Ransom in Lunar Occupied Prax

[ChrisWentWhere]

So one of my players has ended up with the captain of a Lunar Patrol as a prisoner having surrendered to him after the rest were killed or fled. The PC is a Humakti and the surrendered officer a Carmanian Cataphract (I know not very likely but I thought it would be fun). They are in Prax near Horngate.

I am going to enjoy the inevitable disagreements about what should be done with said prisoner between those who want to string him up and the Humakti (who everyone is terrified of, with good reason). The Humakti is skint and lacking in armour to add some temptation. 

Of course he might decide to just kill him and be done with it. I have made it clear that this is not an honourable course of action which will have detrimental consequences. 

I will have the Carmanian suggest that he simply returns him to Pavis where his temple will pay his ransom but I think (and will have an NPC suggest) that anyone doing that will just be treated as rebel scum and crucified. 

Am I being in reasonable in this? 
How would such ransoms occur? Perhaps in Pimpers Block (which would be a whole new adventure of course). 
But even there I have the vexed question about how this actually happens without endangering the rebel...

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. 

[metcalph]

If he travels to New Pavis with Lunar prisoners in tow then any Lunar troops are just going to relieve them of their captives without paying any ransom.  I'm sorry but the Lunar Empire makes the rules.  

The wisest bet would be to remain with the captives at Horngate and send a messenger to New Pavis to give instructions on where the ransom can be paid.  You might have to pay the local Praxian temple a small cut of the ransom but not even Halcyon Vor Enkorth is going to be stupid enough to... okay, he might be.  

Sending the captives to Pimpers Block runs the risk of meeting the Sable tribe which considering you have their allies is not going to end well.  By all means, encouage them on this path.

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, ChrisWentWhere said:

I will have the Carmanian suggest that he simply returns him to Pavis where his temple will pay his ransom but I think (and will have an NPC suggest) that anyone doing that will just be treated as rebel scum and crucified. 

Ransoms are in many ways sacrosanct. People honour ransoms and do not capture people asking for ransoms. In any case, the Herald subcult of Issaries can be used to facilitate ransoms. In fact, in my Glorantha, the trading cults (Issaries, Etyries, Argan Argar, and Lokarnos) are the ones who allow ransoms to be paid. If ransoming is made too difficult, or too dangerous, then it won't happen and the alternatives are either execution, prolonged imprisonment or being set free, none of which are as acceptable as ransoms.

 

[ChrisWentWhere]

7 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Ransoms are in many ways sacrosanct. People honour ransoms and do not capture people asking for ransoms. In any case, the Herald subcult of Issaries can be used to facilitate ransoms. In fact, in my Glorantha, the trading cults (Issaries, Etyries, Argan Argar, and Lokarnos) are the ones who allow ransoms to be paid. If ransoming is made too difficult, or too dangerous, then it won't happen and the alternatives are either execution, prolonged imprisonment or being set free, none of which are as acceptable as ransoms.

 

Ah yes I like that. There happens to be an Issaries initiate in the party too. I was even going to suggest the Herald Subcult to him at some point! (He’s a really rubbish merchant…

[ChrisWentWhere]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

If he travels to New Pavis with Lunar prisoners in tow then any Lunar troops are just going to relieve them of their captives without paying any ransom.  I'm sorry but the Lunar Empire makes the rules.  

The wisest bet would be to remain with the captives at Horngate and send a messenger to New Pavis to give instructions on where the ransom can be paid.  You might have to pay the local Praxian temple a small cut of the ransom but not even Halcyon Vor Enkorth is going to be stupid enough to... okay, he might be.  

Sending the captives to Pimpers Block runs the risk of meeting the Sable tribe which considering you have their allies is not going to end well.  By all means, encouage them on this path.

Yes they are in a bit of a no win situation in a way. Ha ha ha… the look on their faces when he surrendered was priceless.

This is still in the Sor Eel period. If they do manage to get to Pimper’s Block is it under the control of the Sable Tribe I wonder…

I quite like having the opportunity of having one of the enemy among them who they have to look after but also have to listen to while he tries to convince them of the benefits of the Lunar way on their journey across Prax, having to go round the Eiritha Hills of course.

I wonder if they wait at Tourney Altar and the Issaries Merchant acts as an emissary…

[Nick Brooke]

2 hours ago, ChrisWentWhere said:

I wonder if they wait at Tourney Altar and the Issaries Merchant acts as an emissary…

Sounds perfect. Base themselves at a Humakti holy place, and collect the ransom there. SOMEONE will be watching the transaction closely and making sure nobody gets any silly ideas…

[ChrisWentWhere]

50 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Sounds perfect. Base themselves at a Humakti holy place, and collect the ransom there. SOMEONE will be watching the transaction closely and making sure nobody gets any silly ideas…

As I understand it the Praxian Holy sites are left alone as part of the terms of the armistice of Prax so I assume there is no Lunar garrison there. But the messenger will need to travel to the nearest sizeable temple (Boldhome?) and arrange the ransom there. Correct?

This is a nobleman but as the temple is arranging it I wonder if they would be prepared to pay the full wack as it were?

[French Desperate WindChild]

4 hours ago, ChrisWentWhere said:

This is still in the Sor Eel period

that's the most important

now your pcs are criminals (from a lunar perspective)

that means if they go to Pavis or in any area controled by lunat, if they are recognized (aka reputation roll) they will have big issue with any lunar patrol. I would even consider that, once the officer is freed, the authority will launch a hunt against them to avenge the insult (and maybe the deads). Same way if they learn what happens, even without the officer

 

4 hours ago, ChrisWentWhere said:

I wonder if they wait at Tourney Altar and the Issaries Merchant acts as an emissary…

seems to me good, anywhere there are no lunar troop is a good place to "bargain". And sending a issaries, or any herault well known to not be a criminal (so not a pc) is in my opinion the only option. Except if your pcs lead a big army... But if that 's just a group of 4-10-20 it is nothing compared to the lunar army.

 

now some outcome you may like :

- the officer is not liked by the authority (find a reason) who will not pay. Does the prisoner know that ? Does he tell them there is no hope ?

- the authority will send some scouts to follow the emissary and organize an ambush when they identify the pcs (if they can)

- all the pc, the humakti included, should know that if the officer is released he will be able to describe the pc so now they should migrate or hide themselves for a long time

- the officer is very appreciated by the authority (find a reason). Does the prisoner know that ? Does he tell them his price is higher than expected ? Does he threat them that dady family will pay not only a ransom but some "pc hunters". Does he tell them that mum is the high priestess of any darkness sect of sorcerer-murderers ?

- the officier is recognized by some praxians as the responsible of the death and slavery of their wives / children. As a prisoner he is under the pc's responsability. The praxian clan (or tribe ?) expect the pc to surrender him to them. The honor should be to refuse... But facing a khan, two stormkhans, three shamans and 20 warriors a little bit... angry, is a  (fair) challenge

 

[ChrisWentWhere]

Yes indeed, although they are not known criminals yet. But they are with some rebels and white bulls already who will all put some pressure on the Humakti to finish the officer off. It is just easier that way. Except for the Humakti of course. He will suffer for such dishonourable behaviour. A fork in the road perhaps.

I do like all your suggestions. More problems on the horizon perhaps are always useful but I might just hold the outlaw option for now.

I have written this officer to be a recent arrival from Carmania (mainly so he can be a completely unsuitable fully armoured Cataphract in the hot desert Sun wielding a two handed lance because the players had no idea what to make of it!) and is a fish out of water - despised by the now dead patrol and defeated by sheer fluke, hating Prax, . He is not that keen to return to Pavis. He is very honourable. If he swears an oath not to reveal the people who caught him will that suffice. (Although his cowering squire might have other ideas). Of course this conflicts with his loyalty to the Red Emperor, and devotion to the Red Goddess. But he surely recognises that the Humakti will pay a price in terms of how he is regarded by the others (many of whom will regard his as a traitor no doubt). There is no easy solution to this!

Who knows maybe they will become friends  on their journey. Something like 3:10 to Yuma or a dozen other westerns…!

just out interest is there some reason under Sor Eels governorship they are more likely to outlawed than under Halcyon var Enkorth’s? Because the latter was too busy lining his own pockets?

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, ChrisWentWhere said:

Just out interest is there some reason under Sor Eels governorship they are more likely to outlawed than under Halcyon var Enkorth’s? Because the latter was too busy lining his own pockets?

I doubt that's what FDW meant, it's more that this is when Prax is still under Lunar rule. The empire's reaction wouldn't be much different under Halcyon's brief governorship, except that he'd be more likely to try to make a personal profit on the deal somehow, even at the prisoner's expense. (What am I saying? Especially at the prisoner's expense!)

[g33k]

I honestly wouldn't screw too much with the ransom.  It's a feature of the setting, so it should largely work as-described.

I mean, if they're stupid (like, "parading their prisoner through Lunar-held territory before negotiating ransom" level stupid) then yeah, that's like hauling a wagon of silver through bandit-held territory.

But once the ransom is negotiated... 

Think of it this way:  if the Lunars begin routinely screwing people over ransom, then everyone will just start routinely killing Lunar prisoners and/or not accepting surrender.  Even the Humakti will be like, "no... you lot do not honor your surrender..." STAB

[ChrisWentWhere]

41 minutes ago, g33k said:

I honestly wouldn't screw too much with the ransom.  It's a feature of the setting, so it should largely work as-described.

I mean, if they're stupid (like, "parading their prisoner through Lunar-held territory before negotiating ransom" level stupid) then yeah, that's like hauling a wagon of silver through bandit-held territory.

But once the ransom is negotiated... 

Think of it this way:  if the Lunars begin routinely screwing people over ransom, then everyone will just start routinely killing Lunar prisoners and/or not accepting surrender.  Even the Humakti will be like, "no... you lot do not honor your surrender..." STAB

Yes that’s true…

[Rodney Dangerduck]

There is a fair chance that the Carmanian Hazar is himself an initiate of Humakt.  Especially if he is more "old school". 

Otherwise Yanafal, another highly honorable cult.

[ChrisWentWhere]

53 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

There is a fair chance that the Carmanian Hazar is himself an initiate of Humakt.  Especially if he is more "old school". 

Otherwise Yanafal, another highly honorable cult.

I was going to assume it would YT but Humakt is even better!

[French Desperate WindChild]

14 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

I doubt that's what FDW meant, it's more that this is when Prax is still under Lunar rule.

yes, with the option depending personal reliationship, reaction could be very strong, or just the minimum

14 hours ago, g33k said:

I honestly wouldn't screw too much with the ransom.  It's a feature of the setting, so it should largely work as-described.

in fact it depends if you (the table, the gm) want to play something or consider it just as a sub-event. In the same way, some tables will act the bargain for any bargain, when other will just say "ok, we are in the town, let's see the core book to know how much money we make with our plunder".

Everything (even a weapon broken) can be seen as an opportunity to play (or not to play). I like the idea of playing this issue because that's more social, impacting the future, confronting passions (honor, hate, ...) and rational (what will be the impact)

but, for example, i dislike to describe every time too much the opponents with a lot of details (hairs, colors, size...) and I will not spend a lot of time to sell the plunder every scenario's end. When other may want to describe each person pc meet or "bargain" between player en gm each sell.

 

14 hours ago, g33k said:

Think of it this way:  if the Lunars begin routinely screwing people over ransom, then everyone will just start routinely killing Lunar prisoners and/or not accepting surrender.

but is there any "routine" ? I mean that's not like every week twenty lunar patrols are attacked -and defeated- in Prax. If yes that means lunars have some prisoners and hostages (lives) to exchange too... and with their magic... and "monsters", it would be easy to "calm down" a region (Have you yet seen Cwim ? no ? oh what about an opportunity to meet the bat's priests ! a "recruitment drive" could be organized next season if you wish )

[Nick Brooke]

Ransoms are routine transactions, routinely honoured. Screwing around with ransoms is a gross violation of civilised norms, one that invites retribution from your own side as much as it does from your enemies. You just escalated, and fucked up something good that lots of people depend on. Don't be surprised if spirits of reprisal start to plague your community. Take a hit to your Honour, and any Loyalty that seems relevant.

[ChrisWentWhere]

Ok so I think I am going to play it like this: the PCs pretty much all have high Hate (Lunar Empire) passions but not as high as the leader of the rebel outlaws they are currently with (largely by accident). That leader (Anya, exiled Sartarite) wants the captive dead and forcefully argues that they will all end up nailed to a cross if they don’t just kill him. The captured Carmanian argues in his most reasonable tones that this is not the case we honour all such agreements etc. But who do they believe…?

If they are really worried he will suggest that they could take him to Tourney Altar and conduct the negotiations with the authorities in Boldhome or Swenstown. He really hates Pavis and would give him a way to relocate. (Bit dodgy I know…but they haven’t been there and I thought it would be fun!)

If he were a Humakti who would those negotiations be with I wonder? He has no nearby family of course. The 7 Mothers are not relevant, I assume. The Temple of Humakt? Or the military administration?

I am also assuming that his ransom as a Noble (1000L with his family) will be very different from his ransom as a Lunar Officer (250L from the Temple or military authorities?). He has some pretty expensive gear which I am sure will be eyed up…which the Humakti PC will also need to protect!

[Cassius]

5 minutes ago, ChrisWentWhere said:

If they are really worried he will suggest that they could take him to Tourney Altar and conduct the negotiations with the authorities in Boldhome or Swenstown. He really hates Pavis and would give him a way to relocate. (Bit dodgy I know…but they haven’t been there and I thought it would be fun!)

If I were them, I'd refuse. It would waste too much of their time. And administration being administration, they might get the reply: "This person has not been assigned to our services, please contact the military command in Pavis." 😁

[ChrisWentWhere]

20 minutes ago, Cassius said:

If I were them, I'd refuse. It would waste too much of their time. And administration being administration, they might get the reply: "This person has not been assigned to our services, please contact the military command in Pavis." 😁

That is a good point…

[radmonger]

6 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Screwing around with ransoms is a gross violation of civilised norms, one that invites retribution from your own side as much as it does from your enemies.

However, there is nothing in those norms that says a ransom has to be paid in cash, The default lunar playbook when a ransom is demanded for captured troops is to take an equal ransom value of hostages from the clan or tribe of those making the demand. If such a hostage exchange is accepted, no further action is necessary. 

If anyone refuses such a deal, they are clearly outlaws, and so subject to summary justice without compensation.

[g33k]

On 1/7/2024 at 8:22 AM, radmonger said:

... The default lunar playbook when a ransom is demanded for captured troops is to take an equal ransom value of hostages from the clan or tribe of those making the demand. If such a hostage exchange is accepted, no further action is necessary. 

If anyone refuses such a deal, they are clearly outlaws, and so subject to summary justice without compensation.

Cite, please?

This looks like the kind of "playing fast and loose with ransom" that would just automatically get all captured Lunars killed...
 

[Akhôrahil]

On 1/7/2024 at 11:07 AM, ChrisWentWhere said:

Ok so I think I am going to play it like this: the PCs pretty much all have high Hate (Lunar Empire) passions but not as high as the leader of the rebel outlaws they are currently with (largely by accident). That leader (Anya, exiled Sartarite) wants the captive dead and forcefully argues that they will all end up nailed to a cross if they don’t just kill him. The captured Carmanian argues in his most reasonable tones that this is not the case we honour all such agreements etc. But who do they believe…?

There's another giant risk here - even if the ransom exchange goes off without a hitch (which might well happen), the person they just released is under no obligation to shut up about them. So it's perfectly possible that the exchange goes fine, but now there's witnessing, identification, and people sent to hunt the PCs down like the rebels and troublemakers they are.

This in turn could potentially be altered by getting an oath from the captive.  Doubly so if backed up with an Oath spell.

(Or in a perfect world, you could have a trickster in the party who  gets some murdering done so the rest of you won't have to. 🙂 )

Edited January 9 by Akhôrahil

[Shiningbrow]

On 1/6/2024 at 7:01 PM, soltakss said:

Ransoms are in many ways sacrosanct. People honour ransoms and do not capture people asking for ransoms. In any case, the Herald subcult of Issaries can be used to facilitate ransoms. In fact, in my Glorantha, the trading cults (Issaries, Etyries, Argan Argar, and Lokarnos) are the ones who allow ransoms to be paid. If ransoming is made too difficult, or too dangerous, then it won't happen and the alternatives are either execution, prolonged imprisonment or being set free, none of which are as acceptable as ransoms.

 

I'm sure I've just recently re-read that ransoms are paid when other alternatives aren't likely to succeed (or make things worse). Obviously, this usually means a rescue attempt.

I won't challenge the concept that once the terms are negotiated, it becomes sacrosanct, but before then anything goes.

 

But, it also means that if this captain has the honour that's suggested, he *may* demand the ransom be paid even if he is rescued (if there's anyone left to pay it to). It would also mean that if they do take him through Lunar occupied territory, and they get themselves surrounded, he may tell them not to interfere and to pay the ransom he's staked his life on. (of course, what happens after that??)

 

I think ultimately the question comes down to how important you, the GM, sees this little episode being in the greater scheme of things... where do you want things to go from here?? Have you figured out if this captain or Anya are going to be relevant people in the future? Do you want the Lunars on their backs? Do you want them to have 1000L?? Do you want to cause grief for the Humakti?

[ChrisWentWhere]

Thanks for everyone’s input in the end they just let him go with a promise not to tell anyone…he seemed pretty honourable. Players eh…

[Darius West]

8 minutes ago, ChrisWentWhere said:

Thanks for everyone’s input in the end they just let him go with a promise not to tell anyone…he seemed pretty honourable. Players eh…

This was quite likely the best outcome for all concerned.  The Carmanian doesn't want the opprobrium of a defeat, and the Humakti doesn't want to be crucified.  A promise among honorable warriors is pretty binding, especially if everyone's face is saved.