Clarification on the timeline

[Moragion]

Hi everyone. First post from a completely uneducated in Glorantha. My exposition to Runequest is based on having played once in high school, way back, where we played some ducks and the gamemaster essentially didn't explain anything to us. Runequest has been always some classic game that was there in the background, but nothing more. Then the new edition by Chaosium came and I got intrigued. After looking a little bit, I fell in love with it: History and Mythology in a Bronze Age setting? Yes please. So I bought every single book, more or less, which I have only been able to browse a little. 

Sorry for the introduction. The question is that I have seen that the rpg books set the date at 1625, but seems like there are older books that deal with years beyond that. So are those books a guide for what it is to come in the Chaosium line? Will the line go on a different direction? I saw there is a book called King of Sartar, which have information about years after 1625, and was thinking about getting it to have a good read and get glimpses of what is to come.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Moragion
Correct double negation

[Richard S.]

King of Sartar is the closest thing to a "canon" future Glorantha has, presented in the format of ancient documents collected by a scholar living in roughly 2200, with plenty of gaps, errors, and misinterpretations. There's a campaign book planned that will roughly follow the course of the Hero Wars as laid out in KoS, but we probably won't see it for a while. In short, I wouldn't worry too much about it. KoS is a good read, but don't take it as definitive gospel for what has to happen in your Glorantha.

[Squaredeal Sten]

The pre 1625 stuff is still playable but may not mix logically with newer adventures that assume the Lunar occupation of Sartar is over.  However note that campaigns like Six Seasons in Sartar, available on Jonstown Compenduoum, span both pre and post 1625 periods.  It is really not a big obstacle for a GM.

Also. it is NOT forbidden to write new pre 1625 material.  

Go ahead and play!

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[g33k]

also worth noting is that the "future history" aka "metaplot" elements are what happens without the PC's getting involved.

One poster here, as I recall, described a long-running campaign where the PC's in Prax short-circuited Argrath's rise, eventually supplanting the Red Emperor in one of the Lunar rituals...  Argrath wound up a petty warlord or bandit-chief, crying in his beer and grumbling, "I coulda bin a contenduh"

[Nick Brooke]

"The ancient chroniclers left biased accounts of those times. Generations of historical philosophers and allegorical poets clouded the issue with new truths. The outcome differs with each telling. What really happened? - the only way to discover that is to experience it yourself."

"Play it now, not then; here, not there; enjoy."

-- White Bear & Red Moon, Greg Stafford, 1975

[Joerg]

The future battles of the Hero Wars are outlined in the old board game White Bear and Red Moon (later re-published as Dragon Pass with different rules, one edition by Chaosium, one by Avalon Hill). The outlined battles in King of Sartar's Argrath Saga section are also in the Guide to Glorantha appendices version of the saga, alongside other prophecies - especially the Takenegi one is of interest.

 

[Malin]

Might also be good to know that the 1625 and onward timeline is in the new edition; earlier editions of the game were set in earlier years. That's why much content is set around 1615 and onwards; that used to be the main timeline before things moved forward.

Some people stick to the old timeline because they want certain things, for example, playing in Dragon Pass or Pavis during Lunar Occupation, or because they want to experience some of the iconic events between 1615 and 1625 for themselves.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Malin

[Moragion]

Thanks everyone for the answers! I didn't know there was something called the Hero Wars. Have seen that there is the concept of HeroQuest. Is it related?

Is not that I have any plans on making any campaign with the game, as right now I am pretty busy with other things, but wanted to read the books and get to know better the world and such, as it looks pretty much like history and ancient mythology, and I love that. In a couple of years perhaps begin something.

Also I just saw that the Mythology book is out. Going to have to get it, to add to the list of "to do".

[Nick Brooke]

16 minutes ago, Moragion said:

Thanks everyone for the answers! I didn't know there was something called the Hero Wars. Have seen that there is the concept of HeroQuest. Is it related?

RuneQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha, p.21:

”The year is 1625. Now begins the long-prophesized period known as the Hero Wars: the fighting around Dragon Pass draws the greatest collection of Heroes in one place the world has ever seen. In these pages, adventurers begin their first steps upon the path to becoming Heroes, to take their places amongst others in the Hero Wars.”

[Zac]

41 minutes ago, Moragion said:

Thanks everyone for the answers! I didn't know there was something called the Hero Wars. Have seen that there is the concept of HeroQuest. Is it related?

The Hero Wars are the battle that @Nick Brooke referred to in his post. A Heroquest is a ritual re-enactment of a god's battle or journey that characters in the setting use to get power and relics to help empower themselves. It is a deep concept that is at the core of Gloranthan cosmology but has been largely missing from the RPG rules.

The Well of Daliath site has a few useful articles

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/websites/moondesign-com/archive-of-of-old-glorantha-discussions-on-moondesign-com/heroquesting-questions/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/greg-sez/types-of-heroquests/ 

[Moragion]

55 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

RuneQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha, p.21:

”The year is 1625. Now begins the long-prophesized period known as the Hero Wars: the fighting around Dragon Pass draws the greatest collection of Heroes in one place the world has ever seen. In these pages, adventurers begin their first steps upon the path to becoming Heroes, to take their places amongst others in the Hero Wars.”

Noted 🙂 As I said, I have only been able to browse the books, have to find time to read them thoroughly.

29 minutes ago, Zac said:

The Hero Wars are the battle that @Nick Brooke referred to in his post. A Heroquest is a ritual re-enactment of a god's battle or journey that characters in the setting use to get power and relics to help empower themselves. It is a deep concept that is at the core of Gloranthan cosmology but has been largely missing from the RPG rules.

The Well of Daliath site has a few useful articles

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/websites/moondesign-com/archive-of-of-old-glorantha-discussions-on-moondesign-com/heroquesting-questions/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/greg-sez/types-of-heroquests/ 

Thanks for the information. Will give those a look to get and idea. Seems also that the new Mythology book will have some info too.

 

[kalidor]

15 hours ago, Moragion said:

Thanks everyone for the answers! I didn't know there was something called the Hero Wars. Have seen that there is the concept of HeroQuest. Is it related?

Is not that I have any plans on making any campaign with the game, as right now I am pretty busy with other things, but wanted to read the books and get to know better the world and such, as it looks pretty much like history and ancient mythology, and I love that. In a couple of years perhaps begin something.

Also I just saw that the Mythology book is out. Going to have to get it, to add to the list of "to do".

My piece of advice, if you want to start a campaign,  start in 1613 with 13 years characters, so no heroquesting or any of that jazz, there are not rules yet and we have a long waiting ahead for them. We have being locked in 1626 for more than there years. Get and use old material until you hit 1625.

[radmonger]

9 hours ago, kalidor said:

start in 1613 with 13 years characters, so no heroquesting or any of that jazz,

A specific version of this is to run or adapt the _Six Seasons in Sartar_ campaign. The big difference is that the first thing the PCs will do is a heroquest; their aduthood initiation.

This demystifies the key thing about heroquests that not everyone gets; they are just a scenario like any other.

[Moragion]

Well, as I said, I don't see myself doing any kind of game in a couple of years, so there is enough time for new books to come over to cover new events. And in any case I will stick to the 1625 as a starting point, as doing otherwise would mean even more research XD But I see your point. If in all these time I have time and opportunity, I will give those older books a look, and perhaps do something in those times when I got more used to the world itself.

[g33k]

7 hours ago, Moragion said:

Well, as I said, I don't see myself doing any kind of game in a couple of years, so there is enough time for new books to come over to cover new events. And in any case I will stick to the 1625 as a starting point, as doing otherwise would mean even more research XD But I see your point. If in all these time I have time and opportunity, I will give those older books a look, and perhaps do something in those times when I got more used to the world itself.

OK... a skeletal outline:

The Lunar Empire, founded by Sedenya the Red Moon Goddess, is a large and expanding polity, founded on prior empires (Carmania, Dara Happa, others).
This Goddess is *new*to*Creation* (most of the other Gods are very much older!).  The Red Moon itself -- the physical orb -- is still inside the world, still within the air; below it is a vast Crater, where Sedenya formed the Red Moon out of the ground.  It is ascending toward the Sky Dome (an actual dome); mythologically, the "sky" and the "air" are entirely-separate and different things!

The Kingdom of Sartar, where Chaosium is setting most of the adventures, largely worships Orlanth, the Storm-God.
Mythologically, Sedenya is fighting Orlanth because she's invading the Air (Orlanth's realm).  Mundanely, the Lunars are fighting Sartar because Sartar sits astride a key route (to the ocean, and ocean trade) that the Lunars very-much wish to access.

This is the mythical & practical conflict upon which the setting relies.

The world of Glorantha has broadly had 3 different "Ages" since the beginning of Time; roughly every 600ish years, there are major wars and catastrophes that screw up most of the the world, and a new Age is born from the ruins.  We are about due, and prophesies call this coming time "the Hero Wars."

===

In the "Classic" books, the official start-year is 1615ish, and the rising Lunar Empire has recently taken Sartar, and beyond it, the plains of Prax with the Zola Fel river giving the much-desired river access.  There's very much a "scrappy rebellion, fighting against occupying army" vibe... or a "civilized people bringing their openness & equality to poor barbarian tribes who oppress their neighbors, their women, and everyone else" vibe, if you prefer that one.

There is a *LOT* of really good, really-playable content in these older editions; many people will recommend these as very-viable approaches!

The newer books have advanced the timeline by a decade; the "Hero Wars" have begun.  A Dragon broke the Lunars in Sartar, and the kingdom is free again; an ex-Sartarite with a huge army of Praxian warriors defeated the Lunars in Prax, and he moved onward to declare himself King of Sartar.  He's now harrying the Lunar flanks as they are busy with other threats (that look to them like bigger problems).
 

===

On an entirely different front, the creator of Glorantha (Greg Stafford) had lost the legal rights to "RuneQuest" but not "Glorantha," and he launched a new game (called Hero Wars; then a new edition called HeroQuest, and then "HeroQuest:Glorantha").  The mechanics of this game were *very* different, and not terribly compatible with Runequest, but the setting was still Glorantha.  This game-system is about to be re-released as "QuestWorld" (and HeroQuest is getting its own new lease on life as an unrelated board-game from Milton-Bradley/Hasbro.

In-game, in-character, the terms "Hero Wars" and "Heroquest" have some specific Gloranthan meanings, which occasionally cause contextual confusion with the specific RPG titles.

Edited October 11, 2023 by g33k

[Moragion]

18 hours ago, g33k said:

OK... a skeletal outline:

The Lunar Empire, founded by Sedenya the Red Moon Goddess, is a large and expanding polity, founded on prior empires (Carmania, Dara Happa, others).
This Goddess is *new*to*Creation* (most of the other Gods are very much older!).  The Red Moon itself -- the physical orb -- is still inside the world, still within the air; below it is a vast Crater, where Sedenya formed the Red Moon out of the ground.  It is ascending toward the Sky Dome (an actual dome); mythologically, the "sky" and the "air" are entirely-separate and different things!

The Kingdom of Sartar, where Chaosium is setting most of the adventures, largely worships Orlanth, the Storm-God.
Mythologically, Sedenya is fighting Orlanth because she's invading the Air (Orlanth's realm).  Mundanely, the Lunars are fighting Sartar because Sartar sits astride a key route (to the ocean, and ocean trade) that the Lunars very-much wish to access.

This is the mythical & practical conflict upon which the setting relies.

The world of Glorantha has broadly had 3 different "Ages" since the beginning of Time; roughly every 600ish years, there are major wars and catastrophes that screw up most of the the world, and a new Age is born from the ruins.  We are about due, and prophesies call this coming time "the Hero Wars."

===

In the "Classic" books, the official start-year is 1615ish, and the rising Lunar Empire has recently taken Sartar, and beyond it, the plains of Prax with the Zola Fel river giving the much-desired river access.  There's very much a "scrappy rebellion, fighting against occupying army" vibe... or a "civilized people bringing their openness & equality to poor barbarian tribes who oppress their neighbors, their women, and everyone else" vibe, if you prefer that one.

There is a *LOT* of really good, really-playable content in these older editions; many people will recommend these as very-viable approaches!

The newer books have advanced the timeline by a decade; the "Hero Wars" have begun.  A Dragon broke the Lunars in Sartar, and the kingdom is free again; an ex-Sartarite with a huge army of Praxian warriors defeated the Lunars in Prax, and he moved onward to declare himself King of Sartar.  He's now harrying the Lunar flanks as they are busy with other threats (that look to them like bigger problems).
 

===

On an entirely different front, the creator of Glorantha (Greg Stafford) had lost the legal rights to "RuneQuest" but not "Glorantha," and he launched a new game (called Hero Wars; then a new edition called HeroQuest, and then "HeroQuest:Glorantha").  The mechanics of this game were *very* different, and not terribly compatible with Runequest, but the setting was still Glorantha.  This game-system is about to be re-released as "QuestWorld" (and HeroQuest is getting its own new lease on life as an unrelated board-game from Milton-Bradley/Hasbro.

In-game, in-character, the terms "Hero Wars" and "Heroquest" have some specific Gloranthan meanings, which occasionally cause contextual confusion with the specific RPG titles.

It is Kallyr who became Prince of Sartar in 1625, not Argrath (yet).

Although I get that the older starting point is an interesting and rich setting, the new one kind of appeals more to me right now, with a new scenario opening, the Empire repelled (for now), and lots of adventure sites, old battlefields, abandoned fortresses, etc... Plus the events of just a few years in the future.

But again, not gonna play any time soon, so will settle for just reading the books and have a good time. Sounds like readying history and legend and I love that.

[soltakss]

On 10/9/2023 at 3:35 PM, Moragion said:

Thanks everyone for the answers! I didn't know there was something called the Hero Wars.

Have a look at King of Sartar, as that details the main part of the Hero Wars. Some people don't like future history to be so detailed, as they feel that it constrains the game too much, but I have run Players through the Hero Wars twice with the Adventurers taking a central part in the action.

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

On 10/11/2023 at 8:55 PM, Moragion said:

But again, not gonna play any time soon, so will settle for just reading the books and have a good time. Sounds like readying history and legend and I love that.

For all newcomers (or returners, I guess) I heartily suggest the Prince of Sartar webcomic. It is on an indefinite hiatus since 2018, but what's there really does an amazing job of setting the tone and feel of the setting.  
http://www.princeofsartar.com/comic/introduction-chapter-1/ 

The second must-read, imho, is the Glorantha Sourcebook. It lays out pretty much all the basics and-then-some of the immediate surroundings of Dragon Pass and its people, which is the focal point of the setting. Lots of mythology in there as well. You might have already read this though, I don't know. 
https://www.chaosium.com/the-glorantha-sourcebook-pdf/

Edited October 16, 2023 by Sir_Godspeed

[Puckohue]

On 10/10/2023 at 8:36 AM, kalidor said:

We have being locked in 1626 for more than there years.

My campaign is in 1627 atm. We've run through a lot of material, both from the new edition and from older, including several published in old fanzines. It's unclear to me why we would be locked in 1626.

[g33k]

On 10/9/2023 at 11:36 PM, kalidor said:

... We have being locked in 1626 for more than there years ...

I don't expect Chaosium to substantially advance the timeline/metaplot (*).

We know the basic shape of things, if we want to lore-delve; but the *players* are supposed be making the future, their characters joining the Hero Wars.

The deeper into the future Chaosium publishes Greg's metaplot, the less and less there is scope for the PCs.

Edited October 17, 2023 by g33k
(*) except for publishing the Great Sartar Campaign aka "Argrathsaga" (AIUI).

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

I don't expect Chaosium to substantially advance the timeline/metaplot (*).

We know the basic shape of things, if we want to lore-delve; but the *players* are supposed be making the future, their characters joining the Hero Wars.

The deeper into the future Chaosium publishes Greg's metaplot, the less and less there is scope for the PCs.

False on both accounts actually. And if you are familiar with Boy King/GPC you should probably be aware that neither Greg nor I view detailing the major events in a setting in time as well as space being something that restricts players from doing their thing. In the contrary, I tend to think it facilitates players being more dynamic in the setting rather than the reverse.

[Moragion]

23 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

For all newcomers (or returners, I guess) I heartily suggest the Prince of Sartar webcomic. It is on an indefinite hiatus since 2018, but what's there really does an amazing job of setting the tone and feel of the setting.  
http://www.princeofsartar.com/comic/introduction-chapter-1/ 

The second must-read, imho, is the Glorantha Sourcebook. It lays out pretty much all the basics and-then-some of the immediate surroundings of Dragon Pass and its people, which is the focal point of the setting. Lots of mythology in there as well. You might have already read this though, I don't know. 
https://www.chaosium.com/the-glorantha-sourcebook-pdf/

Yeha, I have the Glorantha Sourcebook, and was thinking on reading that first as it seems the best point of entry. But will check the webcomic for sure. Thanks!

[Oldskolgmr]

On 10/16/2023 at 12:02 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

For all newcomers (or returners, I guess) I heartily suggest the Prince of Sartar webcomic. It is on an indefinite hiatus since 2018, but what's there really does an amazing job of setting the tone and feel of the setting.  
http://www.princeofsartar.com/comic/introduction-chapter-1/ 

The second must-read, imho, is the Glorantha Sourcebook. It lays out pretty much all the basics and-then-some of the immediate surroundings of Dragon Pass and its people, which is the focal point of the setting. Lots of mythology in there as well. You might have already read this though, I don't know. 
https://www.chaosium.com/the-glorantha-sourcebook-pdf/

The web comic is BRILLIANT! I found the story and art beautiful! 

[g33k]

5 hours ago, Jeff said:

False on both accounts actually. And if you are familiar with Boy King/GPC you should probably be aware that neither Greg nor I view detailing the major events in a setting in time as well as space being something that restricts players from doing their thing. In the contrary, I tend to think it facilitates players being more dynamic in the setting rather than the reverse.

Hmmm.
TYVM, Jeff!

[Moragion]

22 hours ago, Oldskolgmr said:

The web comic is BRILLIANT! I found the story and art beautiful! 

Agreed! I read it after it was suggested in this thread, from beginning to end. The art style is really good. Thanks Sir_Goodspeed for the suggestion!!