I don't mind them. The Yelm of the Rulebook can be taken as inspiration for the Horse Society, but only if heavily nerfed IMO. In the barbarian lands near Safelster I suspect most horali openly worship war or war-adjacent gods like Humakt, Urox, Orlanth, Tolat, Maran Gor, etc. What this means is: orthodox horali have less rune magic than the barbarians, but better training and organization, and more Wizard support.

The Talars are a whole different breed, however. They may not openly say they are worshipping Orlanth, but in reality they are doing it through their ancestors. I suspect each dinasty has a Burtae/Srvuli which they consider their remote ancestors. If I had to guess, off the top of my head I'd say the most popular ones are Ehilm, Worlath (Aerlit), Ladaral, Magasta (or Wachaza, Diros, IDK, some water god for Pasos for sure), Issaries, LM, Seshna and Tanier. For game purposes, I'd say you can take that cult and go with that, maybe with a little quelling on Rune Magic.

Anyway, those are my two cents.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Jape_Vicho

[metcalph]

To confound matters:

Quote

The Rokari do not offer sacrifice
or worship to any gods except the
Invisible God, but they do worship
lesser beings such as Ascended Masters
and other heroes.

Prosopedia p106

However there's an out.  They already have a history of "reduc[ing] the immortals into mere superhuman heroes or multi-national ancestors" CoR:Lightbringers p81.  I dunno what effect this has on their magic.  My current thinking is that magic that comes from the caster works (ie Lightning) but that magic that comes from elsewhere (ie Thunderbolt or Sunspear) does not.

Basmol: Lion Society

Chalana Arroy:  Xemela, Hrestol's Mom.  

Daka Fal:  Malkion the Old.

Eurmal:  Yomat, friend of man.

Ernalda: Seshna Likita ("It's complicated") 

Gustbran:  Vieltor

Yelamlio/Galin:  Horse Society.  

Humakt: Humct.  Gods of Glorantha described him as a wizard but the Prosopedia has refined him into a sword bearing Erasanchula.

Issaries:  Garzeen.

Orlanth:  Aerlit.  Other names for him - Erulat and Humat - are associated IMO with Ralians.

River God: Tanier.

Storm Bull: Bull Society.  Ordinary I would have thought it was Tawars but Storm Bull gets to Fronela in the Dawn Age and there is a Bull invasion of Seshnela (from Fronela) shortly after that.

Telmor: Wolf Society

Ehilm is a bit of an outlier.  I would have made him another name for Yelmalio but the Prosopedia gives him a doubled fire rune?!  Will have to wait for the Fire Gods Book.

 

[Richard S.]

After some thought, I think I'll start with the following:

Malkion - Daka Fal. Sometimes divided into Talar, Horali, and Dronar subcults. I'm not sure if there's no Zzabur because he's still alive, or if there is but the Zzaburi just don't want to use it.

Seshna Likita - Ernalda. Heavily regulated, but also just difficult to access after the incident.

Seshna - Grain Goddess.

Gerlant, Talor, Xemela, Hrestol, etc. - separate hero cults (imo like spirit cults with priests instead of shamans) with limited common magic and a single special spell each. Hrestol has Joy instead of a spell.

Aerlit - Orlanth Adventurous as an ancestor. Doesn't come with the four magic weapons by default, and with Malkion as the only accepted associate.

Goldentongue - Issaries as an ancestor. Only the titular subcult, and again only Malkion is worshiped as an associate.

Warrior Societies - mostly the appropriate Hsunchen cults. The main exceptions are the horse society, who worship Yelmalio, and the bulls, who have Urox. I don't think any of them will have transform self, and as per usual the associates will be a bit different though idk how yet.

Tanier - the local river god, probably more like Oslira than Engizi imo.

Dormal

Foundchild - added as a Horali approved cult for player-related reasons.

Worlanth, Ehilm, and Humct - Orlanth Thunderous, Yelm, and Humakt respectively. Being bad rebel Erasanchula, they aren't worshiped. Humct gets an occasional exception among the Horali, though always heavily restricted.

Talars worship either Malkion or one of the god-ancestors primarily, and often initiate to a hero cult like Gerlant on the side. A few Talars worship Seshna Likita, serving as the priesthood for the regular Seshna cult. Horali have warrior societies, either Hsunchen or an approved martial god. Dronars worship Malkion and Seshna, with the occasional unapproved barbarian cult and spirit society. Everyone worships the Invisible God, so I didn't list it.

Do the Rokari know what gods are behind the names they use? Sure, but they also know that their way of worshipping them is superior to the barbarian ways and keeps them from being enslaved to the gods. Also a good dose of "see/hear/speak no evil" helps.

Do they have less rune magic than the barbarians? Yeah, but the wizards make up the difference. Sure, the god learners tried to have the best of both worlds, maybe even let the wizards play with rune spells, but any Rokari can tell you how well that turned out.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Richard S.

[Godlearner]

In my mind it boils down to Invisible God and saints (Malkion, Hershal, Dormal, etc) and Ancestor Worship/Spirit Worship (Rune cults). All temples/churches are focused on Invisible God and his saints. Rune cults are are small with not Rune Lord or Priests, are lead by God Talkers and are confined to family/clan/guild.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Godlearner

[Jeff]

On 9/21/2023 at 2:56 PM, mfbrandi said:

I suspect allowing Malkioni with rune magic is a munchkin thing: sorcery is too slow and boring — give me something that goes bang now!

Personally, I think it would be more fun if all the Malkioni said, “There is no god but God — and I am not even convinced that this ‘Malkion’ bloke is his prophet.” But we need a diversity of Gloranthas.

You'd be wrong.

The reason for allowing Malkioni to have Rune magic is in Glorantha the gods and spirits are a fact (we can come up with plenty of interpretations as to what they mean, but they ARE). The Malkioni are humanists and materialists, and blame the gods for the near-destruction of the cosmos. Still the gods can be useful, and in the most important Malkioni myths, men directly interacted with the gods.

The Malkioni philosophers believe that this world belongs to mortal humans, and thus subjugating oneself to a god is dangerous and foolish. The gods are trapped by the Compromise, forever repeating the events of the God-Time and their followers fall into that trap. At the same time, sorcery is a difficult intellectual and spiritual undertaking that requires specialisation and only a small fraction of the population is ever able to become competent with it. Not only that, but the Malkioni of the First and Second Ages conquered many non-Malkioni peoples, who continued to worship their gods and spirits.

[Mark Mohrfield]

That being the case, what distinguishes the Henotheists from the other Malkioni sects?

[Joerg]

4 minutes ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

That being the case, what distinguishes the Henotheists from the other Malkioni sects?

The concurrent worship of these deities with the Invisible God, with the wizards overseeing these rites taking hold of a significant portion of the sacrificed magic (points). Which might result in henotheist shrines requiring a larger crowd or more intense worship to remain active than normal ones.

 

[soltakss]

On 9/20/2023 at 11:08 AM, mfbrandi said:

On 9/20/2023 at 9:24 AM, soltakss said:

Daka Fal variants like Biselenslib and SurEnslib

Interesting. Do you mean that game-mechanically they are Daka Fal variants? In concept, the named entities seem quite different: SurEnslib is quite a grand deity — she “raised the deep earth above the waters and sent the four snakes out to make the rivers and raise the sky” — but poor old Daka Fal is just some dead bloke (not a god, more of a Minos figure).

Ancestor worship has moved on. No longer is it entirely the preserve of Daka Fal, instead some cults have ancestor worship and other magic.

So, both Biselenslib and SurEnslib have ancestor-worshipping properties, , as they are the ancestral deities and their descendants live in their lands. In the same way that Yelm can be seen as an ancestor deity, as males need to have been the sons of cultists, with the exception of being adopted through Yelm the Elder. Similarly, Trolls and Elves have ancestor-worship and Kyger Litor and Aldrya can be seen as aspects, or related to, Daka Fal. That was explicit in RQ2/RQ3 Trollpack, for example.

[radmonger]

My take is that if you tried to use the pc-facing sorcery rules to play an orthodox PC Horali who had full Talar backing, then you would wear out several spreadsheets trying to how many MPs the local Dronars were donating, and which of the rota Zzaburi were available when to cast which spells with what intensity and duration.

But if the sorcery rules do represent what Zzaburi can actually do, then they absolutely would be doing things like that. Not being concerned with playability, any organised society that could organize itself to do so would, Or else lose a war to those who did.

The key to this issue is that presumably much of the same stuff is happening behind the scenes at any theist shrine, as indicated by the temple size rules. But no-one is playing a wyter; they are playing those supported by that wyter. So the player-facing rules are the rune and spirit magic systems. These don't attempt to model the whole magical economy, merely the players interaction with it. So sometimes a worship roll fails, because circumstances outside the player's control means that there aren't the resources available to renew that rune spell this week

This approach means that, to cover say the Brithini, there would be 4 cult writeups, one for each caste. These would provide caste magic, gifts and geases on much the same terms as rune cults. The magic would originate from the sorcerer, not any abstract deity. In the case of active magic apparently cast by the PC, this would just mean the sorcerer used some additional technique to suspend the spell, and transfer control over when it would be unsuspended. Presumably, this can end up being more efficient than using an extended duration.

The thing with all non-immortal sorcery-using societies is that they don't have enough Zzaburi to fully support everyone else. The Brithini and Mostali might have a full range of magic-teaching specialists. One will know 12 spells a leatherworker would find useful, another 13 needed by a glassblower, a third the fifteen blessings required to raise goats. But everyone else is lucky if they have enough Zzaburi to support the basics of sovereignty and defense.

So everyone else is forced to resort to shamanism, ancestor worship and outright theism to fill in the gaps, There are a variety of approaches to how openly this is done, which compromises cause the smallest deviation from the ideal. That variety of approaches drives much of the theological divisions between Malkioni.

 

 

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

That being the case, what distinguishes the Henotheists from the other Malkioni sects?

The orthodox wizards learn sorcery through mental union (Henosis) with the One Mind.  In the RW, they would be neo-platonists.

The Arkati use these methods of mental union to attain conscious with the Gods. In the RW, they would follow Iamblichus.  The Arkati and the Rokari wizards hate each other for various reasons (some phiosophical, others historical).  The Ralians and Seshnegi follow the judgment of their magical leadership in thinking the worst of each other (although these reasons are mainly historical). 

The Carmanians believe the Material World (Corrupt, Evil)  is equal to the One Mind (Good, Pure).  In their RW they would be some hypothetical group of dualistic neo-platonists.  They are too far away for even the Loskalmi to even think about them.

The Jonatelans are orthodox Malkioni.  They differ from the Seshnegi in that they follow the older Hrestoli teachings rather than the Rokari.  They differ from the Loskalmi in that they have not be able to take these teachings to an extreme.  The Loskalmi consider them overrun by gods who have been allowed to run amok.

The Aeolians are similar to the Arkati in belief.  Where they differ is that the Arkati are more cynical in their worship of the Gods - seeing them as means to combat the deceiver.  An Arkati could quite happily consider breaking the tenets of a God that he worships because he's illuminated.  He only choses to do so in secret because past experience is full of the bad things that happened to people who didn't.  The Aeolians are far more devout and would not even think of such a thing.

[Joerg]

Rather than asking what rune spells are available, I am curious who is teaching these rune spells, and how are the sources of these rune spells paid?

Daka Fal as presented in the LIghtbringers still is a cult which uses shamans to call in the ancestral spirits via Axis Mundi. Now shamans are pretty much the antithesis of Malkioni society in Genertela, they have always been presented as the one group of enemy magicians whose dark arts would summon spirits that the wizards aren't really equipped to deal with effectively, whether the Serpent Brotherhood or the White Bear Empire.

 

There has been a schism in Hrestolism between Fronela and Seshnela since Hrestol's return from the Vadeli Isles and him establishing the kingdom of Loskalm in the third decade of History. Hrestol's teachings in Fronela were more advanced than the Seshnegi model, possibly imposing a greater responsibility on the men-of-all than the very adventurous Seshnegi ways that Arkat learned and perfected during his war against Gaalth, the prophet of Nieby/Nysalor in those lands.

Both these ways received the impersonal revelation of the Abiding Book from Jrustela at the time the Return to RIghtness crusade began liberating Seshnela from foreign (Tanisoran, then mercenary) rule. The kingdom of Loskalm wasn't experiencing an existential crisis at the time (yet), and the Loskalmi would have time to study and absorb or critically reject or censor the bits of the Abiding book that would be new to their scripture.

Monastic sorcerers seem to have been a God Learner innovation on Jrustela, quite likely the powerful New Order that was so powerful, imposed on Seshnela during the Return to Rightness Crusade, and in 1050 transplanted into Jonat's nascent kingdom in eastern Fronela. There is no indication how the Fronelan Hrestoli zzaburi were integrated into that society - they could very well have continued the hereditary Zzaburi caste which we also find among the Aeolians, and apparently also a significant amount of Old Seshnegi zzaburi as inherited by the Pithdarans just before the heyday of the New Order led by Pilif the Magus, brought to heel by Saval, the founder of the Middle Sea Empire.

We know about the Brithini sorcerers inhabiting towers to aid them in collecting and maintaining the mana transferred to them by the other castes, aided by Kadeniti city-building feng-shui, but also working when built isolated from the humdrum of that civilization, possibly modeled on Malkion's Citadel of Thought. The archmage of Arolanit inhabits one such glorious tower, there are a few such towers documented in Safelster. (They also make a nifty game piece in the Gods War board game which has a game mechanic for such architecture strengthening the units of the Invisible God faction, at the cost of being incompatible with the temples used by all other non-chaotic factions and the Lunars.)

Kadeniti-invented city planning later was spread by the Jrusteli and can be found wherever they (or the Carmanians propagating the pre-God Learner Fronelan version) influenced the (re-)building of planned cities. (Much like the urban planning of Hippodamos of Milet was found in barbarian Celtic Manching. Angkor Vat might have inherited his methods alongside the spread of the Heracles cult, too, but Mayan, Aztec and Inka urban planning would have to be a parallel evolution.) Ancient cities would have to be re-built fairly often as major disasters would destroy wide areas to the foundations, like earthquakes or major fires, or hostile conquerors and ambitious rulers wishing to leave a mark on history as well as architecture.

 

The modern Kingdom of Seshnela really is the Kingdom of Tanisor claiming a continuation of the legitimacy of the peninsular Kingdom of Seshnela that was destroyed in 1049. The fact that some outlying areas in the lower Tanier Valley were exempt from the curse of transformation into beastman that the Luatha released on the core lands of peninsular Seshnela might be (somewhat maliciously) interpreted as the citizens of lower Tanisor not qualifying as Seshnegi, or it might simply mark the outer extent of their sorcery. (Pasos was hit by the sinking, the fate of the original inhabitants of this part of Seshnela is unclear. The Isles could have been re-settled after the cataclysm. The Tanisoran urge for expansion is documented in the acquisition of the island of Gilboch that the aldryami ceded to the Bailifide princess Gwelenor a few generations ago.

The Rokari movement originated in Leplain, in a border region of Safelster. The majority of the natives are of Enerali or Hykimi (as in Old Beast Alliance) descent rather than of Brithini ancestry, with the exception of the nobility which had been marrying in adventurist men-of-all into old Fornoari nobility. (A noble heritage quite likely shared by one of the greatest kings of Seshnela, Gerlant Flamesword, although an age earlier.) Bailifes and his brothers in arms came from Rindland, the core region of Fornoar and the Autarchy. They might actually have lineages tracing back to the elder children of Nralar leaving their homeland to Jrustela, from conquerors forcibly marrying into Autarchy nobility which in turn may have followed Arkat from Seshnela or even Brithos and mingled with the native solar nobility for a veneer of inheritance of descent from the land goddess for their dynasties.

The Earth Goddess of Rindland and Tanisor would be the Green Lady of Ralios rather than serpentine Seshna Likita, though. Seshna's serpent-legged descendants had expanded all the way into Nolos in the second century, conquering the territories of the two eastern Pendali tribes before their non-Serpent-legged successors lost them to the Pralori. While the Green Lady enjoys serpentine symbolism almost as much as Seshna, only Seshna is depicted with a serpentine tail rather than human legs among the land/grain goddesses.

The Tanisorans clearly have (need for) a rice goddess alongside their spelt wheat goddess. They might have introduced Krala or Miyo from Kralorela during the Second age, or they might rely on Safa (the lake goddess) instead.

[metcalph]

I really don't have a problem with Seshnegi ancestral worship being shamanic.  Seshnela is the centre of the world (so the Seshnegi believe) and has room for all sorts of religious philosophies.  Their armies worship Hsunchen deities and those are still shamanic in basis.  

Yes, the Wizards would have strong philosophical objections to shamanism being the foundation of noble religious belief.  That is over the centuries, why they have undermined the shamans by encouraging the worship of rune cults ("Behold!  Aerlit is actually Orlanth and you can have rune priests and shit.  I haz proof!").  Their experience in transforming ancestral cults into something more palatable to their philosophical sensitivities leads directly into their experiences in remaking the Cosmos as God Learners.  The Wizards might have succeeded in eliminating shamanic influence in the God Learner period - the disasters that resulted is clear proof that the shamans are meant to be.  

Mythically the Seshnegi would explain the conflict by the Wizards being the heirs of Zzabur and the Shamans being the heirs of Malkion the Old*.  Since Zzabur betrayed Maljkion the Old leading to the latter's death and dismemberment, it's little wonder relations between the two are so bitter.   I wouldn't appeal to the three worlds of magic as a source of hostility as there is no prohibition on sorcery usage by Daka Fal at any level in Cults of RuneQuest: the Lightbringers. 

I have seen seen ancestral worship in Seshnela as confined to the nobility historically.  But of late, this has changed not through conscious policy decisions.  The first is that as a reaction against God Learnerism, the Wizards have retreated from playing an active role in moulding society.  They are still willing to do Big Stuff for the Nobles but they have become so haunted by the past destruction caused by their errors that they no longer trust themselves.  The second is that as a result of a lengthy period of peace, the numbers of Nobles in society have increased.  There are too many to be sustained  by traditional means and accordingly many nobles (second sons etc) have seen fit to look for new ways of making a living.  One of these has been the willingness of Shamans to leave the confines of their established temples to establish new shrines among the commoners.  The angry wizards have yet to respond.

*Malkion the Old created the Spirit World to provide Solace (life after death and eventual reincarnation).  There's also Malkion the Law whose existence provides Caste Magic for everybody, Makan who provides sorcery and lastly Malkion the Founder.  I have no idea as yet what role he provides within Malkioni society.

Edited September 28, 2023 by metcalph

[davecake]

On 9/20/2023 at 4:11 AM, metcalph said:

There are still ancestors that are worshipped through the rites of Daka Fal today (I think the local name for him is Malkion the Old but the contempuous wizards call him Daka Fal because of longstanding cult tensions).  A noble would think nothing of worshipping at a temple of Aerlit or Seshna Likita and then going to the priest-shaman of Daka Fal and worshipping some other ancestor instead.

I tend to think that Seshnelan talar ancestor worship isn't usually shamanic, but more restricted and uses mostly normal (Daka Fa) Rune magic without shamans

Spoiler

like the revived First Age cult of Orgorvale Summer from the Dragon of Thunder Hills scenario, which grants Rune spells including Summon Ancestor, Summon Specific Ancestor, and Summon Spirit Teacher

full on shamanism sounds like more of a covert peasant thing, not befitting a noble. 

[metcalph]

7 hours ago, davecake said:

full on shamanism sounds like more of a covert peasant thing, not befitting a noble. 

There have been plenty of RW civilizations in which the nobility practiced shamanism.  Given that Malkion's Solace happens to be proof of the afterlife and eventual reincarnation. I'm really not seeing the need for the "covert peasant thing" snobbery.

Edited September 25, 2023 by metcalph

[Godlearner]

28 minutes ago, metcalph said:

There have been plenty of RW civilizations in which the nobility practiced shamanism. 

You can make an argument that the concept of aristocracy and heraldry are just forms of ancestor worship and shamanic practices.

[Akhôrahil]

On 9/23/2023 at 12:21 AM, metcalph said:

Orlanth:  Aerlit.  Other names for him - Erulat and Humat - are associated IMO with Ralians.

Worlath? Although I don’t get the impression anyone deliberately worships Worlath under that name?

And Ehilm is just the same thing for Yelm, isn’t it?

[Akhôrahil]

On 9/25/2023 at 8:56 PM, metcalph said:

There have been plenty of RW civilizations in which the nobility practiced shamanism.

And with regards to Ancestor Worship, nobles are likely to have cooler Ancestors and keep better track of them, presumably? 

[metcalph]

8 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Worlath? Although I don’t get the impression anyone deliberately worships Worlath under that name?

A Seshnegi would use Worlath to describe the Storm God of Lankst and Delela.  I do think that as a result of the False Gods revolt, the Umathelans worship their Storm God as Worlath.

8 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

And Ehilm is just the same thing for Yelm, isn’t it?

Apparently not according to the Prosopedia.  He has just a doubled Fire rune whereas Yelm also has Life and Death.  There's also Galanin who has a doubled fire rune and a beast which apparently stems from him as the bearer of the Sun Disc, Ehilm.  I have my suspicions about what this all means.

[Joerg]

9 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Worlath? Although I don’t get the impression anyone deliberately worships Worlath under that name?

And Ehilm is just the same thing for Yelm, isn’t it?

The False Gods revolt in late Second Age Umathela had the cults of Worlath, Ehilm and Jogrampur displaying real magic. Not so surprising for Worlath and Ehilm.

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 9/24/2023 at 2:18 AM, Joerg said:

Rather than asking what rune spells are available, I am curious who is teaching these rune spells, and how are the sources of these rune spells paid?

Daka Fal as presented in the LIghtbringers still is a cult which uses shamans to call in the ancestral spirits via Axis Mundi. Now shamans are pretty much the antithesis of Malkioni society in Genertela, they have always been presented as the one group of enemy magicians whose dark arts would summon spirits that the wizards aren't really equipped to deal with effectively, whether the Serpent Brotherhood or the White Bear Empire.

 

There has been a schism in Hrestolism between Fronela and Seshnela since Hrestol's return from the Vadeli Isles and him establishing the kingdom of Loskalm in the third decade of History. Hrestol's teachings in Fronela were more advanced than the Seshnegi model, possibly imposing a greater responsibility on the men-of-all than the very adventurous Seshnegi ways that Arkat learned and perfected during his war against Gaalth, the prophet of Nieby/Nysalor in those lands.

Both these ways received the impersonal revelation of the Abiding Book from Jrustela at the time the Return to RIghtness crusade began liberating Seshnela from foreign (Tanisoran, then mercenary) rule. The kingdom of Loskalm wasn't experiencing an existential crisis at the time (yet), and the Loskalmi would have time to study and absorb or critically reject or censor the bits of the Abiding book that would be new to their scripture.

Monastic sorcerers seem to have been a God Learner innovation on Jrustela, quite likely the powerful New Order that was so powerful, imposed on Seshnela during the Return to Rightness Crusade, and in 1050 transplanted into Jonat's nascent kingdom in eastern Fronela. There is no indication how the Fronelan Hrestoli zzaburi were integrated into that society - they could very well have continued the hereditary Zzaburi caste which we also find among the Aeolians, and apparently also a significant amount of Old Seshnegi zzaburi as inherited by the Pithdarans just before the heyday of the New Order led by Pilif the Magus, brought to heel by Saval, the founder of the Middle Sea Empire.

We know about the Brithini sorcerers inhabiting towers to aid them in collecting and maintaining the mana transferred to them by the other castes, aided by Kadeniti city-building feng-shui, but also working when built isolated from the humdrum of that civilization, possibly modeled on Malkion's Citadel of Thought. The archmage of Arolanit inhabits one such glorious tower, there are a few such towers documented in Safelster. (They also make a nifty game piece in the Gods War board game which has a game mechanic for such architecture strengthening the units of the Invisible God faction, at the cost of being incompatible with the temples used by all other non-chaotic factions and the Lunars.)

Kadeniti-invented city planning later was spread by the Jrusteli and can be found wherever they (or the Carmanians propagating the pre-God Learner Fronelan version) influenced the (re-)building of planned cities. (Much like the urban planning of Hippodamos of Milet was found in barbarian Celtic Manching. Angkor Vat might have inherited his methods alongside the spread of the Heracles cult, too, but Mayan, Aztec and Inka urban planning would have to be a parallel evolution.) Ancient cities would have to be re-built fairly often as major disasters would destroy wide areas to the foundations, like earthquakes or major fires, or hostile conquerors and ambitious rulers wishing to leave a mark on history as well as architecture.

 

The modern Kingdom of Seshnela really is the Kingdom of Tanisor claiming a continuation of the legitimacy of the peninsular Kingdom of Seshnela that was destroyed in 1049. The fact that some outlying areas in the lower Tanier Valley were exempt from the curse of transformation into beastman that the Luatha released on the core lands of peninsular Seshnela might be (somewhat maliciously) interpreted as the citizens of lower Tanisor not qualifying as Seshnegi, or it might simply mark the outer extent of their sorcery. (Pasos was hit by the sinking, the fate of the original inhabitants of this part of Seshnela is unclear. The Isles could have been re-settled after the cataclysm. The Tanisoran urge for expansion is documented in the acquisition of the island of Gilboch that the aldryami ceded to the Bailifide princess Gwelenor a few generations ago.

The Rokari movement originated in Leplain, in a border region of Safelster. The majority of the natives are of Enerali or Hykimi (as in Old Beast Alliance) descent rather than of Brithini ancestry, with the exception of the nobility which had been marrying in adventurist men-of-all into old Fornoari nobility. (A noble heritage quite likely shared by one of the greatest kings of Seshnela, Gerlant Flamesword, although an age earlier.) Bailifes and his brothers in arms came from Rindland, the core region of Fornoar and the Autarchy. They might actually have lineages tracing back to the elder children of Nralar leaving their homeland to Jrustela, from conquerors forcibly marrying into Autarchy nobility which in turn may have followed Arkat from Seshnela or even Brithos and mingled with the native solar nobility for a veneer of inheritance of descent from the land goddess for their dynasties.

The Earth Goddess of Rindland and Tanisor would be the Green Lady of Ralios rather than serpentine Seshna Likita, though. Seshna's serpent-legged descendants had expanded all the way into Nolos in the second century, conquering the territories of the two eastern Pendali tribes before their non-Serpent-legged successors lost them to the Pralori. While the Green Lady enjoys serpentine symbolism almost as much as Seshna, only Seshna is depicted with a serpentine tail rather than human legs among the land/grain goddesses.

The Tanisorans clearly have (need for) a rice goddess alongside their spelt wheat goddess. They might have introduced Krala or Miyo from Kralorela during the Second age, or they might rely on Safa (the lake goddess) instead.

Wow!  A complex yet cogent explanation of the various Malkioni sects and their geography.  I hope something like this with an accompanying map will be in the Sorcery book.

[Richard S.]

9 hours ago, metcalph said:

Apparently not according to the Prosopedia.  He has just a doubled Fire rune whereas Yelm also has Life and Death.  There's also Galanin who has a doubled fire rune and a beast which apparently stems from him as the bearer of the Sun Disc, Ehilm.  I have my suspicions about what this all means.

Ehilm is the Sun Disk, which as far as I'm concerned is essentially the same as being part of Yelm. Him not being associated with Life and Death is probably because his cult didn't have the complete Yelm mythology that other solars did. In any case, I think the power runes for greater elemental gods are pretty flexible, given that HeenMaroun is explicitly a name for Yelm but has Fire/Stasis/Mastery.