Among Sartarites, what exactly is a "noble" and how is it different from the "warrior", in terms of occupations?

[Hellhound Havoc]

I DMed Six Seasons in Sartar a while back and one of the players decided to be a young noblewoman. However, the more we thought about it, the more it seemed like the "noble" is just a Warrior with more cash.

To my understanding, the Sartarite organisation is: Kingdom of Sartar, composed of many tribes, which are composed of many clans. On the most local level, the basic unit - the "village" - is the Clan, right? Like the Red Cow clan, which is part of the Colymar tribe, which is part of Sartar.

So the tribal king of Colymar has his loyal retainers, the thanes, and these men are considered nobles. But each of the clan leaders also has a retinue, and they're also thanes, and they also count as nobles, but all of this seems to be hand picked guardsmen. That is, nobles just seem like knights, or the Anglo-Saxon thane itself - but that is a social class, their occupation would have been "warrior" because the main job of the knight and the Anglo-Saxon thane is to protect their land and their suzerain's lands.

Yet in RQ it is mentioned that the thane "coordinate and speak for their people". So how far down does this goes? Let me give a practical example.

King Sartar gave King Colymar X amount of lands. King Colymar gave the clan Haraborn Y amount of lands. Out of this, a quarter belongs to the chief personally and a quarter to the temple. So the chief distributes his hides, let's say these are 80 hides from a 200 hide clan. The chief can't till all of that alone, and he has 3 sons, so he distributes 40 hides among them (20 for the firstborn, 10 for each brother) so they're not destitute in the event of his death. But these sons can't till that alone either, so they dole them out to other men and so on and so forth. At one point, someone down the line is going to live as a cottar or a free man.

My point here is that these thanes aren't "speaking for their people", they're just protect the land alloted to them, so their occupation is that of Warrior, and their social class is that of Noble. The only true Nobles, it seems to me, are the clan leadership, which can be hereditary so these are people who actually grow apart from other freemen and are groomed to rule. King Colymar's son and Clan Chief Haraborn's son have both more in common with one another than with their free neighbours' sons.

So what am I missing here? Why is Noble a distinct occupation with their own skills?

[Richard S.]

I think you're right in that it's more for people being groomed for leadership, rather than appointed martial positions like thanes. I feel it's more appropriate for Esrolia and Lunar Tarsh, where the ruling class is more distinct. For a Sartarite thane you might want to take the warrior occupation and just change the standard of living to noble. The book does say to tweak the occupations to fit what you need.

[7Tigers]

Did you look at

?

[g33k]

Short answer:

"Nobles" are (or are close kin to) people with political authority, who can make decisions & give orders in general situations.

"Warriors" are not *excluded* from such authority, but it generally only comes when granted by a Noble.
Their only "inherent" authority would be military authority over military subordinates in warbands & armies.

Someone comes to trade with the clan?  Nobles will make decisions... are they allowed to set up?  Where?  Etc.
Another clan sends an envoy to negotiate an issue?  Nobles will negotiate, will accept/reject proposals.  Etc.

[g33k]

3 hours ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

...

Yet in RQ it is mentioned that the thane "coordinate and speak for their people". So how far down does this goes? Let me give a practical example.

...

My point here is that these thanes aren't "speaking for their people", they're just protect the land alloted to them, so their occupation is that of Warrior, and their social class is that of Noble. The only true Nobles, it seems to me, are the clan leadership, which can be hereditary so these are people who actually grow apart from other freemen and are groomed to rule. King Colymar's son and Clan Chief Haraborn's son have both more in common with one another than with their free neighbours' sons.

So what am I missing here? Why is Noble a distinct occupation with their own skills?

Sometimes, a weaponthane will be assigned to help defend a tribe, even to be the warleader.  I'd expect them to be on the Ruling Ring.
Generally, I'd expect the "warleader" to be the most-warlike of the local chief & their children; if not them, then another member of the local tribe; but where there isn't a qualified warleader I can easily see an outsider being assigned to help them, particularly in times of strife or on uneasy borders, etc.
 

Edited October 27, 2023 by g33k

[svensson]

To the OP:

The historical examples from Celtic and Anglo Saxon history, a 'noble' is born within the familial group who are hereditary leaders of a region. There are few, if any, other qualifications. Gaulish and Irish Celts had wide circles of eligible leaders... essentially all the grandsons of the father of the current leader. In a large prosperous noble clan, that could be up 25 eligible leaders, all cousins.

HOWEVER, COMMA, BUT while many were eligible for leadership, each candidate required proven leadership ability in order to attract enough of the tribe to follow him. 'Proven leadership ability' really does depend on several things... tribal traditions, current political situation, and personal qualities [handsome, strong, wise, 'cunning', etc.] all played a role in proving a candidate suitable.

The current tribal leader would usually designate an heir and that heir would have a leg up on the competition, but inheritance of leadership was by no means assured. An ill-favored foolish heir could easily be bypassed by a cousin who had the leadership qualities the clan looks for.

Leadership was not usually won by conquest... that kind of fighting only happened if two contenders were so evenly matched that a battle and/or duel was necessary to decide the outcome.

Warriors /thanes, were the trusted professional warriors of the clan chief. Their job was to patrol the clan's lands, enforce the leader's decisions, provide training and 'squad' level leadership to the clan war levy [the 'fyrd' or clan host], and to protect the people of the clan. Most of these men were not eligible to be clan chief, but were absolutely necessary to the reputation of the chief... 'Rannulf is a cunning warrior and a wise man. If he follows Gerd willingly, there must be something to the man.'

[French Desperate WindChild]

the issue I faced on this point is the status (social position) versus the occupation (job position)

there is something in the rules about the status : the standard of living , well designed (aka I have nothing to change for my taste) p 422 of the core rules

So for me, in any culture where you can change your sociale class (orlanthi as example) you can be considered as a noble if your standard of living (what you pay, what you show) is 200+Lunars

Of course in a rigid culture (Yelm without Red moon, maybe even with Red moon) you are noble only if your family is noble or if the great leader decides that now you are noble

And don't forget the cult which is important too to define your role.

Then, in my Glorantha at least, you may have a noble (status) merchant (occupation) of issaries (cult), or a noble (status) warrior (occupation) of orlanth (cult)

if you  start the game with a young character, change (occupation) by (parent occupation) but that is exactly the same, you learn from one of them

 

you can see then 2 "default noble" (aka std of living) occupations, the noble (aspect war and leadership) and the priest (aspect cult and leadership).

As the start it means a young character have learnt from their parents* one of the two often activities of a noble : lead the war/clan (occupation noble) and lead the cult/clan (occupation priest)

* note that if your pc was cared by the temple, you may have learn the skill of the priest occupation even if your parents are/were not with the noble status. The noble status there is the temple which protected you

 

Any combination is possible to define your role in the society

 

noble (status) merchant (occupation) of issaries (cult). You may decide to focus your activity on business and let someone more spiritual lead the cult. So you are not a priest. However you are probably god talker and have some responsability (in all cases, as a noble you should show that you have Issaries favor !) You may be the official clan trader, if there is no temple of Issaries in the clan

noble (status) noble (occupation) of issaries (cult). You may decide to focus your activity in politic more than business or spiritual lead. So you are not a priest, not a merchant. War is part of your duty, but you like to lead negociation (orate noble + issaries) and plan the clan supplies

noble (status) priest (occupation) of issaries (cult). You may decide to focus your activity in the cult, you love to teach skills to young people, to organize the community of merchants, to plan the clan supplies, etc...  Maybe you love to have authority on other merchants because your position, even if your skills would not allow you the same power...

noble (status) noble (occupation) of orlanth (cult). You may decide to focus your activity on negociation with other clans and outsiders. Of course war is part of negociation but not only. Of course when the war you lead a part of the warriors clan, maybe you are the war leader. Of course some would dislike war with the same "tryptich" and other would prefer war than anything else. There is no rules, only examples

noble (status) noble (occupation) of humakt(cult). You may decide to focus your activity on negociation with other clans and outsiders. Of course war is the best part of negociation but sometimes , few times not only and you will probably not be in charge of this rares cases . Of course when the war is come, you lead a part of the warriors clan, maybe you are the war leader. You love to organize, to plan and to train others.

noble (status) warrior (occupation) of any war god(cult). You may decide to focus your activity on war. Other, more patient than you will negotiate before you are involved (or too often they succeed to decide that first the clan must negotiate and if it fails then you will play). You love to fight, to train yourself and other, to show how strong, skilled andpowerful you are. You love to see respect and fear in the eyes of the others. And what a pleasure to show your well designed, full of jewels armor and sword ! In combat you don't lead other with your words but with your acts. The fighters will be courageous not because you tell them to be but because you show them how they must be.

standard (status) warrior (occupation) of any war god(cult). You may decide to focus your activity on war.You don't have to decide when and how war must be followed. You applies the orders. You train yourself and other, you guard and protect daily the clan or your boss . Maybe you are an adventurer, no or few responsability for your clan. Maybe you are a mercenary, responsability for your company

standard (status) noble (occupation) of any war god(cult). You are not rich or your dislike to show your wealth or you are just prudent and want to save a lot of money for your old days/your family in case of.... You are rarerly involved in the decision of the clan but you can advice the leader. When it is war time, or when you are in a mercenary company, you are in charge of other warriors you lead them and follow the plan of the war/company leader .

 

Just some examplesand no restriction 🙂

 

 

 

[Hellhound Havoc]

15 hours ago, svensson said:

To the OP:

The historical examples from Celtic and Anglo Saxon history, a 'noble' is born within the familial group who are hereditary leaders of a region. There are few, if any, other qualifications. Gaulish and Irish Celts had wide circles of eligible leaders... essentially all the grandsons of the father of the current leader. In a large prosperous noble clan, that could be up 25 eligible leaders, all cousins.

HOWEVER, COMMA, BUT while many were eligible for leadership, each candidate required proven leadership ability in order to attract enough of the tribe to follow him. 'Proven leadership ability' really does depend on several things... tribal traditions, current political situation, and personal qualities [handsome, strong, wise, 'cunning', etc.] all played a role in proving a candidate suitable.

The current tribal leader would usually designate an heir and that heir would have a leg up on the competition, but inheritance of leadership was by no means assured. An ill-favored foolish heir could easily be bypassed by a cousin who had the leadership qualities the clan looks for.

Leadership was not usually won by conquest... that kind of fighting only happened if two contenders were so evenly matched that a battle and/or duel was necessary to decide the outcome.

Warriors /thanes, were the trusted professional warriors of the clan chief. Their job was to patrol the clan's lands, enforce the leader's decisions, provide training and 'squad' level leadership to the clan war levy [the 'fyrd' or clan host], and to protect the people of the clan. Most of these men were not eligible to be clan chief, but were absolutely necessary to the reputation of the chief... 'Rannulf is a cunning warrior and a wise man. If he follows Gerd willingly, there must be something to the man.'

@svensson I understand the mechanics of Anglo-Saxon and Gael governance relatively well tbh, I just didn't think they'd play too much because those are very distinctly not Bronze Age peoples. We know so very little of the Germanic Bronze Age, all we can do is extrapolate from Roman Sources and from Late Antiquity / Early Medieval Christian monk sources. I thought Sartar was closer to Greece? And I'm not familiar with that to be sure, but now that I think of it, I'd expect to see more city-states, or the Mycenaean "quarters" or whatever was the name of the thing.

[Joerg]

19 minutes ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

@svensson I understand the mechanics of Anglo-Saxon and Gael governance relatively well tbh, I just didn't think they'd play too much because those are very distinctly not Bronze Age peoples.

Neither are the Greek poleis or their triremes that dominate the naval warfare of the Mirrorsea Bay. Finding any genuine Bronze Age culture or technology in Glorantha will be about as hard as finding evidence for potatoes.

 

19 minutes ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

We know so very little of the Germanic Bronze Age, all we can do is extrapolate from Roman Sources and from Late Antiquity / Early Medieval Christian monk sources.

We have quite good genetic and isotope evidence from the Lech Valley about the patrilocal local farming nobility and the impressive migrations of their wives. While that does not give us the leadership hierarchy in greater settlements, greater settlements emerged only rather late in this region, or the Carpathian basin. Quite an Orlanthi situation.

The written sources deal with Germanic Iron Age, with possibly the most appropriate report the description of the Nerthus cult on the Cimbrian peninsula.

 

19 minutes ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

I thought Sartar was closer to Greece?

Greece (and Ionian Anatolia) with its endless coast line and heavy naval element to their cities is about the worst model you can have for Sartar. This goes for the Mycenaean citadels, too.

Greek parallels are about some of the advanced equipment, although that paralel is stronger for Pelanda (nowadays Carmania).

 

19 minutes ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

And I'm not familiar with that to be sure, but now that I think of it, I'd expect to see more city-states, or the Mycenaean "quarters" or whatever was the name of the thing.

The Silk Road settlements might be the best analogy for the Sartarite cities in terms of economy. While not at all Bronze Age, the mercantile cities of the Hanseatic League on the German rivers - many of these newly founded - have a similar economical raison d`être. They lack the City Rex office, though.

[radmonger]

noble status: a ruling cult[1] feels an obligation to support you at an elevated living standard. This usually comes from exceptional performance in adulthood initiation and other personal-level heroquests. All rune lords are of noble status; the cults that don't support rune lords are those that don't provide a route to nobility.

noble occupation: you spend a significant part of your day to day life dealing with the concerns of those who labor to  support that elevated lifestyle.

If you have noble status, then not only is someone is doing the work implied by that status, but someone else is managing and organizing those workers. if you are a noble, this could be you; it could also be your sibling, spouse, or priest. I don't think the Orlanthi have the kind of hierarchical society where that work could be delegated to a steward, let alone the kind of letting agency a modern landlord might use.

This logic of self-defending rural farming communities applies as well to the atomic age as it does to the bronze age

[1] one risk with some interpretations of the RQ:G rules is assuming they imply a rigid separation of cult and state. Whereas it is more true that the structure of ruling cults (including Orlanth) is the structure of society, into which other cults fit.

 

 

 

[Nick Brooke]

17 hours ago, Joerg said:

Neither are the Greek poleis or their triremes that dominate the naval warfare of the Mirrorsea Bay. Finding any genuine Bronze Age culture or technology in Glorantha will be about as hard as finding evidence for potatoes.

Nonsense. Potatoes turn up in both our foundational sources, White Bear & Red Moon and Cults of Prax. You’ve been listening to Potato Boy’s quixotic blandishments: snap out of it!

[Scotty]

Please see Nobles in RQG.

[Jape_Vicho]

Simple answer, occupations don't really mean anything in Glorantha, they're only mediums for RuneQuest to make it possible for us to experience Glorantha. The Noble occupation is just a set of guidelines to make characters, but doesn't accurately represent the nobility in one specific homeland. The noble occupation represents people who don't have to work (farm, herd, trade directly...) to live. Of course they do stuff, they manage their households, rule, fight... 

In Sartar, nobles don't have a special legal status, unlike in the Lunar Empire, which makes them somewhat complicated to understand. At first glance, Heortling society seems pretty democratic, but once you look at it in detail, you see that they function more like a mixed oligarchy. In the Colymar Tribe, a polity of some 12.000 people, close to all tribal power is held by around 5 families which perpetuate in power whenever they can (we can have a glance at this in the GM Adventure Pack). In regular (1.000 members) sized clans, I expect a couple of bloodlines to hold most effective power. In summary, kings, chiefs and priests are usually kin of other kings, chiefs and priests. This of course can and does change. In Peloria I imagine we could find some lineages that can credibly trace a credible patrilineal descent from an already noble lineage in the Dawn, and most lineages have held power for at least a couple of centuries. In Sartar, OTOH, I expect no lineage that was great and powerful during the colonization to still exist, having long split in many different bloodlines, thus splitting their political power and riches and waning as a result. 

Of course, an adventurer of humble upbringing can be a hero of renown and become a man or woman of great power, but this is very rare. Certainly neither Leika or Kallyr did, both being part of very powerful and rich lineages. 

The thing is, as I said, in Sartar this people don't really have any special status. Of course they do when they are doing their jobs as rulers, but outside of that, legally they're just regular citizens, even the lineage of Sartar wasn't above this. Instead, in Sartar (and I assume most orlanthi lands) there are just roughly 3 legal status determined by bloodline:

-Citizens: Freemen, called Carls. Their ligeage holds land, can become part of the Ring and be Thanes.

-Semi-free: A bunch of "castes" like Cottars, Stickpickers and others. They don't have political rights and possibly even different civil rights, and are usually bonded to a Carl lineage. Despite this, they CAN become chiefs, priests or even kings, there is no legal block for it, and they can marry members of the Carl class, their children inhereting usually their father's status in the case of Sartar. 

-Unfree: Slaves, usually POWs or bought from praxians (in Sartar). In Sartar and other orlanthi nations if the slaves have children they're usually accepted into the clan as semi-free members. 

BTW, the Sartars didn't give any land to any tribe or clan. Those were already established long before Sartar, and their Tulas (owned lands) are just for the clans to care for. No proud Sartarite clan will stand for a ruler who treats their land as his own, that's what the tyrants like the Pharaoh and Red Emperor do! The Sartars just coordinated clans through diplomacy (and a wee bit of force), built roads and collected tributes, but they were far from feudal land-granting kings. In the local level, I think we can see it as the cultivated land having "3 owners". First there's the Carl lineage or individual citizen, who is the effective owner; then the clan, who is the "default" owner, who decides which land is worked and who is it given to; and then the local earh temple, who holds all land in theory through the prerogative or Ernalda, who IS the land, and for this they collect a tribute from all land. Many temples directly hold land too and have many tenants and slaves, but I don't think the clan or tribe do hold land directly, and the Sartars have no say in any of this. 

[Techpriest]

Typically you can split warriors into two classes in the bronze age: part time, and full time.

Most warriors in Sartar are likely the first class. This is farmer militias, skirmish infantry, wealthy carls, and town defense forces. They often have another job to go along with their warrior tasks, and earn their money mostly from that occupation. These people tend to be members of the community, and the poorer operate as skirmishers while the wealthier may be as well or even better armed and armored than some noblemen or thanes. Cotters and Carls both are represented here, and more militant ones in game can be easily represented by the Noble occupation, or by any of the warrior sub-occupations. Otherwise, take any other baseline and slap more weapons skills on it. 

The second class is full-time warriors. These are thanes, the retainers of thanes, clan champions, mercenaries, and sometimes wandering holy men and women of a warrior god or goddess. Their job is to be ready to do violence on others, and they're typically pretty good at it. They tend to have better equipment, and operate as heavy cavalry or heavy infantry, though of course mercenary light cavalry and light infantry are not uncommon. Usually, their upkeep is paid for by the local clan or clan leaders, or the tribe. This can be represented from either the noble occupation or the warrior one, though for local nobility like thanes, most probably fall into the Noble occupation. For other warriors their primary source of work is acting as the guard or retainer of a noble or temple, but they also help with tending the fields or herding when conflict is unlikely. Any warrior occupation could take this - maybe you are paid a stipend by the village to be a guard and don't really do much else in the way of work - Light Infantry or Heavy Infantry can easily represent this, and it lends itself naturally to being an adventurer. 

Mercenaries can swing between things. They might be temple warrior mercenaries, paid for by a temple to a god, but getting their upkeep handled by a third party for the duration of a campaign. Think the Sun Dome Templars and some warbands of Humakt and Orlanth. Their upkeep in normal times is paid for by land owned by the temple, but in war or upon hire, they get cuts of loot, payment to the temple, and other incentives to fight for the group the temple is supporting. Other mercenaries make their living as bodyguards or caravan protection. A few light horsemen can dissuade bandits or sniff out ambushes, light infantry can march alongside caravans pretty regularly, and having some heavy infantry in your caravan if you're expecting trouble can do wonders. 

EDIT: As for other kinds of mercenaries, those are likely bands that start around either a noble, or a group of retainer warriors that have disagreements with their employers and decide they'd like to try their hand at more freelance work. Mercenaries are incredibly useful in a society that can't otherwise support large, state ran armies, and as supplementing forces. Sartar likely doesn't have a lot of natively raised and trained cavalry - mercenaries from the Grazelands or Prax can fill this need on campaign. Again, they're not really easy to fit into any other category of society other than 'mercenary'.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Techpriest

[Joerg]

12 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Nonsense. Potatoes turn up in both our foundational sources, White Bear & Red Moon and Cults of Prax. You’ve been listening to Potato Boy’s quixotic blandishments: snap out of it!

Finding White Bear & Red Moon still is hard. Cults of Prax has become easier, but short of doing a pdf text search, you need to know about Teelo Norri orphanages to have an idea where to look. In the CoRQ series, the potato blight seems to persist, but we will know more when the next volume is out.

Complaints about absent tubers will hopefully be some of the worst criticism of the Lunar volume...

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

you need to know about Teelo Norri orphanages to have an idea where to look

Not only is the great spud abolition taking food out of the mouths of the poor, it is Light Son abuse: if they cannot deny themselves potatoes while others tuck in, what have they left to live for?

Spoiler

Come @Hellhound Havoc’s geographical revolution, no one will be lined up against the wall and shot, but possibly some spoilsports will be force-fed raw potatoes … by a giant anteater. 😉

[Hellhound Havoc]

13 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

In the local level, I think we can see it as the cultivated land having "3 owners". First there's the Carl lineage or individual citizen, who is the effective owner; then the clan, who is the "default" owner, who decides which land is worked and who is it given to; and then the local earh temple, who holds all land in theory through the prerogative or Ernalda, who IS the land, and for this they collect a tribute from all land. Many temples directly hold land too and have many tenants and slaves, but I don't think the clan or tribe do hold land directly, and the Sartars have no say in any of this. 

Wouldn't this make a Carl lineage into a Cottar lineage in like 3 generations?

Say I'm a Carl, I hold 2 hides of land, I have 3 beautiful sons. I distribute these 2 between the oldest ones, and the third one works on one of his brothers farms.

All of the three have kids, no one distinguishes themselves enough to have more land assigned to them, and maybe one of them finds success by going to the neighbouring clan or tribe and finding a woman of status willing to marry them, but if the sons of the third son don't do that, then they're basically out of the lineage, aren't they? And if they reach the majority while their father is still alive - hell, if I'M still alive - then where do they work? There's just not enough land or cattle to require all those hands.

I can see, however, if my neighbour has a couple hides and doesn't have enough sons and needs someone to work that land because... well, someone's gotta plow. And that might be a mechanism of all the same families holding power, as you mentioned, but on a smaller scale, inside the clan.

[Hellhound Havoc]

54 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Come @Hellhound Havoc’s geographical revolution, no one will be lined up against the wall and shot

Oh I wouldn't count on that if I were you! 😛

[radmonger]

37 minutes ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

Say I'm a Carl, I hold 2 hides of land, I have 3 beautiful sons.

If every father has 3 sons (who live to adulthood and pass the initiation rites), the clan is tripling in size per generation, which is obviously unsustainable.

Relevant myth (from Prince of Sartar):

Quote

 

Hengall was the second son of King Vingkot, Orlanth’s regal son. His mother was the Summer Wife, but he was born at night when the Dragon’s Head was blotted out by the Sky Gorp. When he was born, the Third Mother give him a star for a heart.

Hengall was poisoned with a drink which caused him to grow huge. After one day of growth he was larger than a long house. Despair filled him. He knew he could not find sustenance without starving his brethren, and so he departed to fight against Predark, alone.

 

In a stable clan,  it would be relatively rare for two sons of a carl to both be allocated land. The happy ending to that situation is one of them qualifies as a thane or priest.

[Hellhound Havoc]

10 minutes ago, radmonger said:

If every father has 3 sons (who live to adulthood and pass the initiation rites), the clan is tripling in size per generation, which is obviously unsustainable.

True, but it takes pretty much just one Chalana Arroy and Asrelia or even Ernalda cultists to bless the birth, then the children, then hunt the disease spirits, and done, the bloodline is safe.

That said, that myth really is quite applicable because I think that's basically it: if you're raised as a warrior and there's not enough land or cattle for you at home, either you very quickly steal some from the neighbouring clan (and since cattle raids are established as a regular summer thing, that's the most likely to me), or you go off on your own to make something for yourself with the blessings of your kin. The Orlanthi have a past of adventuring, after all, and that was a thing in viking society, which the Orlanthi borrowed quite a bit.

So if your dad says "sorry bud, you're the 4th son and there's just not enough stuff here for you", I think it's reasonable to assume that the son will keep his chin up and go wander.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

Wouldn't this make a Carl lineage into a Cottar lineage in like 3 generations?

Say I'm a Carl, I hold 2 hides of land, I have 3 beautiful sons. I distribute these 2 between the oldest ones, and the third one works on one of his brothers farms.

If you use Salic inheritance laws rather than Saxon ones where the farm never is divided, yes.

I think that Orlanthi land ownership is by the household, but a household may very well be three brothers jointly managing two hides. Yes, only one of them will be the household head, but all three of them would share the status, and their children, too, at least while they stay in the household. 

(The RQG annual catch-up calculations go haywire when you have two player characters from the same household, like siblings or a married couple.)

There are alternatives for supernumerary offspring - they can enter the service of a noble or a temple, they can become mercenaries or otherwise adventurers, they can enter some business, possibly in one of the cities, or they can be married off into other clans to a partner with appropriate standing.

And yes, in the third generation, the descendants of the original three brothers will only be second cousins, which might not be enough kinship to glue them together in the stead management. But then, there have been few cases of three generations avoiding periods of severe attrition by war or natural calamities, with households going extinct, owned land becoming exhausted and new arable land having to be assigned anyway.

A high status household may still have people with a normally lower status occupation enjoying the ostentation and reputation of the household member with the highest status.

 

1 hour ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

All of the three have kids, no one distinguishes themselves enough to have more land assigned to them, and maybe one of them finds success by going to the neighbouring clan or tribe and finding a woman of status willing to marry them, but if the sons of the third son don't do that, then they're basically out of the lineage, aren't they? And if they reach the majority while their father is still alive - hell, if I'M still alive - then where do they work? There's just not enough land or cattle to require all those hands.

There is always work for lazy hands. Cattle can be won (and lost) in cattle raids. People can go pursue a career of great deeds or far travels, acquiring wealth and fame if they are lucky or at least making a living until they settle down for their old age with some of their kin or offspring.

Quite a few Orlanthi are serial monogamists, engaging in year marriages (or repeated year marriages), often alternating between the birth clans of the marriage partners. People volunteering for sacred year marriages may join many other clans during their lives, usually leaving some offspring behind when they return to their birth clan or adoptive clan. Few will be as prolific as Harmast whose sacred job as rainmaker during Lokamayadon's and Palangio's drought on the Heortlings had him enjoying different female company in other clans on a weekly basis, leading to more than a dozen Harmastsons during the later phase of the Gbaji Wars when Harmast finally brought Arkat to his homeland while his many sons had reached (early) adulthood. While all of them shared the same father, legally they were not "kin" as they belonged to different communities.

 

1 hour ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

I can see, however, if my neighbour has a couple hides and doesn't have enough sons and needs someone to work that land because... well, someone's gotta plow. And that might be a mechanism of all the same families holding power, as you mentioned, but on a smaller scale, inside the clan.

Households will usually be a subdivision of the elusive term "bloodline", with some parts of the bloodline struck by disasters while others thrive, so offspring may be lent to a bloodline with fewer adults remaining.

Since most clans belong to tribes that are part of a city confederation, there is always the tribal manor in the confederation city or the tribal manor in Boldhome which may take on supernumerary clan members, too, providing (high status) service to the City Rex or even the Royal House. Some (often not that close) bloodline kin may have entered an urban guild and might pave some of the offspring's way into their own or a friendly urban guild. Your average bloodline will have a member or more as a follower of the tribal king or the confederate City Rex in the confederate city, and another or more associated to the tribal manor in Boldhome. Quite a few may have kin in Nochet, too.

Finally, there is the Wanderlore custom - basically a midlife crisis entry to the life of adventuring for people who remain single or got divorced from their offspring. Such people will move around and might visit their kinfolk (from their own bloodline, or simply from their own clan) married off to a multitude of other clans in Sartar or even further away.

And, as @radmonger says, there are positions in the clergy or the military for supernumerary offspring - in both cases often becoming a sworn companion of a leader in a cult or a clan, tribal or even kingdom noble, and not necessarily inside Sartar. Right now, there is that Argrath person in Pavis gathering a whole army of ambitious followers. A few years ago, Broyan's Volsaxi court was the place to go for an ambitious young person. There are renowned holy people in distant places like Trilus who are on the lookout for able companions, too. Some people might even go to one of the Provincial Universities in Furthest or Mirin's Cross and study the lore of the Lunars, whether with the blessing or against the will of their (in the latter case former) household heads.

Followers of Torath Manover wishing to settle down might switch their allegiance to the royal house of Trilus, or join Joh Mith's trading empire and act as local agent of Djimm Mith now that he has taken over the caravan route of his father, or travel alongside Djimm. If Bluebird managed to clear his name in your Glorantha, your new center of operation might become New Crystal City instead of Trilus. Or your former chosen leader may have been Goram Whitefang, and now you are left with a few heartbroken and dispossessed followers of Goram whose Boldhome pride has become all but annihilated. Sure, they go howling and hunting on Wilddays clad only in their own fur, but the rest of the week they may be solid brothers and sisters in arms. Many a descendant of Sartar fraternized with their kin among the Telmori guards, like Prince Salinarg (before he became Prince) or the daughters of Terasarin. This goes for the kinfolk in Karse and Nochet as well. It is almost weird that Temertain failed to get an assigned werewolf guard in Seapolis, or maybe that worthy lost their life in a Wolf Pirate raid or a Lunar assassination early in Temertain's career.

[Hellhound Havoc]

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Finally, there is the Wanderlore custom - basically a midlife crisis entry to the life of adventuring for people who remain single or got divorced from their offspring. Such people will move around and might visit their kinfolk (from their own bloodline, or simply from their own clan) married off to a multitude of other clans in Sartar or even further away.

Sounds like a fun premise to a campaign: our wives and husbands left us, our kids are all grown up, so it's just us, booze, and the road to Pavis now!

But seriously, amazing answer. I reached some similar conclusions in my response just 5 minutes ago but not to this degree of detail. I'd also forgotten about the city confederation thing, and yeah, historically speaking cities were population sinks needing constant migration from the rural areas - exactly these sons and daughters who didn't have anything to look for in the future.

[Joerg]

10 minutes ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

So if your dad says "sorry bud, you're the 4th son and there's just not enough stuff here for you", I think it's reasonable to assume that the son will keep his chin up and go wander.

Especially since supernumerary stay-at-home children are unlikely to receive a marriage partner from the clan matchmaker. While they may go around having fun with bed wives (even from among their own clan, outside of the immediate bloodline), sons would not have legally recognized offspring. Stay-at-home daughters add their children from such flings to the offspring group of the household (which they might be in charge of anyway), as the concept of core families taking care of their own children is rather rare in Orlanthi society. There are few households which are not extended family, with live-in cousins or elderly aunts or uncles.

You also overlook attrition by famine or other calamities like warfare, and entering a prince's building force (maintaining existing royal roads and fortifications, or participating in new projects fortifying or connecting their kingdom).

Edited October 30, 2023 by Joerg

[Squaredeal Sten]

58 minutes ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

Wouldn't this make a Carl lineage into a Cottar lineage in like 3 generations?......

if no one distinguihes himself or at least has enough political pull to occupy a landed office, then a descent to carl status but not to cottar. 

If Daddy can generate enough surplus during his lifetime to give each son a plow and oxen, then the Earth temple will find the son some land.  The temple's interest is in getting all the land plowed and sown.  Most of the non-Adventurer carl population (therefore most of the clan's households) are in this situation, hereditary farmers. 

The temple and the Ring have no interest in pushing the carl families down to cottar status, and clan politics will work against doing that.   The high taxes of the Lunar occupation might push things that way, but post-Dragonrise, no.

 

[Joerg]

2 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

if no one distinguihes himself or at least has enough political pull to occupy a landed office, then a descent to carl status but not to cottar. 

This. Unless he gains a comparable companion position from Argrath (or possibly from Vasana when she becomes Wind Lord and head of a temple) or becomes a temple leader himself, Harmast from Vasana's Saga will be demoted to freeman (carl) status upon the death of his thane father.

 

2 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

If Daddy can generate enough surplus during his lifetime to give each son a plow and oxen, then the Earth temple will find the son some land.  The temple's interest is in getting all the land plowed and sown.  Most of the non-Adventurer carl population (therefore most of the clan's households) are in this situation, hereditary farmers. 

"Hereditary farmer" can also mean rancher or breeder in clans with a higher focus on herding. A high status herder in charge of a group of clan herdsfolk without the stabling or the place to store winter fodder may oversee the herding and hay-making efforts for his "hide" from the clan settlement most of the time even when the herds and the care-taking herdsfolk are on the high/distant pasture transhumance.

 

2 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

The temple and the Ring have no interest in pushing the carl families down to cottar status, and clan politics will work against doing that.   The high taxes of the Lunar occupation might push things that way, but post-Dragonrise, no.

My experience as clan chieftain in The Fall of the House of Malan showed me that a lot of supposed nobles requiring to prove their wealth for maintenance of noble status may fake it (other than paying taxes) by loaning or recycling ostentatious items or spending a lot of time as guests of other nobles to save on expenditures, repaying the hospitality with gifts of self-composed poetry or symbolic gifts.

Imagine a Varmandi "thane" with little more than a single hide to his household (which will be managed by a sibling or offspring) pestering tribal nobility like Asborn or leaders in the tribal "cities" of Runegate and Clearwine with their guesting, singing praises of their previous hosts (thereby indicating that they will do so about their current host at their next host, hoping to receive a higher status guest status from that). Already the freeman carl households are expected to host a guest or two most of the time, and may draw on an extra basic food allowance for such guests while they are actually there as that serves the status of the entire clan, tribe and confederation. Probably as often, such parasitic guests may receive a lower level of hospitality with both sides pretending to accord the higher status one, or being served inferior produce rather than the high quality reserved for real high status guests. "The longer the stay, the more sinews in your meat." Or possibly tripe rather than meat, which you may graciously pass on to one of the alynxes while enjoying at least the porridge. Pretention is part of that game.

Hey, maybe this might be a small Jonstown compendium project - a small number of such "desperate status" guests you may encounter at your own table or at your host's table, and plot hooks for interaction with them.